What does it take to have confidence in influence?
That's why someone came up with the word fluke. ( perhaps it was your grandfather invented the word ;)Quote: beachbumbabsNow that there was funny, I don't care what side of this argument you take. (And I take the opposite side simply because I saw it done. One guy. But that's enough to say it can be done.)
Quote: AxelWolfThat's why someone came up with the word fluke. ( perhaps it was your grandfather invented the word ;)
Yeah, my grandfather was a real wordsmithy, under the spreading chestnut tree. Wrote that too! lol at me. Never gonna trust my mom's word on anything again, I can tell you that!
Quote: RonCI won't say it can't be done but I am thinking that there is a lot more money in JUST DOING IT than in selling a few books or seminars. If I were able to do it, my preference would be to be quiet about it and go from casino to casino winning money enough at a time to make a great living but not too much to draw attention. There just isn't that much money in niche books (how many people read about craps?) or in seminars (even 10 people at $2,500 a pop is only $25K...a day or two of work for an influencer).
I guess you could say that the seminars and books are guaranteed money while the playing daily is not, but the other point is why let people know what you are doing?
There is an old saying...it may not be totally true but it is applicable in many cases...those who can, do...those who can't, teach...
Do I think someone can influence the dice? Maybe. Do I think they can teach others to do so consistently? Doubtful.
I remeber being on the patrick site where the board owner would proclaim that you could be a full time gambler using his methods. But its been brought up that in the last 25 years of that website, no one person has come on the board and posted "thanks john...I have raised my family over the last 10 years using your methods". Zero.
With DI---after all the books and classes sold, The info online available, all the people that bought craps tables for their home practice, all the hype and ferver over this oer the last 20 years. The casinos still feel this activity is of little significance totheir bottom line in that they dont outlaw it. They could easily have a "no setting" rule. But either DI cant be done , or it can be doneby such a miniscule about of people that the casinos would easily take their loses with the miniscule group...and rake in the money from the 99.9 percent of the others "trying" to DI....but just cant quite do it.
And then there is the reality, that casinos can vary the weight of the dice, the table conditions....to make even the handful of successful DI to be thwarted.
It doesnt seem to be worth chasing. With t he hundreds or thousands of hours needed to gain experience....it seems easily combated with different size dice or refelting tables
Quote: AxelWolfYou think he was going to say, I WAS WRONG, sorry I sold you guys books and touted DI, a refund is in order to the 99.9999% of you who lost money and rushed out to take $1500 Di classes?
I never got the impression that Wong was squeezing a lot of money out of dice. He wrote his book, which i didn't buy, and sold Yuri's book, which I did buy. I think he expands the appeal of his board a small amount, but he was never in the big leagues of selling people dreams.
I've placed enough bets in high counts at blackjack to understand the appeal of teaching rather than doing. You just never know what's going to happen, even if I can look back and say that it's worked for me over the long haul. The ROI is still a tough to sell to the wife :-)
I have seen some of the most sophisticated dedicated, successful AP's in many different games, guys with far more money then needed to be successful at this. All the proper tools including REAL casino craps tables, try DI. Lets just say they don't try anymore.Quote: BobRI never got the impression that Wong was squeezing a lot of money out of dice. He wrote his book, which i didn't buy, and sold Yuri's book, which I did buy. I think he expands the appeal of his board a small amount, but he was never in the big leagues of selling people dreams.
I've placed enough bets in high counts at blackjack to understand the appeal of teaching rather than doing. You just never know what's going to happen, even if I can look back and say that it's worked for me over the long haul. The ROI is still a tough to sell to the wife :-)
Maybe they didn't have the appropriate skill set. Ive carried a +handicap in golf most of my adult life. I was light years from ever making money on the tour. Michael Jordan was a heck of a basketball player, baseball not so much. Just because someone wants to be great at something that requires skill or dexterity doesn't mean they can be.Quote: AxelWolfI have seen some of the most sophisticated dedicated, successful AP's in many different games, guys with far more money then needed to be successful at this. All the proper tools including REAL casino craps tables, try DI. Lets just say they don't try anymore.
A great way to start the day off.Quote: AxelWolfYou can practice till the cows come home and will have no better results then the cows
And after the cows come home you can argue with them about whether your results are "significantly different than chance". Some things are difficult to measure. Overall quality of a hotel, differences between restaurants or chefs, actress's abilities are simply too subjective to arrive at anything other than a range of conclusions all of which are valid but still not precise.
Alot of this stuff about Dice Influencing reminds me of the soldier on a remote outpost who when asked what time it was replied: Its July, Sir. Dice control requires construction of a practice table, years of practice and then all you get is an argument in the end. If dice control is a ten year project, i prefer to move on to some other task far sooner.
Surely after ten years of someone else practicing each day, I'd be interested in seeing the results but I'm not willing to devote ten years to it. Its already a very fine hair, I see no need to devote ten years to splitting it ever more exquisitely fine.
The casinos... they just want you to pick em up and throw em. When I'm at the craps table, thats what I want and thats what I do.
Until the casinos start declaring bankruptcy, Dice Control does not work. For the guys who do have dice control... just keep playing. No seminars or nuttin'. I sure wouldn't take a break from the table if I were actually controlling the dice.
Dice influencing (To avoid the 7 at all costs) is possible and is just like riding a bicycle (you don't lose it when you learn)
Anything is possible, many strategies including placing a wager on the hardest bets are made possible and profitable when DI's are in play.
Quote: CrapsGeniousDice control is impossible. I don't believe anyone including a robot can control dice to perform a certain action and repeat it on a daily basis.
Dice influencing (To avoid the 7 at all costs) is possible and is just like riding a bicycle (you don't lose it when you learn)
Anything is possible, many strategies including placing a wager on the hardest bets are made possible and profitable when DI's are in play.
oh thats a whole different thing then. The dice arent "controlled"//they are influenced " to avoid the 7 at all costs"
thats funny.
I remember as a teen working on the boardwalk at seaside heights. I was a helper at the arcade game of basketball. If you make 2 out of 3 you get a small stuffed animal, and if you get 3 out of 3 you get a large.
There were guys trying to get their girl the big prize. Little did they know that the rim was not a standard, and was bent a little to make almost a perfect shot with perfect arc needed to get it to go thru. But on top of that...just in case someone started getting good at it....different balls were used on different days, sometime changed out during the day. Balls of different weights, or slightly overinflated.. So once someone "got a feel" for winning.....the conditions were changed. I suspect that the distance to the basket and/or heights may have slightly changed...I think that the basket could be moved back and forth a few inches and up/down.
Same with craps. The casinos can change the size/weight of dice, the table top conditions, the back wall conditions. They can instruct the stick to move towrd you, making you have to step back a step..thereby making your roll longer than practiced. They can change table sizes. The time and effort needed to get precise results at a table under the precise conditions that were practiced under, can all go down the drain when the casinos simply make the changes I listed.
Quote: LarrySoh thats a whole different thing then. The dice arent "controlled"//they are influenced " to avoid the 7 at all costs"
thats funny.
I remember as a teen working on the boardwalk at seaside heights. I was a helper at the arcade game of basketball. If you make 2 out of 3 you get a small stuffed animal, and if you get 3 out of 3 you get a large.
There were guys trying to get their girl the big prize. Little did they know that the rim was not a standard, and was bent a little to make almost a perfect shot with perfect arc needed to get it to go thru. But on top of that...just in case someone started getting good at it....different balls were used on different days, sometime changed out during the day. Balls of different weights, or slightly overinflated.. So once someone "got a feel" for winning.....the conditions were changed. I suspect that the distance to the basket and/or heights may have slightly changed...I think that the basket could be moved back and forth a few inches and up/down.
Same with craps. The casinos can change the size/weight of dice, the table top conditions, the back wall conditions. They can instruct the stick to move towrd you, making you have to step back a step..thereby making your roll longer than practiced. They can change table sizes. The time and effort needed to get precise results at a table under the precise conditions that were practiced under, can all go down the drain when the casinos simply make the changes I listed.
What I mean by "Control" is, you can't just say on comeout "I'm gonna roll a 8" then set the dice and roll the 8. That's pure coincidence if that happens and many DI's will wish they can make that happen.
fact is for those who choose to set the dice have a very good chance that they will not roll the "7" so for example if I'm shooting for a 4 or 10, I will set the dice to the mini-v set in hopes to make one of those numbers but also knowing, I have a good chance of not rolling a 7 at the same time.
If DI's could predict the outcome more than 75% of the time, Casino's would go broke.
They were very skilled and a diverse group the "unskilled" People with bad ssr numbers didn't shoot. This was not a cheesy operation. Guys that could do brain surgery, hit a target most people couldn't, I know one guy that excelled in any hand eye coordination sport he played.Quote: JB85Maybe they didn't have the appropriate skill set. Ive carried a +handicap in golf most of my adult life. I was light years from ever making money on the tour. Michael Jordan was a heck of a basketball player, baseball not so much. Just because someone wants to be great at something that requires skill or dexterity doesn't mean they can be.
Some guys had as close to perfect rolls as you could get.
They didn't just give up, they played for a very long time, some were even up some money when they gave up.
Name one advantage that has been around for this many years yet it's still debated if it can or can't be done?
Why is it that no one has come close to proving this? Can you name something that's similar to tossing dice that is based on physical skill that a machine cant be built to do?
I would love to see just one bit of some proof.
Quote: AxelWolfThey were very skilled and a diverse group the "unskilled" People with bad ssr numbers didn't shoot. This was not a cheesy operation. Guys that could do brain surgery, hit a target most people couldn't, I know one guy that excelled in any hand eye coordination sport he played.
Some guys had as close to perfect rolls as you could get.
They didn't just give up, they played for a very long time, some were even up some money when they gave up.
Name one advantage that has been around for this many years yet it's still debated if it can or can't be done?
Why is it that no one has come close to proving this? Can you name something that's similar to tossing dice that is based on physical skill that a machine cant be built to do?
I would love to see just one bit of some proof.
You can not prove a skill on paper with figures, You can only witness it at a real live table. I work part time as a machinist running the milling machine for 6hrs per shift. I can say I am the best at what I do but can not prove it unless someone was to see my work. Same thing goes for the craps table.
Proof is in the applause I get, the many high fives after making another point, walking up to the table and other players remember you from the last time you were there, other players requesting you to shoot and others just passing the dice around the table back to you for another hot round, hearing the stick man saying "hot shooter" when I shoot the dice and make a couple "buckshot" points. That's all proof enough for me.
In your case, proof for me, would be if the cashiers at the bank gave you hi fives, when you rolled your wheel barrel full if money in to deposit .Quote: CrapsGeniousYou can not prove a skill on paper with figures, You can only witness it at a real live table. I work part time as a machinist running the milling machine for 6hrs per shift. I can say I am the best at what I do but can not prove it unless someone was to see my work. same thing goes for the craps table.
Proof is in the applause I get, the many high fives after making another point, walking up to the table and other players remember you from the last time you were there, other players requesting you to shoot and others just passing the dice around the table back to you for another hot round, hearing the stick man saying "hot shooter" when I shoot the dice and make a couple "buckshot" points. That's all proof enough for me.
Quote: AxelWolfIn your case, proof for me, would be if the cashiers at the bank gave you hi fives, when you rolled your wheel barrel full if money in to deposit .
I see dice influencing much more differently, more like the high from rolling many numbers and making people smile, sure there are plenty of ways to make money at the table, but money is not what is in the mind of a DI.
If money is your choice for proof, just grab a bank roll of $500 to $1000.00 and head on over to the casino and watch the craps table for a round and try to spot the DI shooters. (In most cases they are easy to spot on either side of the stick man). Watch them and find out the primary numbers they roll and Bingo! you will have that wheel barrel full of cash in no time flat from betting on their numbers.
I may have mentioned this in another post, but last weekend I noticed a shooter rolling elevens (at least 3 before a seven) he rolled 11's again on another round, then again on another table round.
I started to bet the 11 and low and behold, I was "in the money"
Trend betting is awesome if you can not be a DI.
By the way, you will rarely see that wheel barrel thing happen at a bank when Casino's offer "Front Line" accounts for gamblers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0Quote: CrapsGeniousI see dice influencing much more differently, more like the high from rolling many numbers and making people smile, sure there are plenty of ways to make money at the table, but money is not what is in the mind of a DI.
If money is your choice for proof, just grab a bank roll of $500 to $1000.00 and head on over to the casino and watch the craps table for a round and try to spot the DI shooters. (In most cases they are easy to spot on either side of the stick man). Watch them and find out the primary numbers they roll and Bingo! you will have that wheel barrel full of cash in no time flat from betting on their numbers.
I may have mentioned this in another post, but last weekend I noticed a shooter rolling elevens (at least 3 before a seven) he rolled 11's again on another round, then again on another table round.
I started to bet the 11 and low and behold, I was "in the money"
Trend betting is awesome if you can not be a DI.
By the way, you will rarely see that wheel barrel thing happen at a bank when Casino's offer "Front Line" accounts for gamblers
I would be a little convinced if you could prove high returns on your investment at the table over a sufficiently lengthy period. If indeed you (or any DI) can stop the seven from showing up, cashing in should be a regular occurrence. While this isn't a mathematically proper test, it would help convince me that you did SOMETHING other than just make tons of bad bets (fire best, hard ways, etc.).
Otherwise, I am not convinced Dice Control or Influence exist.
Craps is a great game. The house has the edge, though, and I am not sure anyone can change that.
+10 since he has been awarded no points you get his.Quote: RonCDI, if it truly happens, can be proven by facts and figures. Over the right amount of tests (that amount is for the math people to set as a proper test) either one meets the standard of influencing the dice or they don't. If your definition of DI is that you'll roll less sevens than the random rollers, that would be the test--your number of sevens rolled compared to what the average should be after the proper number of trials.
I would be a little convinced if you could prove high returns on your investment at the table over a sufficiently lengthy period. If indeed you (or any DI) can stop the seven from showing up, cashing in should be a regular occurrence. While this isn't a mathematically proper test, it would help convince me that you did SOMETHING other than just make tons of bad bets (fire best, hard ways, etc.).
Otherwise, I am not convinced Dice Control or Influence exist.
Craps is a great game. The house has the edge, though, and I am not sure anyone can change that.
Quote: CrapsGeniousI see dice influencing much more differently, more like the high from rolling many numbers and making people smile, sure there are plenty of ways to make money at the table, but money is not what is in the mind of a DI.
Quote: CrapsGeniousYou can not prove a skill on paper with figures, You can only witness it at a real live table. I work part time as a machinist running the milling machine for 6hrs per shift. I can say I am the best at what I do but can not prove it unless someone was to see my work. Same thing goes for the craps table.
Proof is in the applause I get, the many high fives after making another point, walking up to the table and other players remember you from the last time you were there, other players requesting you to shoot and others just passing the dice around the table back to you for another hot round, hearing the stick man saying "hot shooter" when I shoot the dice and make a couple "buckshot" points. That's all proof enough for me.
being a machinist in 6 hour shifts seems like a labor intensive job, and might even carry a little risk of injury.
So I ask this not to be funny....but as a logical question to your response.
If you are doing so well, that you are recognized bu others, get your hand shaked, get complimented.....to the point where people know who you are,,,,and know of your talents......why do you even need to work as a machinist?
Its pretty cushy,to be throwing dice and getting paid. No one at the machine shop is hi-fiving you or serving you free soft drinks and buying you meals
In general when someone tells me that they have a talent or a system that wins consistantly....but they still keep their dayjob.....i have to question their definition of "winning consistantly",,.....I have to question the reality and the truthfullness of the claim
seems to be much better than money earned.
My office bills out $125 an hour for my time, and i get paid whether or not some one agrees
with my findings, and no one stands up and gives me a high five no matter how much i make
them or save them.
Monday night i had 6 5's in a row and people seemed to think that was something special,
fist pumps etc... that was luck end of story.... it was more fun than work, but without my work
i could not afford to have the fun.
When forums like this get some one like Crapsgenious on here that implies you win every time your
at the table as a DI and people follow you around etc..... that is a here today gone tomorrow story, We
all had streaks like that.... then there are other streaks.
When a person begins to play for that glory then what follows????? i have several friends that play
for it.... free trips, high roller treatment, high fives and on and on... and then $30,000 $40,000 loss
on each trip, but the one win of $40,000 is worth the loss of $250,000 a year. Another good friend
plays just to see the table cheer and holler at him, plays 8,10,12 hours a day just to have the one roll
to hear the cheers..... and the over-all loss is staggering.
When you hear crapsgenious or others tell you they win everytime ....... just remember the statement.... " you can keep your
doctor...period"
dicesetter
