Sharpshooter's Book: Truth or Fiction
It doesn't work, so it isn't considered cheating.
The guy you talked to at gaming: did he believe dice setting provides true AP?
I'll bet he didn't, for if he / gaming did, you bet your bippy there would be prohibitions in place.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThe number of rolls that need to be influenced is less than what a ball player with a 300 batting average needs to hit.
You are comparing apples and oranges. There is absolutely no relevance in that comparison.
Even if you can keep dice on axis in the air AND hit the table at the same precise moment AND the dice are in the exact position as each other to the millimeter, the back wall on the craps tape changes everything. a millimeter difference would change the rotation, bounce and direction. This is assuming that all the pre-cursers listed above are even possible.
If you are saying, "Well, the perfect shot doesn't hit the diamonds, it hits the part below that and dies." That kind of shot, done consistently, would get you kicked out of the casino.
It's a fantasy world you and DI people live in. If every condition was met, leaving the hand at the exact same time, rotating at the exact same rate, hitting at the exact same spot, bouncing the exact same way, in a vacuum with no A/C in the room and the spot both dice hit has the exact same bounce and wear to the table, then it might be able to be done.
EVERYTHING in the world that can be done right now, can be proven. If I say I can throw an apple against a wall and it will split, then I prove it, it is it is possible. If I say I can jump off the roof of my house not break any bones and I do it, it's possible. If I say I can jump over the Grand Canyon from a standing position and I do it, it's then possible to do. If I then can do these things repeatedly, these things are likely to be done.
DI does not exist. It doesn't exist because nobody can prove that it does. Unlike every other thing that happens in the world.
ZCore13
dicesetter
Quote: AhighI've been practicing what I refer to as a "stacker" shot. I have had plenty of people tell me they have no problem with the shot, but other places that raise an eyebrow.
I have not had much success with this shot myself except to impress people that I can perform it. It's hard to perform!
I usually switch to this shot right after taking all my bets down (except line) as a result of being happy with my wins so far, but I still am obligated to shoot (for finishing my roll).
Given that I'm not playing I might have some free time to demonstrate this shot. There are no laws against the shot in Las Vegas, so it's 100% legal.
If both dice don't hit the back wall, you're going to hear about that. But the goal, for me, with this shot is just to impress people that the dice can appear to be glued together through the air.
I have another shot I developed in the past 4-5 months that has an axis of rotation perpendicular to the table. I perform this shot in a way that I haven't seen anyone else do, and I have had good success with this shot, but it's success is not based on the dice touching each other on landing. I have no shots that I feel like there is any benefit to the dice touching. I find it hard to believe that having the dice touching each other is ever desirable at all except to make people go "ooooh neat!"
Seems like your GTC style toss went the way of the crank window. Please elaborate on your newfound DI mechanics.
And I was thinking much less, that's why I ask the question. How precise does it have to be?Quote: Zcore13a millimeter difference would change the rotation
I don't think it has to be EXACTLY the same every time to avoid certain numbers. What ever the case is, I'm certain no human at a craps table can do it. You will always have a different speed, your arm will always be slightly different position, Your fingers will always hold the dice slightly different so on and so on.
Whats the biggest problem a DI faces other then the diamonds(I believe a guy could get away with some short rolls)? Speed of the dice I would think. If you took the most skilled DI, what speed do you think would be needed where he could show actual results?
Ahigh or anyone what If you were to stand 1 foot a way from the back wall, could you show results very fast? This is what I want to see. Fist show under the best conditions you can show results, then keep moving back.
Quote: AxelWolfAhigh or anyone what If you were to stand 1 foot a way from the back wall, could you show results very fast? This is what I want to see. Fist show under the best conditions you can show results, then keep moving back.
There are lots of things that I could do. Unfortunately, I'm too busy working on what we are doing for G2E to mess with it.
I have free time, but I prefer to relax and entertain myself and give my brain a rest since work has my brain pretty busy lately.
Quote: AxelWolfAhigh or anyone what If you were to stand 1 foot a way from the back wall, could you show results very fast?
This would be a good test! Anyone with a craps table should try!
For dice to hit but not bouncing all over the place. I believe it would be impossible.
Quote: nickolay411This would be a good test! Anyone with a craps table should try!
Any throw that includes the dice spinning,sailing or floating side by side, in close proximity, runs the risk of them bumping eachother and almost immediately sends them in an unpredictable and predictably random manner. I witnessed a fella at the Rampart tossing both dice like darts into the portion of the table where the felt met the rubber. The dice had minimal trajectory with a knuckleball type rotation. He was the lone bettor at the table and I curiously watched him roll several hands. If his intended outcome was to have the dice die within 4inches of the wall and not roll beyond the passline marker near the hook then he was about 30% successful. He threw an inordinate number of aces and boxcars and didn't repeat a single point for a winner. He did however hit a few hopping 12's for himself and the dealers.
Yes I understand. I mentioned you because obviously your the best equipped and advanced in the craps field as someone could get to do something like this, I also believe we would get honest "scientific" results from you. I wouldn't trust an agenda driven person or someone with no reputation.Quote: AhighThere are lots of things that I could do. Unfortunately, I'm too busy working on what we are doing for G2E to mess with it.
I have free time, but I prefer to relax and entertain myself and give my brain a rest since work has my brain pretty busy lately.
Quote: AxelWolfYes I understand. I mentioned you because obviously your the best equipped and advanced in the craps field as someone could get to do something like this, I also believe we would get honest "scientific" results from you. I wouldn't trust an agenda driven person or someone with no reputation.
Thanks for the kind comments. I really am interested, it's just I have no time. I am really enjoying the work I'm doing at the office so that's what has my attention right now.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThe number of rolls that need to be influenced is less than what a ball player with a 300 batting average needs to hit.
I'm figuring its got be tough for a DI to find a table to shoot.
Crowded table, that's gotta be out, you hardly get a chance to shoot. If you bet on other shooters, you are giving up your edge.
Can you stand at a crowded table with chips in your rack , not bet until its your turn to shoot. Are you allowed to shoot at a crowded table only laying bets when its possibly only your turn to shoot? If allowed, gotta be a boring session for a DI, you barely get to make any bets, could be 1/2 hour between bets.
Do DI's only play empty tables?
Another variable I was thinking about preventing DI is when the dice fly through the air, They create tiny air currents themselves that probably affect each other changing the trajectory ever so slightly.
I see people at craps tables carefully setting the dice and shooting and they are hopeful its working.
Problem is they are always betting on other shooters. If they had an edge, its gone.
Quote: terapinedThey create tiny air currents themselves that probably affect each other changing the trajectory ever so slightly.
This kind of Air resistance is negligible unless of course you've got a big fan blowing your dice around. From a lot of physics tests done with coins and dice most of the time air resistance isn't a factor. Most likely it is at the bottom of the list for the concerns of a DI. The control of the dice through the air , the table and the pyramids i think are the biggest.
Quote: AhighThanks for the kind comments. I really am interested, it's just I have no time. I am really enjoying the work I'm doing at the office so that's what has my attention right now.
There is nothing wrong with acknowledging your resentment towards forum members. You were relentlessly ridiculed. Hell, I was ridiculed by proxy for attempting to reach out to you. These requests could easily by agenda driven. Remember "Carrie"? Dude just say that your feelings are hurt and that your research is no longer public domain, thusly free from forum fodder. All I've been reading on this forum is speculation as to why DI doesn't work~who can convince a jury that it does?
References with solid data please.Quote: nickolay411This kind of Air resistance is negligible unless of course you've got a big fan blowing your dice around. From a lot of physics tests done with coins and dice most of the time air resistance isn't a factor.
Quote: MaxSwelleAll I've been reading on this forum is speculation as to why DI doesn't work~who can convince a jury that it does?
Nobody has adduced a shred of proof from the witness box as to the alleged efficacy of DI thus far.
*taps toes, looks at watch*
Quote: AxelWolfReferences with solid data please.
My new book will detail the cyclonic effect of air molecules on the top dice surface with a properly executed toss.
Quote: AxelWolfReferences with solid data please.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/chaos/22/4/10.1063/1.4746038#
Quote: BuzzardMy new book will detail the cyclonic effect of air molecules on the top dice surface with a properly executed toss.
I hope you will include a quasi-mythical figure who, guru-like, caused your DI epiphany.
Oh, and you'll need a posse.
I mean, you'll need an entourage.
What about the effect of fiber molecules on the felt?Quote: BuzzardMy new book will detail the cyclonic effect of air molecules on the top dice surface with a properly executed toss.
I have also submitted my application for Magnificent Randi's $1,000,000 challenge.
Quote: AxelWolfWhat about the effect of fiber molecules on the felt?
Cyclonic action versus static molecules was my breakthrough.
Quote: AxelWolfReferences with solid data please.
A simple definition of air resistance is called Drag. Drag is actually beneficial because it slows moving objects down thus dampening their energy. If air resistance were not present objects would never reach a terminal velocity, thus constantly accelerating.
The amount of air resistance or drag that is encountered by the dice is determined by a few factors. The speed of the dice and their cross sectional area. As you increase these factors air resistance increases. I'll let you make your own assumption here.
Most studies that have pertained to coins and dice that have shown non random results have neglected air resistance. Some studies even admit air resistance is negligible in those cases.
Some of my sources are below:
http://comptop.stanford.edu/u/preprints/heads.pdf ---- "We believe that for our short flips, air resistance has a negligible effect."
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/chaos/22/4/10.1063/1.4746038 <--- So much info...Worth the 4 dollars for the great read.
Quote: speedycrapI think it is time to close this thread.
Motion seconded.
Why?
Alan's search for opinions as to why Sharpshooter is full of uh, "beans" is worth talking about.
Don't close the thread.
If people go too far, suspend or ban them, otherwise let the fur fly.
No need to shut down the thread, just stop being so rude.
Nobody will ever provide a proof that it's impossible to advantage play craps. Stating that you believe that it's not possible is more a demonstration of failure to use logic than stating that you know it's possible because you won over a brief series of rolls.
Quote: AhighI think if you have already decided that it's not possible to advantage play craps and have stated as such, you shouldn't even post to the "Dice Setting" forum at all.
No need to shut down the thread, just stop being so rude.
Nobody will ever provide a proof that it's impossible to advantage play craps. Stating that you believe that it's not possible is more a demonstration of failure to use logic than stating that you know it's possible because you won over a brief series of rolls.
Disagree with those who think the thread needs to be closed.
Also disagree that this thread should be restricted only to those who agree with one side of the discussion.
Agree that this thread is subject to the same rules as the rest of the forum.
Carry on. :)
Quote: AhighI think if you have already decided that it's not possible to advantage play craps and have stated as such, you shouldn't even post to the "Dice Setting" forum at all.
No need to shut down the thread, just stop being so rude.
Nobody will ever provide a proof that it's impossible to advantage play craps. Stating that you believe that it's not possible is more a demonstration of failure to use logic than stating that you know it's possible because you won over a brief series of rolls.
I have a better idea. Put any dice influence/dice control posts in a specified area, maybe called "pretend things" or "false hopes" or maybe "Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy and Dice Influencing lives here". Anything that there is no shred of proof for can go in that section. Maybe even combine it with the "Systems" section. Then those that are interested in real craps topics don't have to sift through all this garbage and the new DI section can be ignored.
ZCore13
Just block this thread and/or play another game.
Leave us successful DI's to discuss our science in peace.
Quote: AhighI think if you have already decided that it's not possible to advantage play craps and have stated as such, you shouldn't even post to the "Dice Setting" forum at all.
No need to shut down the thread, just stop being so rude.
Nobody will ever provide a proof that it's impossible to advantage play craps. Stating that you believe that it's not possible is more a demonstration of failure to use logic than stating that you know it's possible because you won over a brief series of rolls.
Will anyone ever PROVE that ANYONE is able to advantage play craps? "Possible" needs to be taken out of the equation. In theory, it is "possible" that someone could throw the dice the exact same way each time, hit the same spot, and maybe even have the same result..."possible" being that no one is doing it now but it "could" happen.
Let's get more concrete than that--is anyone, today, playing with an advantage due to dice influence, control, etc.? If they are, offer proof.
It is kind of like EvenBob's claim that he wins at Roulette--without proof of how he does it, how can we take it seriously? Of course, if I COULD play with an advantage at Roulette or Craps, I would not tell anyone or write a book about it...so, absent proof, people aren't going to just "believe" it happens.
Quote: beachbumbabsDisagree with those who think the thread needs to be closed.
I recall a wager that if Dice control took longer to settle than the Higgs Boson particle, it wasn't worth having any threads about it.
aQuote: RonCWill anyone ever PROVE that ANYONE is able to advantage play craps? "Possible" needs to be taken out of the equation. In theory, it is "possible" that someone could throw the dice the exact same way each time, hit the same spot, and maybe even have the same result..."possible" being that no one is doing it now but it "could" happen.
Let's get more concrete than that--is anyone, today, playing with an advantage due to dice influence, control, etc.? If they are, offer proof.
It is kind of like EvenBob's claim that he wins at Roulette--without proof of how he does it, how can we take it seriously? Of course, if I COULD play with an advantage at Roulette or Craps, I would not tell anyone or write a book about it...so, absent proof, people aren't going to just "believe" it happens.
I was moments away from revealing, to this forum and ultimately the world, a pacifier of truth for the collective mouths of all DI detractors. Luckily RonC referenced EvenBob's claims of his AP roulette endeavors and it doubled as a cattle prod to the stones. A major eye opener! Why reveal such a thing in order to prove a point? Afterall, the detractors would probably still require an in person demonstration if video proof was provided. And the validity of exerting a viable influence to a pair of casino dice, thrown on a casino table would no doubt cause waves.(none of which would be welcomed) Oh, and I have no idea how to attach a video clip to any of my posts was the other reason.
Quote: Zcore13I have a better idea.
There's something I would like to see a proof of.
Quote: AhighThere's something I would like to see a proof of.
Well thought out...just like when you accused casinos of willfully cheating craps player or that you could influence the dice.
Didn't you say you were leaving again?
ZCore13
Quote: AlanMendelsonIt's been a waste of time.
Thank you! And not too many have read The Torah either!
What he writes is wonderful in theory.
Sure, let's keep the dice on axis.
Why not?
I'll tell you why not: because too many influences affect them; so many in fact that no semblance of control is possible.
Without being able to keep dem bones smooth, straight and square, there is no point pursuing the dream of becoming a master DI.
Can't happen.
GIGO.
Quote: AlanMendelsontypical for this forum, little has been presented about what Sharpshooter actually wrote, and most participants are shooting off their own opinions without even having read the book. It's been a waste of time.
I personally don't read fiction. I read about real things that happen in the casino industry. There is plenty of that to read.
ZCore13
Quote: AlanMendelsontypical for this forum, little has been presented about what Sharpshooter actually wrote, and most participants are shooting off their own opinions without even having read the book. It's been a waste of time.
I read the book. Still sounds like baloney. Scientific yes but still not enough to convince me. Good thing I didn't pay for fiction disguised as non fiction
Quote: Zcore13Well thought out...just like when you accused casinos of willfully cheating craps player or that you could influence the dice.
Thanks, Jeff. You're pretty darn good at thinking yourself, buddy.
There has been a lot of money made off the DI thing, and it hasn't been the shooters that has been making it. Some of these so-called experts are nothing but a joke if you ever saw them shooing in a casino. They make their money off their classes, and the other junk they sell. They don't make it in the casinos, that is why they have their day jobs!
They made their slick videos, with the great editing that they did to produce a very sellable product to anybody looking for a magic bullet. Once there was one school, others were looking for some easy money, and they got in on the ground floor too. DI exploded onto the Internet, these guys were making some serious money. But they had one problem, they needed to convince their followers that they were above everybody else. That didn't take to long to do when they coined these now famous words, (Random Roller)!
Now that the stage was set, they needed one more ingredient in their master plan. Along comes the great fiction writers that piled on top of everything else. They now had their magic bullet that they could sell in a very convincing manner.
The first thing a conman does separate his sucker from the rest of people around them! So like any good conman they did that with the so-called random rollers, after all you can't make money if you bet on anybody but yourself or another so-called DI is what they were telling all of their follower!
They already had a few books in place that was writing about how some conman would cheat when playing craps with the old time shots that they used, what they forgot to tell their suckers was that all of those shots were used on either hard surfaces, with no diamonds on the walls, or on blankets where the dice only rolled a few inches and never hit a back wall.
They took these shots from Scarne's Book, that was written to warn the servicemen during World War II. If you have a copy of his book you will find all of these shots starting on page 254 and ending on page 291. The one thing we should get perfectly clear is what these shots were made on. They were not thrown through the air four foot or more, most only rolled a few inches.
Scarne's Book was a godsend, to the guys selling becoming a DI. They had a very respected author that wrote about these types of shots that were making some cooks money! It wasn't very hard to convince their students that they could make money by becoming a DI. After all they were looking for the magic bullet. None of these shots will work on a modern day craps table.
Now days anybody can go out buy a slow-motion video camera and when you start looking at what happens with the dice when they hit the table, it becomes quite obvious, that the dice are not staying on axis. The argument that the dice stay on axis can be taking right out of the equation.
Now going back to good old common sense, if these instructors and owners of these on axis schools could keep their dice on axis wouldn't you think that they would have posted one video by now? I still have to give Stanford Wong all the credit in the world, for saying that after watching a slow motion video, he never would've tried to become a DI. Now this is coming from a author that is still selling his book on dice control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iWapKXDCH0&feature=youtu.be&t=25m30s
Quote: Zcore13I have a better idea. Put any dice influence/dice control posts in a specified area,
ZCore13
I have a even better idea. Read the sub forum you are in... It's called Dice Setting. If you want To read about real craps you should go to the Craps sub forum. You are the second person to make this mistake. You've wasted your own time by getting lost...
