Controlled Dice Experiments

Just building this thread where I'll record my controlled dice experiments. Each one will contain the following info:

• Scenario: # number
• Date: / Hours:
• Amount of Starting BankRoll
• Set Description
• # of Unique Rounds of Rolling
• Outcome

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• Scenario: # 1
• Date: 6/7 (6:00pm until 9:00pm) (3-hour window)
• Amount of Starting Bank Roll: $900
• Set Description: (Random Rolls)
• # of Unique Rounds of Rolling: 2

I picked up the dice, rolled it a few times in front of me and then picked them up and rolled them across the table.

Outcome:

I rolled an 8 to set the point on the first try. Lost the $5 world bet I placed to cover my PL. I rolled a Yo and then rolled a 7-out. I only had 3 dice rolls. I had $30 on 5, $30 on 6, $10 on PL backed up by $50 PL odds. I had $15 on the field (playing cross). I won the first yo at +15 and then lost $135.

Current Bank Roll: $760

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Lost roughly $200 over the course of the table before the next roll came back to me. Was sitting at $520-$550, or around that. On my second set of rolls I did the same thing as above.

Outcome:

I had an 11-roll session. I changed my strat and setup $96 across, off for the come out roll. I threw $15 PL and $10 world. I hit a craps ace-deuce on the first roll and pressed it $10. I rolled a 9 for the set point on the next roll. I took down my 9 and put $70 odds behind my $15 pl. On every number hit, I pressed one unit. When all was said and done, I lost $140ish.

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At this point I played sparingly but still lost another $100 on a very cold table. By the time the dice got back to me I was down -$600 and only had $300 left of my current bank roll.

• Scenario: # 1
• Set Description: (6s on Top)
• # of Unique Rounds of Rolling: 3

I tried out a new set that I don't normally roll, trying to mix things up. I put 6s on top with 2s facing towards me. 3s were to the left and 4s to the right. 5s to the back and 1s on the table face. I set each dice specifically, just across from the DP LIne, keeping them on axis.

On all 3 unique rounds, I hit a hard-4 as the set point on the come out roll on the opening round of play. I never once played the hard-4 on the come out and probably should have but I didn't think I'd hit it 3 times in a row.

On the first unique round I hit 2 set points and had an 18-roll session. I rolled a 4-3 as an out and yes, the dice hit the chips. I hit a lot of 4s, 6s, 8s, especially 8s. I hit the hard-4 and the hard-8 once each in the round. I didn't have anything on those though. I finally made money but only about $210 total. My bank roll was up to $500ish again. At that point the table got warmer. I made approx. $200 by the time the dice got back to me for my second roll.

On roll session 2, using the same 6s scenario, I hit one set point and a few numbers and also saw three craps ace-deuce come up. I lasted 14 rolls. I played a little smarter, reducing and resetting wagers once during the roll after I made the set point. My bank roll was now up to $840-$850.

I decided to hold off on big wagers on the next few rollers. Instead I risked more on prop bets like World during the come out or horn or hardways. I hit a couple of times and overall made about $75 by the time the dice came back to me for my third roll. I was up to $900ish.

Last Roll of the Night for me:

I rolled for 34 minutes. Same dice set of 6s on top. I hit 4s,6s,8s and Ace-Deuce as a dominant part of the roll. I rolled 4 set points (4, 8, 8, 6). Again, I saw the hard-4 and hard-8 come up and this time I kept $10 on each so I made out on that. I was also press-buying the 4 a lot during the roll. I reset my wagers twice during the roll, hoping to be smart. I wish I hadn't and just kept the darn thing going all the way.

Outcome:

I made $800 on the final roll. I ended up with a bankroll of $1,755. So, basically, I went down -$600 and rallied to +$855.

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Observations about the dice:

The Random roll set was not good. I would have done another test with it but I was down too much money and needed to at least make an attempt to rally a little.

The top 6s set was really good.

I actually did a fairly decent job keeping the dice on axis and again, I saw a lot of 4s, 6s, 8s. I rolled the 7-out all 3 times with a 4-3. So, looking closely at the dice I could see all of the combinations I was hitting and how the dice were landing.

Turn the dice 1 to the left on each die and you get 4-4. If the back spin was just right you get 2-2. If the dice turn inward or outward one time you get 4-3. If one dice over spins you get 6-2 or 1-2 or 1-5. All of these numbers were being hit a lot.

I like this set better than the 5s-1s set I was using previously because the rate at which the 4,6,8 came up was really good. I love playing 6 and 8 and I don't mind buying the 4 now on this set.

Quote: JoelDeze

Outcome:

I made $800 on the final roll. I ended up with a bankroll of $1,755. So, basically, I went down -$600 and rallied to +$855.

Great job. By documenting all results this will finally put an end to the idiots who claim that dice control is impossible. This is definite proof that good dice throwers can double their bankroll in one night. Continue that for a little while and you should be able to earn a lot of money.

"Godd dice throwers"

Bwa ha ha ha!

Joel, don't get me wrong, but your recollections of the numbers that seemed to come up more frequently, do not carry the same weight as a list of the outcomes of each of your tosses. If you want your data to be meaningful, please record the outcome of every toss.

So whatever he chooses to post is "documented"?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Joel, don't get me wrong, but your recollections of the numbers that seemed to come up more frequently, do not carry the same weight as a list of the outcomes of each of your tosses. If you want your data to be meaningful, please record the outcome of every toss.

That is correct.

I will record all throws on my next session. I'd like to have them documented as well. It will help me when I'm testing different sets.

I believe these documented rolls about as much as the "images" NASA sends us from "space". In other words, they're gospel. Tell us more.

Quote: RogerKint

I believe these documented rolls about as much as the "images" NASA sends us from "space". In other words, they're gospel. Tell us more.

So you have a problem believing things. Soon you will have a problem remembering things. Later on you'll become confused. Tell us less.

As always there is no good outcome for your endeavor. You will only hurt yourself. You are on a road that has been traveled by more than one poster here. Let me save you 50-100 pages of garbage. Quit while you are ahead.

Quote: JoelDeze

So you have a problem believing things. Soon you will have a problem remembering things. Later on you'll become confused. Tell us less.

My bad. Will do.

Quote: DeMango

As always there is no good outcome for your endeavor. You will only hurt yourself. You are on a road that has been traveled by more than one poster here. Let me save you 50-100 pages of garbage. Quit while you are ahead.

Well said.

Quote: JoelDeze

That is correct.

I will record all throws on my next session. I'd like to have them documented as well. It will help me when I'm testing different sets.

For a very low cost you can get an HD wide angle pen camera that fits in a shirt pocket.
It's virtually undetectable and hassle free. There's many brands and styles. That, along with prior notification when you were going and not much would be in dispute.

I recently figured it would take me over 100 years at my current pace, and about 20 years at any conceivably possible pace [for me], to be sure at 3x4x5x craps that some technique was working +ev for me at craps.

I only know how to look at my results vs 3 standard deviations [if I was still ahead, 3 SDs would convince me it wasn't just luck].

How are you going to get past this problem of needing monumental amounts of data?

Quote: odiousgambit

I recently figured it would take me over 100 years at my current pace, and about 20 years at any conceivably possible pace [for me], to be sure at 3x4x5x craps that some technique was working +ev for me at craps.

I only know how to look at my results vs 3 standard deviations [if I was still ahead, 3 SDs would convince me it wasn't just luck].

How are you going to get past this problem of needing monumental amounts of data?

I'm fairly sure no one can show an advantage over 10k rolls flat betting. Hell I'd like to see 2k rolls.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm fairly sure no one can show an advantage over 10k rolls flat betting. Hell I'd like to see 2k rolls.

Agreed... and emphasis on the word "see."

I read the first paragraph then scrolled to find a video/link in the OP. After seeing none, I have some reports of my own to "document:"

10,000 rolls.

7,000 7's
3,000 "others"

Man did I clean up from the Don't. Good thing I can control the dice and throw a 7 whenever I want.

" I actually did a fairly decent job keeping the dice on axis " Say no more, Say no more....................

Playing the Don'ts alone at a table a few months ago, I used a set for the seven that I learned long ago in high school from a street player.

More than a set, the dice have to be positioned just so, at a certain angle in your grasp, and you have to thrust rather than toss them.

Worthless, but I like to use it on occasion for old time sake.

I managed to hit a few well timed sevens and the dealer said "Do you find that works for you?"

"Yeah, about 16.66% of the time."

"Oh, that's pretty good."

I purchased a hidden watch camera. I should get it by early next week. I will try it out as soon as I can. If the casino finds it will I get in trouble using it?

Quote: Tanko

"Yeah, about 16.66% of the time."

I know a way to control the dice that will add 2/303 of a percent

Don't forget to turn it off when you use the rest room.

Someone tried to video our table a few weeks ago using his phone. The dealers told him to stop. Nothing further.

Quote: JoelDeze

I purchased a hidden watch camera. I should get it by early next week. I will try it out as soon as I can. If the casino finds it will I get in trouble using it?

I got everyone one of them for christmas and one for myself. They looked like dress watches, not some cheap nerdy plastic calculator looking watches. I haven't used it yet, it's still in the box somewhere. I just dont know how good that will work since you will be moving around so much. Are you going to have it on your tossing arm? No one will want to watch that including you, it will just make you dizzy. Even on the other arm you might have to hold your wrist in a certain position.

I didn't really get them because i thought they would be functional. I just thought they looked good and were kinda cool(i love that kinda stuff). I think they would be great for certain situations, let's say if you were to get backroomed, pulled over by the PO PO or something. They would probably be good for table games or quick recording notes.

Also the battery may not be as good as one in the pens. The pens seems to work well..

Quote: AxelWolf

I got everyone one of them for christmas and one for myself. They looked like dress watches, not some cheap nerdy plastic calculator looking watches. I haven't used it yet, it's still in the box somewhere. I just dont know how good that will work since you will be moving around so much. Are you going to have it on your tossing arm? No one will want to watch that including you, it will just make you dizzy. Even on the other arm you might have to hold your wrist in a certain position.

I didn't really get them because i thought they would be functional. I just thought they looked good and were kinda cool(i love that kinda stuff). I think they would be great for certain situations, let's say if you were to get backroomed, pulled over by the PO PO or something. They would probably be good for table games or quick recording notes.

Also the battery may not be as good as one in the pens. The pens seems to work well..

Looks like it's supposed to be 26 min for 1.6 gb and it holds 8gb so that should cover 2 hours of recording. I can put it on my non-throwing wrist and just rest that arm on the table edge as I lean over to roll with the other hand. I think it's doable. I'm just more concerned about getting caught and getting into trouble.

Save some time, watch AHigh videos!

Quote: AxelWolf

I got everyone one of them for christmas and one for myself. They looked like dress watches, not some cheap nerdy plastic.

Mine was a rather chunky looking dress watch/chronometer. Conspicuous mostly because the chronometer hands were clearly fake. But I bought a VERY similar looking non-camera watch which I wore most of the time at work, so that would be the one likely to get cursory attention first while colleagues got used to me wearing one.

Worth noting that the storage in at least the one I bought was a regular micro sd card. So if you see one for sale at different prices for different memory size, it might be an idea to buy the cheap one and upgrade the memory yourself. Also with mine was a generic fault that the fake winder knobs would fall off :o)

Watches not easy to conspicuously hold steady.

One built into an e-cig would seem a great idea, because you could set that down while playing.

Perhaps Mrs. Deze should hold the camera? If you are concentrating on holding your wrist still to get a good "shot", your natural shooting action will be compromised (I am going to call it the "Heisenberg Craps Uncertainty Principle").

I'm not really a believer in dice control. Even if you could do it of course you can't handle the dice yourself a lot of the time. So how are you going to know if the other throwers have this skill? You can't. Probably 99.99% of the shooters you have to bet on to stay at the table don't have this skill. So even if you did have this skill a lot of the time you'll be playing against the house edge. I guess you could make much smaller bets until your turn comes. That would mean an awful lot of wasted time. Having said that I did read a great book on craps called "Get the Edge at Craps," by Sharpshooter. Even if you don't believe his claims of phenomenal skill at dice control the book is amazing in that there is all kinds of info about the game that I was not aware of. Even if you don't plan to try dice control or you don't really believe his claims it is a very enjoyable book to read.

Quote: lilredrooster

I guess you could make much smaller bets until your turn comes. That would mean an awful lot of wasted time.

I try to get on tables where I know some of the other people. If some of my friends are on a full table they will come over to mine if the table they are on is cold.

For people I don't know I rarely play the pass or don't pass. I'll wait a few rolls and if the shooter is hitting numbers I'll do a simple $12/$12 on the 6/8. If I lose I'm only risking a small amount. If they hit numbers or make a set point I move to the pass line and continue to do 6/8.

Otherwise the majority of wagers happen on my roll or rolls of friends. It's a social game. There isn't any wasted time for me.

Quote: AxelWolf

I got everyone one of them for christmas and one for myself. They looked like dress watches, not some cheap nerdy plastic calculator looking watches. I haven't used it yet, it's still in the box somewhere. I just dont know how good that will work since you will be moving around so much. Are you going to have it on your tossing arm? No one will want to watch that including you, it will just make you dizzy. Even on the other arm you might have to hold your wrist in a certain position.

I didn't really get them because i thought they would be functional. I just thought they looked good and were kinda cool(i love that kinda stuff). I think they would be great for certain situations, let's say if you were to get backroomed, pulled over by the PO PO or something. They would probably be good for table games or quick recording notes.

Also the battery may not be as good as one in the pens. The pens seems to work well..

The casinos don't allow pictures here in the Midwest because people around you and in the background may not want to be in it. Same for filming craps. While not illegal you'll get shut down. The watch sounds hard to spot though.

Joeldeze



I am not trying to be picky here, even though it is going to look like it.
If you treat this game like a social event, and play on full tables
where you get the dice every 30-45 minutes and your friends
do not work on their shots so they can be affective, what in the
world do you put in the time you say you do on yours.

I play every day on my table, that is my social time, when I am at
the casino, my only goal is to beat that table, I am not there
for a social event. I also want a empty table or not more than
three people so I get the dice often.

dicesetter

Good observation and documenting your experiment. By setting up the dice you somehow manage to change the outcome. Sure random roll of the dice is not good since chances of loosing is greater.

Quote: dicesitter

Joeldeze



I am not trying to be picky here, even though it is going to look like it.
If you treat this game like a social event, and play on full tables
where you get the dice every 30-45 minutes and your friends
do not work on their shots so they can be affective, what in the
world do you put in the time you say you do on yours.

I play every day on my table, that is my social time, when I am at
the casino, my only goal is to beat that table, I am not there
for a social event. I also want a empty table or not more than
three people so I get the dice often.

dicesetter

DS I think the difference here is that you truly believe the only advantage one can get in craps is by influencing the dice(God, at least I hope so). He actually believes in all kinds of hot/cold shooter, trends and whatever voodoo mumbo jumbo people come up with.

Then again I asked you about your thoughts on betting systems and I was shocked at your response.
I can only imagine the more people play the more trends and crazy stuff they start to notice.

Axel


I don't remember our discussion on betting systems. I don't think they work. but I have
known some interesting craps players that use them, mostly on the don't side.

And yes I believe the only advantage you can get on the table is on your shot,
or playing with others of similar abilities.

How we differ is in how we try to find or use what ever influence you have.
I gave up trying to expain it to you or math.

I have found something in 10's of thousands of practice rolls, that a person
that has never done that would see or more than likely believe.

I am ok with that, the only person that had to see that was me, and it
took me 39 of my 41 years of craps playing to see it. I cant
expect to be able to explain it you or have you believe it on here.

So I am very happy with my play and the fewer people that play like
this the better it is for us that do.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

Axel


I don't remember our discussion on betting systems. I don't think they work. but I have
known some interesting craps players that use them, mostly on the don't side.

And yes I believe the only advantage you can get on the table is on your shot,
or playing with others of similar abilities.

How we differ is in how we try to find or use what ever influence you have.
I gave up trying to expain it to you or math.

I have found something in 10's of thousands of practice rolls, that a person
that has never done that would see or more than likely believe.

I am ok with that, the only person that had to see that was me, and it
took me 39 of my 41 years of craps playing to see it. I cant
expect to be able to explain it you or have you believe it on here.

So I am very happy with my play and the fewer people that play like
this the better it is for us that do.

dicesetter

I would like to observe your throw at a live table.

I made 62% of my pass line bets for the 1st 300 points, then it started to go down. At 4 years, the biggest edge on a frequent bet is making a 4 or 10 point; which I do 50% of the time (33% is expectation) the rest are less impressive but still profitable had I been flat betting the whole time.

Why would it need 10,000 rolls? SRR needs a lot of rolls, but if you only count inside numbers and compare it to 7's then it becomes clear within a few hundred rolls. I test my throwing in the morning so I don't risk it when I'm not throwing well. It's like pool tricks, impossible to the lay person and delicate (knowing the exact amount of spin the ball needs; or in this case dice) can be done but how many world class pool players are there?