Bob Nersesian guest again
We solicit your questions for Nersesian
Quote: billryanI'd love if you could have ZK on ,as well, so Bob could dissuade him from his new path of trying to get rich off casino policies. I imagine Bob would enjoy destroying stupid theories one after the other and would make for entertaining radio.
Bob, in case you're not following the ZenKing story, he is a counter considering bringing a formal complaint to Gaming over what he perceives as preferential shuffling in blackjack when the count is good, as evidenced by him increasing his bet. Everybody, except ZK, says he has no hope of winning but if he fights it on principle, what would Bob's advice on how to go forward and would Gaming even hear him out?
Quote: HomelessnycDefinitely would like to hear Bob's thoughts on the ruling on Borgata v Gemaco
Yeah, will Gemaco fork over that huge $27 liability or will they appeal?
Gets back 10 mil from ivey
And sues gemaco for ten mil?
Quote: darkozIsnt borgata attempting to double dip
Gets back 10 mil from ivey
And sues gemaco for ten mil?
Sadly the typical thought process is sue everyone and let the courts sort it out
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-03-29-big-fish-casino-ruled-illegal-in-washington
http://fox6now.com/2018/03/08/judge-declares-gas-station-phone-chargers-to-be-illegal-gambling-machines/
As Nevada is the only state I am aware of that allows this type of prosecution, I wonder whether other states would refuse to honor the warrant as the offense complained of is not a criminal offense under their own laws?
What exactly is your question?
Looks like a very helpful read, worth the price.
Actually forget it. I dont trust one word he says. Ill do the research myself like always.
Quote: ZenKinGAsk bob whether or not cashing chips from one casino at another casino allows the 2nd casino to id you. Another bluff.
Actually forget it. I dont trust one word he says. Ill do the research myself like always.
Lmao you don't trust the most respected gaming attorney in the market. Smh.
Quote: JohnzimboAsk Bob how it feels to be the second best gambling law expert now
I didn't understand your comment for a few minutes but now I get it.
A bit over a year ago, I experienced a barring at a Nevada casino. In this barring I was surrounded by security and was told to admit I was counting. In addition, I was asked for my ID, was requested to step into a back room after security stepped between me and the front door, and was also asked for a photo. Thanks to your written work, I knew what to do and also what not to do. I kept calm, didn’t admit to anything, didn’t reveal any of my personal information, and calmly but firmly told security I was just going to walk out the front door and leave. After a few minutes of back and forth, I was allowed to step past the security guard and leave.
My question is this: Do you think this casino was ignorant of the law, or do you think they were hoping that I was the ignorant one and would comply with everything they wanted me to do? This happened in 2017 and I find it hard to believe a non-Indian casino would still attempt these kinds of antics.
Quote: darkozIsnt borgata attempting to double dip
Gets back 10 mil from ivey
And sues gemaco for ten mil?
Gemaco owes Borgata $27 lol
http://www.nj.com/atlantic/index.ssf/2018/03/card_maker_in_phil_ivey-borgata_flap_liable_for_27.html
When I read your post, in my head I heard $27Million.Quote: GlenGGemaco owes Borgata $27 lol
http://www.nj.com/atlantic/index.ssf/2018/03/card_maker_in_phil_ivey-borgata_flap_liable_for_27.html
But it’s just 27 BUCKS? LOL!
Quote: hitthat16Do you think this casino was ignorant of the law, or do you think they were hoping that I was the ignorant one and would comply with everything they wanted me to do?
I'm not Bob but my money is on the former, that they knew the law and were hoping you didn't.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but:
1. Only a member of law enforcement can demand your identification. Even there, I think they have to have a reasonable suspicion you broke a law. Of course, anybody can ask for it but demanding it requires a much higher bar to jump over. A casino security guard certainly does not qualify as "law enforcement."
2. If you didn't break a law, casino security cannot prevent you from leaving if you say that is what you want to do. Casinos have been known to pay six-figure settlements or judgments to AP's for violating this.
I’m also pretty sure that only law enforcement can demand ID. Even then, they shouldn’t be sharing it with the casino if that is not your desire. (Although I’m sure 9 times out of 10 the officer that shows up will hand it right over to the casino.)
This security guard was pretty close to not letting me leave. His exact quote is a bit fuzzy in my memory but I remember him saying something like “You’re putting me in a tough spot because I really need you to come with me to the security office.” It was only after he got a second opinion from someone in plain clothes (don’t know what job this particular man might have had in the casino) that he finally granted my request to get out of there.
Regardless, I wasn’t about to go the back room. They would have had to force me. I’m glad it didn’t come down to that. I’ve heard it takes quite a long time to reach a settlement in these cases. :)
Quote: hitthat16It’s also my suspicion that they knew the law and were hoping I didn’t. I’m sure they think a counter in their 20s might not know the do’s and don’ts in a barring. Even more bizarre is they already knew my information. I had a player’s card there from when I was young (21) and dumb. They wanted me to hand over ID despite this fact.
I’m also pretty sure that only law enforcement can demand ID. Even then, they shouldn’t be sharing it with the casino if that is not your desire. (Although I’m sure 9 times out of 10 the officer that shows up will hand it right over to the casino.)
This security guard was pretty close to not letting me leave. His exact quote is a bit fuzzy in my memory but I remember him saying something like “You’re putting me in a tough spot because I really need you to come with me to the security office.” It was only after he got a second opinion from someone in plain clothes (don’t know what job this particular man might have had in the casino) that he finally granted my request to get out of there.
Regardless, I wasn’t about to go the back room. They would have had to force me. I’m glad it didn’t come down to that. I’ve heard it takes quite a long time to reach a settlement in these cases. :)
Figure between 3-5 years for a settlement
But you are in your 20,s so while 5 years seems long its not
I mean an hour of backrooming and five years later you get a quarter million. Not too bad :))
Quote: hitthat16Bob,
A bit over a year ago, I experienced a barring at a Nevada casino . . .
Good question and we'll use it. It's just that when you address a letter in a thread I started to "Bob," I make the assumption that you're talking to me! And when you tell me incorrectly what I wrote in "my" book, I get confused for a moment.
Functioning competently as a senior citizen is tough sometimes!
Quote: darkozFigure between 3-5 years for a settlement
But you are in your 20,s so while 5 years seems long its not
I mean an hour of backrooming and five years later you get a quarter million. Not too bad :))
More than one of the players who've been on the show after collecting some amount of money from a casino for something like this have said afterwards that the process was tedious, no fun, and not worth it.
If you "know" somehow that it's going to be $250,000, that might be a light at the end of the tunnel to make it all worth while. Sometimes players lose these cases. Sometimes the settlement is $10,000. You just don't know.
I was at the blackjack ball a few years ago, in the buffet line standing next to Nersesian. A player who thought it was "easy money" to get backroomed approached Nersesian and wanted to know what he should do to encourage this to happen. Nersesian told him to find another attorney. Nersesian wanted no part of any case where the player was actually angling to get backroomed in order to get a settlement.
Quote: hitthat16Bob,
A bit over a year ago, I experienced a barring at a Nevada casino. In this barring I was surrounded by security and was told to admit I was counting. In addition, I was asked for my ID, was requested to step into a back room after security stepped between me and the front door, and was also asked for a photo. Thanks to your written work, I knew what to do and also what not to do. I kept calm, didn’t admit to anything, didn’t reveal any of my personal information, and calmly but firmly told security I was just going to walk out the front door and leave. After a few minutes of back and forth, I was allowed to step past the security guard and leave.
My question is this: Do you think this casino was ignorant of the law, or do you think they were hoping that I was the ignorant one and would comply with everything they wanted me to do? This happened in 2017 and I find it hard to believe a non-Indian casino would still attempt these kinds of antics.
You should just do what i do. I just troll the security guards and pit bosses and have a big smile on my face everytime this happens. This annoys them to no end because the happier you seem at a backoff, it takes out all the joy for them in kicking you out. Psychology 101. These casinos are powerless just like the police(for the most part) and both rely on intimidation and lies to give up your rights and they know it.
You dont even have to identify yourself to the police unless you committed a crime or they have reasonable suspicion that youre about to commit a crime, but some states even if they have suspicion youve commited or are about to commit a crime, you still do not have to identify yourself to police such as in California. This all depends whether or not the state has 'Stop and Identify' statutes in place, that are also known as Terry Stops and if they suspect you of a crime or are about to commit a crime, you must identify yourself to the police. Nevada does have a stop and identify statute, but they still have to suspect you of a crime, they cant just make up an excuse, even though they might try. Always record every interaction with police and make sure you let them know youre recording and ask if its ok because some states say its illegal for you to record a police encounter.
Regarding requests for id from the casino, the best thing ive learned to do is just say that you dont have id on you. You want to be as less confrontational as possible and If you say something like 'i dont have to give you anything' that will just escalate the situation and they'll keep pestering you. After you tell them you don't have any id, they then they tell you that you have to be 21 to be in the casino and then you just tell them 'ok ill just leave, thanks' and that's it.
Quote: ZenKinGYou should just do what i do. I just troll the security guards and pit bosses and have a big smile on my face everytime this happens. This annoys them to no end because the happier you seem at a backoff, it takes out all the joy for them in kicking you out. Psychology 101. These casinos are powerless just like the police(for the most part) and both rely on intimidation and lies to give up your rights and they know it.
You dont even have to identify yourself to the police unless you committed a crime or they have reasonable suspicion that youre about to commit a crime, but some states even if they have suspicion youve commited or are about to commit a crime, you still do not have to identify yourself to police such as in California. This all depends whether or not the state has 'Stop and Identify' statutes in place, that are also known as Terry Stops and if they suspect you of a crime or are about to commit a crime, you must identify yourself to the police. Nevada does have a stop and identify statute, but they still have to suspect you of a crime, they cant just make up an excuse, even though they might try. Always record every interaction with police and make sure you let them know youre recording and ask if its ok because some states say its illegal for you to record a police encounter.
Regarding requests for id from the casino, the best thing ive learned to do is just say that you dont have id on you. You want to be as less confrontational as possible and If you say something like 'i dont have to give you anything' that will just escalate the situation and they'll keep pestering you. After you tell them you don't have any id, they then they tell you that you have to be 21 to be in the casino and then you just tell them 'ok ill just leave, thanks' and that's it.
Good advice for a part time counter looking to be confronted and enjoys “trolling the staff with a big smile”. Not so much help to those actually working hard counting, making money and staying out of the spotlight.
Bob D, if ratings potential matters to you, please book ZK with Bob N.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI've heard many times that returning to a place that has trespasssed you, you can now be charged with burglary.
This is the first time I've heard that.
Quote: WizardThis is the first time I've heard that.
Well, I've heard it on COPS on more than one occasion, so take it with a grain of salt. It very well could be city/state dependant too.
Quote: IbeatyouracesWell, I've heard it on COPS on more than one occasion, so take it with a grain of salt. It very well could be city/state dependant too.
Cops? Like bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do cops? Is that show still on? Do people still throw their cell phones at the police then run?
I'll research what Reno 911 has on the topic and update everyone. ;-)
Quote: IbeatyouracesWell, I've heard it on COPS on more than one occasion, so take it with a grain of salt. It very well could be city/state dependant too.
It would seem easy to beat a burglary charge if you never attempted to steal anything.
Burglary is illegal entry into a building with the intent to commit a crime.
The intended crime is usually, but not always, theft.
For example, if I break into a building and set it on fire, or assault the occupant that is burglary without theft.
In the case of someone having been trespassed from a casino and then returning at a later date I can see how a burglary charge and successful conviction could be made as the unlawful return (a new trespass) is a crime, and the return after being trespassed would constitute illegal entry into a building.
It makes sense conceptually, but I've no idea whether it flies in Las Vegas.
Quote: MrVMaybe not.
Burglary is illegal entry into a building with the intent to commit a crime...
Thank you. The best argument is one you lose, because at least you learned something, which seems to be the case here (for me).
From www.merriam-webster.com:
Definition of burglary
: the act of breaking and entering a dwelling at night to commit a felony (such as theft); broadly : the entering of a building with the intent to commit a crime
I hope not just for the fact but they seem like the same crime. If the crime is to be on the premises, then entering the premises is the only intent. Anyting so vague always irritates me, for example driving somewhere right now, nobody can really prove my intent is without some self incrimination. Seems a little unfair for there to be laws relying on self incrimination.Quote: MrVMaybe not.
Burglary is illegal entry into a building with the intent to commit a crime.
The intended crime is usually, but not always, theft.
For example, if I break into a building and set it on fire, or assault the occupant that is burglary without theft.
In the case of someone having been trespassed from a casino and then returning at a later date I can see how a burglary charge and successful conviction could be made as the unlawful return (a new trespass) is a crime, and the return after being trespassed would constitute illegal entry into a building.
It makes sense conceptually, but I've no idea whether it flies in Las Vegas.
In the same way if the probability of something occurring was 499 times out of 500, if the probabilities were not known, people would assume the 499 was 500. Even if they knew about the one time, they probably wouldn't believe it if someone would do one thing one time out of 500.
Not to mention for a formal trespass even if they legally could, police have to be present and I would be out of there before they arrived because casinos cant backroom you for counting since it's not a crime and they have no right to hold you.
Their only chance would be to make up some bizarre fake story to then try and hold me in a backroom by saying they think i have a computer in my shoe or something, but casinos would be playing with fire if they did that because they better have legitimate suspicion to accuse me of that. You cant just falsely accuse someone at will for your own agenda. That would be a settlement waiting to happen.
So someone please go ahead and tell me how ill ever be formally trespassed by a casino for counting.
Ill wait....
Quote: ZenKinGNot to mention for a formal trespass even if they legally could, police have to be present ...
This is the first I've heard the police must be present. Can anyone else confirm or deny?
Quote: WizardThis is the first I've heard the police must be present. Can anyone else confirm or deny?
No they don't have to be.
trespass law guide
I must assume their knowledge of relevant trespass law is greater than ZK's.
Quote: BobDancerGood question and we'll use it. It's just that when you address a letter in a thread I started to "Bob," I make the assumption that you're talking to me! And when you tell me incorrectly what I wrote in "my" book, I get confused for a moment.
Functioning competently as a senior citizen is tough sometimes!
Bob D,
I appreciate that you’ll feature the question on the show with Bob N. I’m looking forward to hearing the perspective from both Bobs. :)
If a casino surrounds you with security so you cant leave the premises however does not backroom you i.e. imprisons you for the space of say an hour but on the gaming floor only while they conduct an investigation is this still grounds for a lawsuit
Is a casino smart enough not to backroom able to circumvent possible lawsuits this way
Also if the investigation was triggered by a jackpot payout and the casino refused payout while conducting said investigation i.e. they have you surrounded with security so yoh cannot leave for 3 reasons 1)they took your id ostensibly to pay a jackpot and wont give it back 2) you are waiting to be paid and 3) they are claiming they are trespassing you for the future
(Yes i had this happen to me within the last few months. Outcome they refused payment and i called the gaming commission rep who forced them to pay me on the spot. I received nothing but a verbal trespass and police were never summoned. It was a weird imprisonment because i felt i both could not leave if i wanted to and didnt want to leave as i wanted my jackpot payout)
Quote: IbeatyouracesI've heard many times that returning to a place that has trespasssed you, you can now be charged with burglary.
Well you can always be charged. Whether it stands is a different matter.
Most casino security feels anyone not supposed to be in a casino is stealing from them. I.e. if you are not supposed to be there you are attempting to take their money which is theft (except if you win it legit under the law it is not theft something casinos have difficult time understanding)
Quote: darkozWell you can always be charged. Whether it stands is a different matter.
Most casino security feels anyone not supposed to be in a casino is stealing from them. I.e. if you are not supposed to be there you are attempting to take their money which is theft (except if you win it legit under the law it is not theft something casinos have difficult time understanding)
Here's the thing. Once you get trespasssed, returning can be considered breaking and entering even through the place is open to the public. And since you now attempted to commit a crime (trespassing), burglary can now be added. I wouldn't put it past a casino trying this to see what happens.
Quote: IbeatyouracesHere's the thing. Once you get trespasssed, returning can be considered breaking and entering even through the place is open to the public. And since you now attempted to commit a crime (trespassing), burglary can now be added. I wouldn't put it past a casino trying this to see what happens.
There are different types of trespassing differentiating private property trespass and open to the public trespass and most states (certainly nys at least) have a 3rd type involving schools (open to the public but only to people with kids enrolled or about to be enrolled)
Trespassing onto private property (someone fenced land for example) probably would have a burglary charge automatically added as intent is important
Intent to steal trespassing in a casino is much more difficult. I doubt burglary charges would be added except to cause pain and emotional distress (grounds possibly for false arrest maybe?)
Quote: darkozBob question for Nersessian
(Yes i had this happen to me within the last few months. Outcome they refused payment and i called the gaming commission rep who forced them to pay me on the spot. I received nothing but a verbal trespass and police were never summoned. It was a weird imprisonment because i felt i both could not leave if i wanted to and didnt want to leave as i wanted my jackpot payout)
It wasn't an imprisonment, you could have left whenever you wanted. However, you dediced not to because you felt if you did you wouldn't get paid which would have not been the case.
Quote: HomelessnycIt wasn't an imprisonment, you could have left whenever you wanted. However, you dediced not to because you felt if you did you wouldn't get paid which would have not been the case.
1) they told me they were refusing payment
2) the question is for Nersessian. I dont trust your legal opinion. You may be right. I just dont trust your opinion
Quote: darkoz1) they told me they were refusing payment
2) the question is for Nersessian. I dont trust your legal opinion. You may be right. I just dont trust your opinion
1) has nothing to do with you thinking you were imprisoned, you weren't.
2) i don't trust you either but you post on the fourm others will reply. Nature of the beast. My replying won't impact the chances Bob actually get asked and then answers your question. I'm glad to know you think my replies carry that much weight though.
