AP business morality
Quote: darkozYou cannot declare income from illegal means. A Cocaine dealer cannot state on his return $100,000 earned from Cocaine sales.
This is way out of my area of expertise, but I believe this is wrong. Didn't they get Al Capone on evading taxes on profits from illegal alcohol?
Quote: WizardThis is way out of my area of expertise, but I believe this is wrong. Didn't they get Al Capone on evading taxes on profits from illegal alcohol?
Yes, the IRS requires you declare income from all
activities, illegal or not. That's how they nail bad
guys like dope dealers.
Quote: WizardThis is way out of my area of expertise, but I believe this is wrong. Didn't they get Al Capone on evading taxes on profits from illegal alcohol?
This is what happens when SOMEONE just jumps to the end of a thread !
February 24th, 2014 at 11:44:22 AM permalink
Buzzard
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 74
Posts: 4831
Quote: GWAE
You have part of this wrong. A cocaine dealer is supposed to claim any money from illegal sales. You are also supposed to declare income if you rob a house or business and take anything from there.
This is a lesson Al Capone learned from the IRS. They did what Ellior Ness could not !
the IRS argument was: If Al Capone has a million dollar mansion he earned it somehow so he didn't pay his taxes. They didn't argue that he could pay his back taxes from smuggling alcohol because you cannot claim illegal activities on your return.
It was a roundabout way of getting him incarcerated when they were unsuccessful at proving he did anything illegal.
Quote: darkozAl Capone was convicted on tax evasion NOT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T REPORT PROFITS FROM ILLEGAL SALES OF ALCOHOL, but because he didn't have verifiable income to prove where he got his millions.
the IRS argument was: If Al Capone has a million dollar mansion he earned it somehow so he didn't pay his taxes. They didn't argue that he could pay his back taxes from smuggling alcohol because you cannot claim illegal activities on your return.
It was a roundabout way of getting him incarcerated when they were unsuccessful at proving he did anything illegal.
Ahem:
IRS Publication 17
Quote: IRS Publication 17, Other income, selected rows
Bribes. If you receive a bribe, include it in your income.
Found property. If you find and keep property that does not belong to you that has been lost or abandoned (treasure-trove), it is taxable to you at its fair market value in the first year it is your undisputed possession.
Gambling winnings. You must include your gambling winnings in income on Form 1040, line 21. If you itemize your deductions on Schedule A (Form 1040), you can deduct gambling losses you had during the year, but only up to the amount of your winnings.
Illegal activities. Income from illegal activities, such as money from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Form 1040, line 21, or on Schedule C or Schedule C-EZ (Form 1040) if from your self-employment activity.
Kickbacks. You must include kickbacks, side commissions, push money, or similar payments you receive in your income on Form 1040, line 21, or on Schedule C or Schedule C-EZ (Form 1040), if from your self-employment activity.
Prizes and awards. If you win a prize in a lucky number drawing, television or radio quiz program, beauty contest, or other event, you must include it in your income. For example, if you win a $50 prize in a photography contest, you must report this income on Form 1040, line 21. If you refuse to accept a prize, do not include its value in your income.
Stolen property. If you steal property, you must report its fair market value in your income in the year you steal it unless in the same year, you return it to its rightful owner.
So yeah, you report these things.
but um.
does anyone actually report their cocaine profits to the IRS?
Quote: darkozI stand corrected
but um.
does anyone actually report their cocaine profits to the IRS?
Catch-22
Quote: EvenBobA few people believe that, most don't. They believe
if they play long enough they will get ahead and
stay ahead. If they really thought the house always wins,
they wouldn't believe they can get ahead. Like I
keep saying, just ask them, you'll be amazed at
what they really think.
I hate to agree with Bob but I think I do to some extent, though he phrases it poorly. The vast majority of people absolutely know that the house has the edge and that "If you play blackjack long enough that dealer will beat you!". A lot of degens understand that "the house will win in the long run but not necessarily against me personally". If I press only on wins, or martingale, or play the oversize machines, I can win. I had a relatively intelligent guy tell me he thought at one point that as long as he only went on Sunday after the suckers have been losing all weekend that he could beat the slots. He truly believed this. So yeah, people get that its not gonna work out for most people, but their system will defeat the house edge and make it maybe a breakeven game, and if they play long enough they will finally hit that lucky streak and finally get ahead.
Bob has been writing this for a while and I used to write it off, but I have been actually asking degenerates why they gamble and unfortunately Bob is right that this is what most degenerates think.
Quote: bigfoot66but I have been actually asking degenerates why they gamble and unfortunately Bob is right that this is what most degenerates think.
'Unfortunately'? Did you think I was making it up?
And even if people know the HE, most of them
don't know what it means. They don't want to know,
they want to cling to the belief they can win eventually.
So they don't delve into it, ignorance is bliss.
I've been explaining how things work to my wife for
years and she understands it intellectually. But emotionally
and viscerally, she believes she can get ahead and stay
there. It's a lie she tells herself so she can continue to
play. A lie the casino perpetuates.
Part of it is, you see people winning every time you go.
I'm always seeing somebody buy in for $100 at roulette
and walk away with $1k. But I know that's not a norm
for them, they lost $3k last week. Other people at
table don't think that way, all they see is he was ahead.
And they can get ahead too if they just play long enough.
Quote: sodawaterAdvantage play is a cost of doing business for the gaming industry. If you spread a wide variety of games, a certain small percentage of players are going to play well, maybe even well enough to win. Your overall business will still be profitable because most of your customers play very poorly.
The "cost of a business model" does not legitimize actions, yet it is assumed by the fine outstanding people here that it does; for that matter (and for any business), employee pilferage and burglary losses are "part of their business model."
This is the first blurry moral assessment.
Quote: sodawaterSupermarkets sometimes offer milk and eggs below cost to drive shoppers to their stores. Playing a casino game intelligently is no more immoral than going to a supermarket and only buying milk. You are playing by the rules offered and promoted by the business. Sure, the supermarket would prefer you fill your cart with high-margin items, and sure, the casino would prefer you play its negative games, but there's nothing at all wrong with shopping well and playing smart.
People justify "getting over" with "intelligence," and playing intelligently. The attitude of "if I beat the system, or get away with some con, I am therefore intelligent by virtue of being able to get away with some scam or scheme." This is exactly how people think and believe. Bernie Madoff thought like this, Jordan Belfort thought like this, etc. but it's not even a question of legality; it is often technically legal to be able to scam or get over on some system, business, or operation without it being criminal, so the Question is not one of legality, it is one of behavior. Patent Troll shakedowns on straight-up legitimate businesses are not something illegal to attempt; indeed, they actually consider themselves the AP's of the legal industry.
Quote: sodawaterThe cost of advantage play, for casinos, is like any other cost of doing business. Keeping the lights on, security, insurance, a hundred other costs, these are all things businesses have to budget for if they want to open their doors to the public. Playing a game well is no more immoral than selling a casino insurance.
In many places, bribery or patronage is the cost of doing business; such participants think and feel they're "playing the game well" getting extra or gaming an imperfect system. By saying here, "well, if it's built into the business mode, it makes it ethical and all right to do" is a load of crap. Sure, we pay more for auto insurance because of fraud. We pay more for electricity because of pilferers. We get crap 6:5 Blackjack games because of AP and lost profits. THIS is the normal that the average Joe uses to justify his behavior and participation.
Many things that are arguably parasitic are 100% perfectly legal. As for justifying AP or what have you by calling the casino hall operator greedy is what is really calling the kettle black.
Will you agree that there is no such thing as universal right and wrong, and there may be some things which you consider to be wrong, which others consider to be right? And, in cases such as this, neither one of you is correct, because there is no objective standard by which to judge right and wrong?
If you don't agree to this statement, then I consider you to be a zealot. You have your own ideas of right and wrong, or moral and immoral, and you think that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. You believe that the world would be a better place if only you were the grand dictator in charge of everything.
If you do agree to this statement (essentially, that right vs wrong is subjective) then surely you must realize that, while you feel strongly about this, others have the opposite opinion and also feel strongly, and neither one of you "right" or "wrong"?
As far as greed goes, I will be the first to admit that I am just as greedy as those who own casinos. I also don't see greed as immoral.
Quote: darkozAl Capone was convicted on tax evasion NOT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T REPORT PROFITS FROM ILLEGAL SALES OF ALCOHOL, but because he didn't have verifiable income to prove where he got his millions.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but if they could play that card against Al, why don't you hear of it happening more often?
Quote: WizardI'm not saying you're wrong, but if they could play that card against Al, why don't you hear of it happening more often?
I am saying that he is wrong. According to wikipedia, he was convicted of tax evasion and failing to file tax returns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_capone#Conviction_and_imprisonment
I think that most organized criminals now are smart enough to have accountants file tax returns, and pay taxes on their income.
Quote: EvenBob'Unfortunately'? Did you think I was making it up?
And even if people know the HE, most of them
don't know what it means. They don't want to know,
they want to cling to the belief they can win eventually.
So they don't delve into it, ignorance is bliss.
All those gamblers know of the house edge, but they believe more so that it doesn't apply to them since they are smart and know when to "quit", or "double down". People desperately want to believe in a flawed system if it's something that will solve all their problems if they just win (such as Megabucks). They want to pull a slot handle and have the reels show up 7-7-7, or make a sidebet that hits huge such as the Pai Gow progressive. They know they are losing money, but eventually they'll hit for the magical amount that will even out the losses, and have a nice hefty bonus on top. I see people playing a higher denomination to "get back", but pull themselves further away as they keep trying to get even. I am guilty of this too and sometimes end up wishing I had just taken my losses.
They would allow the income but disallow the deductions.Quote: EdgeLookerWould be funny if a drug dealer puts down all his illegal income, and also itemizes to get deductions from DEA seizures, stolen/lost shipments etc., lol.
Quote: djatcI am guilty of this too and sometimes end up wishing I had just taken my losses.
You have to be in total control every time
you're in a casino or you'll get into trouble.
I have my game and that's all I see when
I'm there. The rest of it doesn't exist for
me, it's just a loud distraction.
The casino industry is no different then the Alcohol business. Oh wait, I take that back, the Alcohol business is far, far worst and more destructive. They don't show you all the bums with bottles of cheap wine passed out on the side of the street, or the dead family some teenage kid has just plowed into. Nope, nope, they show fun in the sun, hot chicks sucking down bottles of great tasting low cal beer. Just Choose the right beer and you will get laid and everyone will love you. Don't forget about the fun loving animals they use to entice people ( go spuds).Quote: EvenBobAbsolutely wrong. The public doesn't know enough to
suspend disbelief. They really truly believe if they
play long enough, they have a chance of getting ahead
and staying ahead. To suspend disbelief, you have to
have a good grasp of reality. They do not. Don't believe
me? ASK THEM. You'll find out in a hurry they have no
idea what the truth is. They also believe they could all
become pro gamblers if they just put their minds to it.
Of course people here think they are indicative of the
general public. They are not. Reminds me of when I
had the cab co. My fave question to ask black riders
was how much of the US is black, what %. They never
got it even close to right. It's 12%, but they always
guessed 35% to 50%. That's because in their neighborhoods
all they see is black people. When I wised them up, they
often said I was lying because 12% was way too low.
You are wrong BOB, most people know, THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS.
I said it before, people are not going to admit to some strange creepy guy they just meet or even friends (not saying you are creepy)that they are losers and know they can't win. Just like most people wont admit they are alcoholics. Your 30 years of scientific data may be a bit skewed.
We all know some thees guys are 2 faced. One recently chastised me for suggesting the use of Putlocker in order to watch a movie.This same person was adding his seal of approval to illegal gambling online, and using scare tactics in order to sell his dark side services to casinos.Quote: darkozI know from other threads Paigowdan and others feel AP'ing (card counting or comp hustling) is a vulture activity and that casinos are victimized because they are the legitimate and licensed businesses.
Here is my question to them. If the IRS and the Federal government feel income derived from legal gambling wins (not cheats) is taxable, then isn't the government declaring these as a legitimate business as well?
You cannot declare income from illegal means. A Cocaine dealer cannot state on his return $100,000 earned from Cocaine sales.
But a card counter or comps hustler can (and is supposed to) declare $100,000 in winnings from the casino.
Gambling in such a way that you repeatedly turn a profit is a legal business endeavor under the eyes of the federal government.
In fact, the MIT team actually incorporated with the expressly written company goal of winning at blackjack and filed all necessary state and federal taxes and business documents.
Therefore, gambling to turn a profit IS a legal business occupation.
Thoughts, please
I beg to differ. Had he reported his profits from illegal sales of alcohol, he would not have been convicted of tax evasion. DUH !
Quote: EvenBobA few people believe that, most don't. They believe
if they play long enough they will get ahead and
stay ahead. If they really thought the house always wins,
they wouldn't believe they can get ahead. Like I
keep saying, just ask them, you'll be amazed at
what they really think.
The mistake your making here Bob, is you are confusing what people SAY with what they truly know. Sure everyone says they're gonna win, because going to casinos wouldn't be fun or enjoyable if you said anything else (in regards to the gambling portion of the trip). But almost everyone knows in their heart of hearts, that the odds are stacked against them. They may not know what those odds are, but they aren't stupid enough to think a hotel is offering free lodging and meals so you'll stay longer playing a game that's in their favor lol. In one given night everyone believes they can get lucky and win,, and they can, but over the long haul no one believes the odds are in their favor. Who , when discussing their upcoming Vegas vacation, wants to talk about the 5.26% he they'll be facing in roullette?? Noone.
It's the same reason no one walks out of QuickMart on powerball day pissed off about the 3 bucks they just spent. But just because people talk about what they're gonna do with their 400 million dollars doesn't mean they don't also realize the odds are heavily against them
Quote: michael99000The mistake your making here Bob, is you are confusing what people SAY with what they truly know.
No I'm not. You're giving people far more credit
than they deserve. You're judging them by what
you know and what you THINK they know. The
only way to find out the truth is to ask them, like
I did. That's how polls work, by actually asking
people, and not assuming anything. You'll be
amazed at the amount of ignorance you'll find.
Quote: EvenBobNo I'm not. You're giving people far more credit
than they deserve. You're judging them by what
you know and what you THINK they know. The
only way to find out the truth is to ask them, like
I did. That's how polls work, by actually asking
people, and not assuming anything. You'll be
amazed at the amount of ignorance you'll find.
Thinking you're gonna win... And thinking the odds are in your favor..... Are two entirely different things. That difference is what the casino industry is built on.
That's what it boils down to.
Quote: BuzzardI know that I have quit taking the dealers break card when sitting at 3rd base . Not fair to the other more knowledgeable players at the table.
Get ready for many high fives from fellow gamblers, because you have SAVED THE TABLE.
Quote: michael99000Thinking you're gonna win... And thinking the odds are in your favor....
Again, you give them way too much credit
for thinking. They don't think the odds are
in their favor, they think it's all about luck.
Odds, what do they know from odds.
I would be willing to take a poll and ask people even record what they have to say. Tell e how many people You want me to ask with in reason. I will ask people who are at casinos, bars with gaming, including locals. The only thing I want from you if I do this is..... that if a majority of them have the opinion they know they cant win or are not winning.Quote: EvenBobNo I'm not. You're giving people far more credit
than they deserve. You're judging them by what
you know and what you THINK they know. The
only way to find out the truth is to ask them, like
I did. That's how polls work, by actually asking
people, and not assuming anything. You'll be
amazed at the amount of ignorance you'll find.
1) admit you are wrong about this
2) stop posting that nonsense.
We can come up with a small list of questions to ask them.
I think you might be getting false statements from people. Perhaps you or your questions are offensive or off putting and they just say what they think you want them to say just to stop the badgering. Maybe you posed things in a leading way. perhaps you are un-continuously selectively targeting degenerates like Varmenti. Guys like that, just want you to think they are winning. They know dam well they are losing.
Ego may play a big part in them telling you something they know is not true.
I know a guy that used to tell everyone he is a bookie he might have made 3 bets in his life. He got called on this during a big Tyson fight party I had. I warned him he was being stupid. he didn't listen.
To back up his position and story he started booking bets. having no clue what he was doing. He was giving people EVEN Money on mike Tyson. I cant remember who Mike was fighting that year, but i think Tyson was -600 -900, but don't quote me on that. he took about 2k in action, everyone was betting Tyson obviously. He then told me wanted to run to the casino and bet the other side so he would break even. *Facepalm*
I got him out of most of the bets. So he only lost a few hundred.
To this day he still tells wild BS stories.
Quote: AxelWolfI would be willing to take a poll and ask people even record what they have to say. Tell e how many people You want me to ask with in reason. I will ask people who are at casinos, bars with gaming, including locals. The only thing I want from you if I do this is..... that if a majority of them have the opinion they know they cant win or are not winning.
1) admit you are wrong about this
2) stop posting that nonsense.
.
My guess is 85 out of every 100 casino patrons know the odds are against them and expect to lose when they gamble.
probably right on the money.Quote: michael99000My guess is 85 out of every 100 casino patrons know the odds are against them and expect to lose when they gamble.
no that was like 80 to 1Quote: Buzzard" I cant remember who Mike was fighting that year" I think it was Buster Douglas !
