LarryS
LarryS
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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July 15th, 2014 at 9:18:01 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

MrV do you wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and start arguing with yourself? Do you talk to yourself while driving asking yourself if you really need to drive now?

Axel made what I think is an honest statement just in case someone really can influence dice.

Its like when an agnostic is dying and prays to God just in case.



it depends what you mean by "try".

For example when dying an agnostic can pray and it takes an extra 5 seconds .

But if you want to "try" DI.......i have read that it takes hundreds of hours of practice. Its not like walking up to a buffet table and "trying" goose liver pate.

from what I am told, influencing dice requires people to practice practice practice...often with a table in their home.

If dice influencing is even possible....you cant read a booklet and run to a table and "try" it. Just as you cannot read a book on magic and run out and successfully do the tricks. It takes hundreds of hours to get the tricks right.

In fact I look at DI as i do magicians. The magicians that do close up magic..needing incredible hand eye coordination and dexterity. There are thousands of people that each spend thousands of hours trying to perfect their "moves"...and only a very select handful emerge.

The rest end up making 50 dollars a night at a magic club or a birthday party....or going back to their job at fedex.

The same with DI....I feel that ifit is possible there may be only a tiny select few that can make it work at least sporatically.
after hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of hours of practice. Just like "magic".
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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July 15th, 2014 at 9:20:15 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

The Wiz advises NOT to hedge your bets.



God help you.
DeMango
DeMango
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
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July 15th, 2014 at 9:32:09 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

God help you.



Odds are way against that happening. A warm future is in the forecast!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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July 15th, 2014 at 9:40:13 PM permalink
Quote: LarryS

it depends what you mean by "try".

For example when dying an agnostic can pray and it takes an extra 5 seconds .

But if you want to "try" DI.......i have read that it takes hundreds of hours of practice. Its not like walking up to a buffet table and "trying" goose liver pate.

from what I am told, influencing dice requires people to practice practice practice...often with a table in their home.

If dice influencing is even possible....you cant read a booklet and run to a table and "try" it. Just as you cannot read a book on magic and run out and successfully do the tricks. It takes hundreds of hours to get the tricks right.

In fact I look at DI as i do magicians. The magicians that do close up magic..needing incredible hand eye coordination and dexterity. There are thousands of people that each spend thousands of hours trying to perfect their "moves"...and only a very select handful emerge.

The rest end up making 50 dollars a night at a magic club or a birthday party....or going back to their job at fedex.

The same with DI....I feel that ifit is possible there may be only a tiny select few that can make it work at least sporatically.
after hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of hours of practice. Just like "magic".



I look at DI like throwing darts. You have a precision made object (dart, dice) that you must cast in a prescribed manner in an attempt to hit a certain target. There are folks that can throw darts with a very high degree of precision, despite very distracting conditions (t.v. cameras, cheering crowds, air conditioning, hot lights...). I think Alan's three DI candidates could be capable of performing in a similar manner.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Ahigh
Ahigh
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July 15th, 2014 at 9:43:05 PM permalink
In order to test the efficacy of the notion, craps tournaments with an entry fee could be held where the shooters are given bets by a computer that they have to shoot into. The best shooter wins and no bets are placed. It is entirely a person-against-person shooting competition. If you had these competitions on a daily basis and the house still had a rake to make it profitable, we could see who came out a winner more often.

It would be a simple process to determine if it were possible to skillfully affect the outcome of the dice.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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July 15th, 2014 at 10:18:16 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

In order to test the efficacy of the notion, craps tournaments with an entry fee could be held where the shooters are given bets by a computer that they have to shoot into. The best shooter wins and no bets are placed. It is entirely a person-against-person shooting competition. If you had these competitions on a daily basis and the house still had a rake to make it profitable, we could see who came out a winner more often.

It would be a simple process to determine if it were possible to skillfully affect the outcome of the dice.



I'm not exactly sure what you are proposing, but I think that the goal of DIs is simply to increase the appearance of the 7 or decrease the appearance of the 7. I don't think anyone claims to be able to hit any particular number on demand.

So in your case, Ahigh, what is the test?
LarryS
LarryS
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July 16th, 2014 at 6:00:27 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I look at DI like throwing darts. You have a precision made object (dart, dice) that you must cast in a prescribed manner in an attempt to hit a certain target. There are folks that can throw darts with a very high degree of precision, despite very distracting conditions (t.v. cameras, cheering crowds, air conditioning, hot lights...). I think Alan's three DI candidates could be capable of performing in a similar manner.



i dont think its a close analogy. You dont hae to throw 2 darts simultaneously from one hand.And you CAN throw darts as softly or as hard as you like and still get the same result. Once the dart hits its destination ...the result is over. Once the die hits the back wall its fate is influenced by the back wall, gravity, and the spring of the landing spot surface. Also I am not sure but can you use your own darts whose weight you are accustomed to. Yet another variable with dice whose weights can vary from casino to casino...or from time of day within a casino.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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July 16th, 2014 at 6:40:56 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm not exactly sure what you are proposing, but I think that the goal of DIs is simply to increase the appearance of the 7 or decrease the appearance of the 7. I don't think anyone claims to be able to hit any particular number on demand.

So in your case, Ahigh, what is the test?



A computer could, for example, display the bet that the shooter has to roll into. For example, one unit on the pass line with odds after the comeout roll and no other bets would be the most obvious thing the shooter would have to try to defeat that is conceivable to beat.

In this circumstance, each shooter would have only 7 possible sets that would be optimal for each theoretically advantaged throw. The more sets you have memorized for various combinations of bets, the more advanced the shooters' ability to set the dice to get the best result. There are some shooters who don't know how to deal with the comeout roll and just throw the dice randomly on the comeout for example. But there is no limit to how deep this skill can be evolved assuming that a non-random throw can in fact be developed.

If you just wanted to test someone's shot though, forcing them to shoot into bets that they don't get to pick should, at a minimum, include requirements of shooting into a comeout pass line and shooting into an "odds on the 4,5,6,8,9, or 10."

Part of the theoretical skill in shooting the dice in craps is knowing how to optimally set the dice given a complex arrangement of bets with multiple outcomes. I don't know very many people who have gone as deep into this area of skill in craps (knowing how to set the dice for a particular theoretically biased throw). But if you gave me a million rolls from a particular shot on a particular table with a particular biased outcome on the left and right dice, I can come up with how to set the dice for any bet or any arrangement of bets given software that I wrote.

This area of skill in craps in meaningless until you can get past the point of knowing you have an advantaged throw on a given table. Random throws are better than biased throws when you combine a known biased shot with the least optimal set. This gets at your point of "trying doesn't hurt." It can hurt to try if you are getting the results that cause you to lose and press into your losses thinking you just got unlucky and keep shooting the same way.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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July 16th, 2014 at 6:48:05 AM permalink
You're asking too much. I don't know of any legitimate DI (or advocate of DI) who will even pretend that he can use specific sets to hit specific numbers. they all use different sets to either increase the chance of a 7 or decrease the chance of a 7.

If you are going to start doing "tests" of hitting particular numbers you are going to have a hard time trying to find people who will take part... because as I said no one who is legitimate is going to claim that ability.
Buzzard
Buzzard
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July 16th, 2014 at 7:21:00 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I will now expect any response from those who believe to change th e subjects, as usual.
MONEY TALKS AND BULLSHIT WALKS




Sure enough 13 more posts and no response to putting any money on the line.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

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