Laymedown
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April 5th, 2018 at 1:37:33 PM permalink
If any of you ever go ten pin bowling, you may know that the floors are coated with a fine layer of oil.
But then you ask yourself, how is it possible for a bowler to control the ball to keep rolling a high average?

Simple answer is, they incorporate the oil, in the bowling technique and adjust what needs to be adjusted in order to get a possible strike but at the same time also to maintain their high average.

Same as craps. There are many obstacles including chips blocking your landing area, Diamond back wall, Dealers vertical chip stacks blocking one side of the possible landing area for dice, etc. but yes, it's still possible to keep and maintain a high rolling average.

Thought's?
Sorry for my many daily posts. I am a retired professional and I love to chat about gambling. I also enjoy reading and can't help but to reply to some fantastic articles.
TigerWu
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April 5th, 2018 at 2:06:01 PM permalink
Almost anybody can be taught to bowl well because there are so few variables and a very limited goal.

Craps has exponentially more variables and the dice can not be "controlled" in the same way a bowling ball can.
Laymedown
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April 5th, 2018 at 3:16:42 PM permalink
As I mentioned in this post
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/4955-test-your-knowledge-dice/#post637413

I pickup the dice as if I was picking up a dirty napkin from the floor pinching with my two fingers and toss it to the garbage. very similar to craps using a slight back spin.
Sorry for my many daily posts. I am a retired professional and I love to chat about gambling. I also enjoy reading and can't help but to reply to some fantastic articles.
GWAE
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Laymedown
April 5th, 2018 at 3:43:50 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Almost anybody can be taught to bowl well because there are so few variables and a very limited goal.

Craps has exponentially more variables and the dice can not be "controlled" in the same way a bowling ball can.



That is incorrect about bowling. There are tons of variables. I carry 5 bowling balls to counter act the oil. There are different oil patterns, different woods, different types of oils. The oil moves and breaks down over frames. Humidity in the air can change things as well. The thing is you don't know the oil changed until after you threw a ball and saw that it changed.
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TigerWu
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Laymedown
April 5th, 2018 at 4:07:03 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

That is incorrect about bowling. There are tons of variables. I carry 5 bowling balls to counter act the oil. There are different oil patterns, different woods, different types of oils. The oil moves and breaks down over frames. Humidity in the air can change things as well. The thing is you don't know the oil changed until after you threw a ball and saw that it changed.



My point is all of those things in bowling can be taught, and can physically be accounted for, more or less consistently, with enough practice. You can't do that with craps. You can't have five different sets of dice to counteract different felt on the table or whatever, and you can't alter your throwing style based on the temperature inside the casino, etc.

EDIT: Additionally, you can still be a really good bowler and not even have to worry about humidity or lane oil or multiple balls or any of that stuff. Not me, though, I really suck at bowling. But other people.
TomG
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Laymedown
April 5th, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM permalink
In bowling there are 1024 combinations of ways to knock down the pins. It is routine for top bowlers to hit their preferred combination multiple times in a row. In craps there are only 36 combinations. Yet even the best craps players in the world would never think they can hit their preferred combination more than once in a row. (When the 18 yo痴 consecutive yo痴 we池e rolled it was not the preferred roll because no one was betting on it).

A better comparison is a knuckleball pitcher. To be able to throw a 47 mile per hour pitch past Major League hitters is as magical as being able to influence dice at a craps table. And in both cases it takes millions of us trying to do it to find one who can do it at a professional level
Laymedown
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April 5th, 2018 at 4:48:24 PM permalink
But if you stop and think for a moment,

The bowling lane stays the same in general
The length of the lane stays the same
Point A to Point B has all the variables
The bowling ball itself is like picking up the dice using two fingers and a thumb.
You eye's are focused on the arrows in the middle of the lane or focused on the landing point itself at the pins.

But now think about when you get that split that is doable, You can not put math behind this stuff however you can utilize your skills and experiences to accomplish the doable split.
Sorry for my many daily posts. I am a retired professional and I love to chat about gambling. I also enjoy reading and can't help but to reply to some fantastic articles.
sodawater
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April 5th, 2018 at 4:51:47 PM permalink
If the dice were as large and heavy as bowling balls, no doubt you could control them.

Tiny, hollow plastic cubes are so subject to initial conditions that even things like the blood flow in your fingers and someone coughing a table away create enough chaos that you can't control the dice on a legal throw.
TomG
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April 5th, 2018 at 6:10:24 PM permalink
Quote: Laymedown

But if you stop and think for a moment,

The bowling lane stays the same in general
The length of the lane stays the same
Point A to Point B has all the variables
The bowling ball itself is like picking up the dice using two fingers and a thumb.
You eye's are focused on the arrows in the middle of the lane or focused on the landing point itself at the pins.



Yet bowlers can hit their preferred results consistently and repeatedly, craps players cannot
DJTeddyBear
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April 6th, 2018 at 5:21:41 AM permalink
Everything about bowling is designed to enable a player to improve. Everything about craps is designed to prevent improvement.



Quote: sodawater

If the dice were as large and heavy AND ROUND as bowling balls...

Fixed it for ya.
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beachbumbabs
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SOOPOO
April 6th, 2018 at 11:10:39 AM permalink
Quote: Laymedown

But if you stop and think for a moment,

The bowling lane stays the same in general
The length of the lane stays the same
Point A to Point B has all the variables
The bowling ball itself is like picking up the dice using two fingers and a thumb.
You eye's are focused on the arrows in the middle of the lane or focused on the landing point itself at the pins.

But now think about when you get that split that is doable, You can not put math behind this stuff however you can utilize your skills and experiences to accomplish the doable split.



Maybe it increases your enjoyment or focuses your consistency to visualize this, but I think it's a flawed analogy.

(As several have said) Pro bowlers train for and recognize and make adjustment for environmental conditions, but the basic physics are not interfered with .Bowling: heavy sphere with specific gripping configiration thrown at a straight-line target with no obstacles, via a solid surface. Craps: non-aerodynamic, lightweight cubes with no pre-configured finger placement thrown at a randomized surface, which it must hit before coming to a rest or be ruled no roll. No intermediate surface designed to guide or channel the dice to the target.

No useful comparison, because no matter how consistent the mechanics of your throw or your distance from the pyramids, the path they take upon hitting that surface is beyond your control. That's by design, and has the opposite (but intended) effect from a bowling lane.
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FleaStiff
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April 6th, 2018 at 2:22:19 PM permalink
In a bowling alley they control the oil application some of which may exceed standards for competition play.

In a casino they look at the dice from time to time but usually there is no testing.
TomG
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April 6th, 2018 at 4:45:25 PM permalink
Quote: Laymedown

But if you stop and think for a moment,

The bowling lane stays the same in general
The length of the lane stays the same
Point A to Point B has all the variables
The bowling ball itself is like picking up the dice using two fingers and a thumb.
You eye's are focused on the arrows in the middle of the lane or focused on the landing point itself at the pins.



After some cursory research it appears professional level bowlers must be able to achieve their desired throw (a strike) 60% of the time ("The odds of a professional PBA bowler rolling a perfect game are 460 to 1." http://www.gazettextra.com/archives/janesville-bowler-s-rare-feat-two-consecutive-games/article_2e41e219-294b-5266-a603-319495d0e6d8.html)

Where is the craps player who would be willing to bet they can roll their desired number at even half that rate?

And that's with only 36 possible dice combinations compared to 1024 bowling combinations. Based on that, a "Random bowler" has a similar probability of throwing a perfect game as a craps player has of rolling a seven 45 times in a row (or 30 yo's in a row). Yet professional bowlers have perfect games all the time and many of them would be willing to bet lots of money they can do it this year. Where are the craps players who are going to roll 45 sevens in a row this year?
SOOPOO
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April 6th, 2018 at 4:49:54 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

to 1024 bowling combinations.



To even mention "bowling combinations" shows such a lack of understanding of the topic of comparing a bowling ball throw with a dice throw......


Read what Babs wrote a few posts back.
TomG
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April 6th, 2018 at 5:05:24 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

To even mention "bowling combinations" shows such a lack of understanding of the topic of comparing a bowling ball throw with a dice throw......


Read what Babs wrote a few posts back.



Even after reading what she wrote, I still have a severe lack of understanding of how to compare the two. One is proven to be a repeatable skill, the other is been proven to be completely random. (If anyone has any disagreements, they need to put their money up or shut-up).

One way to test comparability of the two games is to put them into the same category and see if it makes sense. Is it possible that throws are based on skill the way bowling is? Obviously not, because no one will take the bet. Does it make sense that rolling a bowling ball down the lanes is completely random like a craps table? If not then that shows exactly why the comparison makes no sense at all.
Laymedown
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April 8th, 2018 at 1:55:57 AM permalink
But when compared to a dice setter making trending numbers repeatedly has to hold some merit.
Sorry for my many daily posts. I am a retired professional and I love to chat about gambling. I also enjoy reading and can't help but to reply to some fantastic articles.
TomG
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April 8th, 2018 at 11:33:05 AM permalink
Quote: Laymedown

But when compared to a dice setter making trending numbers repeatedly has to hold some merit.



If a single dice setter was willing to be held to the same standards a bowler it would hold some merit. But for obvious reasons none ever will
MrV
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April 8th, 2018 at 11:36:01 AM permalink
Quote: Laymedown

But when compared to a dice setter making trending numbers repeatedly has to hold some merit.



What do you mean "trending numbers?"

Do you mean "trendy," as in "foppish" or "adopting the latest style?"

If so, how can we judge the sense of style of a pair of dice?

This DI stuff is so confusing.
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Ibeatyouraces
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April 8th, 2018 at 11:38:22 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

What do you mean "trending numbers?"

Do you mean "trendy," as in "foppish" or "adopting the latest style?"

If so, how can we judge the sense of style of a pair of dice?

This DI stuff is so confusing.



Maybe they need the tote board like roulette and some e-craps tables have.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
MrV
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April 8th, 2018 at 11:40:50 AM permalink
Yes, and their own "Joan Rivers" to make cutting, snarkish comments as to their sense of style as a roll unfolds.
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Laymedown
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April 8th, 2018 at 11:13:26 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

What do you mean "trending numbers?"

Do you mean "trendy," as in "foppish" or "adopting the latest style?"

If so, how can we judge the sense of style of a pair of dice?

This DI stuff is so confusing.



It's not confusing.

First off, after approaching the tables simply waiting a round before betting and keeping a visual track of each of the shooters, rolling repeating numbers and just bet the "trendy's"
Sorry for my many daily posts. I am a retired professional and I love to chat about gambling. I also enjoy reading and can't help but to reply to some fantastic articles.
AxelWolf
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April 8th, 2018 at 11:35:29 PM permalink
Quote: Laymedown

It's not confusing.

First off, after approaching the tables simply waiting a round before betting and keeping a visual track of each of the shooters, rolling repeating numbers and just bet the "trendy's"

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Laymedown
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April 9th, 2018 at 1:30:44 AM permalink
I should have used GOLF as an example with the ever so changing conditions from various coarse's.
Sorry for my many daily posts. I am a retired professional and I love to chat about gambling. I also enjoy reading and can't help but to reply to some fantastic articles.
Dalex64
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:42:09 AM permalink
Ok, now replace the golf ball with a golf cube, hit it, and see how often you can get it to land with a 6 up.
Gialmere
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October 4th, 2019 at 8:21:52 PM permalink
There is one area of comparison between craps and bowling: the 7-10 split. Essentially you must launch the ball at one of the pins and hope that its odd shape will hit the sidewall, back curtain, or piece of machinery and some how carom across the lane to knock down the other bedpost. Pure random chance. Sound familiar?

Most pros consider it the hardest shot in bowling and they pick it up only 0.7% of the time. And yet ... there's statistically a spare that pros only pick up 0.3% of the time. It's called The Greek Church and looks like this...



A pro can actually pick up a 4-6-7-9-10 Greek Church around 1 in 12 attempts.
Riddle: What accounts for this statistical anomaly?

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
Rigondeaux
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October 4th, 2019 at 10:20:53 PM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

Ok, now replace the golf ball with a golf cube, hit it, and see how often you can get it to land with a 6 up.



The bowling thing was interesting, but I'm glad this thread got bumped so I could see this.
smoothgrh
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October 5th, 2019 at 12:08:44 AM permalink
I like bowling and I like craps, so I feel like I should comment傭ut I have nothing noteworthy to say.

Maybe I just like throwing things.
Joeman
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smoothgrh
October 5th, 2019 at 6:56:23 AM permalink
The problem with the OP is that craps and bowling have completely different objectives. Pro bowlers can throw a strike 60% of the time, but how many can throw the ball so that it stops halfway down the lane with the thumb hole within 5° of vertical? Conversely, if you could win at craps simply by knocking over the base dealer's stacks with the dice, I bet I could make a sweet living as a DI.

Interesting point about the Greek Church (we also called it the Greek Castle). I had a teammate in youth leagues pick up the Church once. Thing is, he wasn't the best bowler. I'd have said he just got lucky, but he knew where to throw (at the 2 pins), and he hit his mark.

I also once saw a guy pick up the 7-10 split 18 times in a row! :)
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ChumpChange
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October 5th, 2019 at 8:50:33 AM permalink
Dice don't weigh 16 pounds. What do dice weigh?
smoothgrh
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October 5th, 2019 at 10:25:29 AM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Dice don't weigh 16 pounds. What do dice weigh?



I don't know, but the hot thing in bowling for awhile was (is?) two-handed rolls. I don't think casinos will allow the same for dice!

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