What does it take to have confidence in influence?
December 11th, 2013 at 9:13:10 PM
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Hi, guys. I'm sure this is a FAQ somewhere, but I'm not solid enough on my stats to understand about confidence levels and results.
How many rolls do I need to record in the casino with a 15% sevens to rolls ratio (# sevens / total number of rolls) to be reasonably confident that I'm affecting the dice? That a skeptic would believe that there is something going on?
I'm basically a by-the-numbers guy and have been sticking to card counting and VP before this, but have been practicing with dice for a few years. It's really hard to feel confident that I'm doing it well, or well enough, but I seem to be beating the vig and keeping my SRR below 15% overall. So how long do I have to keep it up before it is likely I am doing something right, and not just lucky?
Thanks - Bob
How many rolls do I need to record in the casino with a 15% sevens to rolls ratio (# sevens / total number of rolls) to be reasonably confident that I'm affecting the dice? That a skeptic would believe that there is something going on?
I'm basically a by-the-numbers guy and have been sticking to card counting and VP before this, but have been practicing with dice for a few years. It's really hard to feel confident that I'm doing it well, or well enough, but I seem to be beating the vig and keeping my SRR below 15% overall. So how long do I have to keep it up before it is likely I am doing something right, and not just lucky?
Thanks - Bob
December 11th, 2013 at 9:25:46 PM
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2700 rolls with 405 or fewer 7s gives you 99% confidence.
1360 rolls with 204 or fewer 7s gives you 94.8% confidence.
1360 rolls with 204 or fewer 7s gives you 94.8% confidence.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
December 12th, 2013 at 12:03:20 AM
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Watch a slow motion Video of a perfect toss, then watch it bounce around the table. Then you will be confident you have NONE.Quote: BobRHi, guys. I'm sure this is a FAQ somewhere, but I'm not solid enough on my stats to understand about confidence levels and results.
How many rolls do I need to record in the casino with a 15% sevens to rolls ratio (# sevens / total number of rolls) to be reasonably confident that I'm affecting the dice? That a skeptic would believe that there is something going on?
I'm basically a by-the-numbers guy and have been sticking to card counting and VP before this, but have been practicing with dice for a few years. It's really hard to feel confident that I'm doing it well, or well enough, but I seem to be beating the vig and keeping my SRR below 15% overall. So how long do I have to keep it up before it is likely I am doing something right, and not just lucky?
Thanks - Bob
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 12th, 2013 at 1:17:16 PM
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Results will give you confidence.... and only that.
You can watch all the slow motion video you want, y ou can listen to all
the stuff on here, some good, some nonsense, you can see all the rolls others
have, the wins they have etc and it will not mean anything, because it has nothing
to do with you.
If you dont have some type of controlled toss, you dont have and will never have any
advantage..........period....
If you have developed a controlled roll and you practice and record "all" your rolls,
those records will tell you if you have some advantage and where it is.
If you keep track of your rolls in a particular casino, and record enough you can tell if
you have some advantage there, though that can and will vary from your home records.
I am not going to buy this notion that if your dice do not stay on axis during the entire
roll you have no advantage.....to me that is goofy, and it has not played out at all in
my results and records.
There can be different types and levels of advantage. a perfect roll over and over may well
produce a high advantage, a roll which is not perfect can also produce an advantage, though
not as high as a repeatable perfect roll.
If your records consistently indicate some change from random, there has to be a reason for
that, and to say well i see your toss on camera, and even though you appear to have an
advantage in results over and over... you really dont, is a statement made by some one that
has a bias against any level of possible control.
Conversely, if your toss looks good and records indicate you dont have results which vary from
random, you dont have any advantage.
dicesetter
You can watch all the slow motion video you want, y ou can listen to all
the stuff on here, some good, some nonsense, you can see all the rolls others
have, the wins they have etc and it will not mean anything, because it has nothing
to do with you.
If you dont have some type of controlled toss, you dont have and will never have any
advantage..........period....
If you have developed a controlled roll and you practice and record "all" your rolls,
those records will tell you if you have some advantage and where it is.
If you keep track of your rolls in a particular casino, and record enough you can tell if
you have some advantage there, though that can and will vary from your home records.
I am not going to buy this notion that if your dice do not stay on axis during the entire
roll you have no advantage.....to me that is goofy, and it has not played out at all in
my results and records.
There can be different types and levels of advantage. a perfect roll over and over may well
produce a high advantage, a roll which is not perfect can also produce an advantage, though
not as high as a repeatable perfect roll.
If your records consistently indicate some change from random, there has to be a reason for
that, and to say well i see your toss on camera, and even though you appear to have an
advantage in results over and over... you really dont, is a statement made by some one that
has a bias against any level of possible control.
Conversely, if your toss looks good and records indicate you dont have results which vary from
random, you dont have any advantage.
dicesetter
December 12th, 2013 at 7:09:24 PM
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Thanks, boymimbo. So far I have 800 rolls with under 15%, so I'll check back with you guys when I get to 1360 and let you know how it went. I have three casinos I frequent and so have been tracking my rolls at those places in particular. I am sometimes able to track my rolls at other joints, and it's been running about the same, but I decided in advance that I wasn't going to consider those part of my core stats.
Regarding my throw, I don't have to see it in slow motion to know that it sucks. I'll have a few throws that land the way I want to, and many that are just noise. I have fun, though, and so far the SRR and play results are tracking in my favor. We'll see if that dries up eventually or not.
- Bob
Regarding my throw, I don't have to see it in slow motion to know that it sucks. I'll have a few throws that land the way I want to, and many that are just noise. I have fun, though, and so far the SRR and play results are tracking in my favor. We'll see if that dries up eventually or not.
- Bob
December 12th, 2013 at 7:14:01 PM
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A few drinks and a diamond shaped blue pill?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
December 15th, 2013 at 6:26:31 AM
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Quote: dicesitter
There can be different types and levels of advantage. a perfect roll over and over may well
produce a high advantage, a roll which is not perfect can also produce an advantage, though
not as high as a repeatable perfect roll.
.
dicesetter
Wait wait wait... A perfect roll can produce an advantage? AND a NON-PERFECT throw can as well?
So is this the 'pick and choose' method of being a DI?
from the comments you said, it seems to only boil down to being a good shooter that day, or a bad shooter. So why is practice needed?
The records you keep for practice have absolutely zero value in live play. You can have peyton manning stats while practicing and look like Matt schaub as soon as you touch the table.
These are the only words you need to control the dice.... "TURN ME OFF, or TAKE ALL OF MY BETS DOWN"
Alot of people like to compare this to golf... But unless you are playing at a course that has a diamond pyramid bumper down the fairway or on the green, we are not even close to the what's happening on that table.
The Wolf713
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter"
-Mark Walberg
pain and Gain
December 15th, 2013 at 6:49:05 PM
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WOLF
Thanks for your reply, there are two answers for you.
First i think it makes sense to most people that there are diifferent level of abilities
between all people in sports, and shooting craps is a sport. Just like there is a difference
between a random guy and the best DI in the country, there is also a difference between
a di that has moderate ability and those that are very good.
Also as with any other sport, we are all different each time we play, nothing is ever just
100% like the last time you played.
And there are times when you should take your bets down, last night was an example we
were on a good roll, and guy came to the table and put his money on the rack waiting
for a clean time to buy in, next guy came up and leaned over right in front of my team
member just as he was starting his back swing and threw his money down....
we all turned off all out bets..end of story
So yes everything matters, your level of ability, your level of concentration or what ever you
want to call that night, and what is happening at the table. Also it may appear to be
pick and choose, if you are off it is just bad luck, if you are on, then you claim to be a
DI....i understand it may look that way to you,,,,,, but it only looks that way
dicesetter
Thanks for your reply, there are two answers for you.
First i think it makes sense to most people that there are diifferent level of abilities
between all people in sports, and shooting craps is a sport. Just like there is a difference
between a random guy and the best DI in the country, there is also a difference between
a di that has moderate ability and those that are very good.
Also as with any other sport, we are all different each time we play, nothing is ever just
100% like the last time you played.
And there are times when you should take your bets down, last night was an example we
were on a good roll, and guy came to the table and put his money on the rack waiting
for a clean time to buy in, next guy came up and leaned over right in front of my team
member just as he was starting his back swing and threw his money down....
we all turned off all out bets..end of story
So yes everything matters, your level of ability, your level of concentration or what ever you
want to call that night, and what is happening at the table. Also it may appear to be
pick and choose, if you are off it is just bad luck, if you are on, then you claim to be a
DI....i understand it may look that way to you,,,,,, but it only looks that way
dicesetter
December 16th, 2013 at 7:48:18 AM
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Quote:The Wolf713
Alot of people like to compare this to golf... But unless you are playing at a course that has a diamond pyramid bumper down the fairway or on the green, we are not even close to the what's happening on that table.
Craps can not be compared to any other sport or game. To start with those dice are square, they don't roll, they bounce, and when they do, they bounce all over the place.
Quote:The Wolf713
The records you keep for practice have absolutely zero value in live play. You can have peyton manning stats while practicing and look like Matt schaub as soon as you touch the table.
If you think what you do at home in the perfect environment is the same thing you are going to do on a casino craps table, I got news for you, you are just kidding yourself! There are way to many variables that effect what you are doing! You now have the other players, the dealers and let not forget the suits! Most players have no table etiquette, they will throw in bets while your shooting, they buy-in just as you are about to release the dice, sometimes your dice even hit their money as it's flying across the table.
Other craps players are your worst enemies, they will stop a roll from happening,with all the stupid things they do. So shooting at home and playing in a casino is like the difference between night and day! Shooting at home does not count, the only thing that matters is what you do in the casinos you go to!
Now, I have played craps with dicesetter and he does have all the confidence in the world, but I think that he will tell you that he can't win every time that he walks into a casino. Confidence or over confidence can be like a deadly sword, if you don't have good common sense to go along with it. It will cut you up into little pieces if you don't know when to quit. Casinos are built on players that didn't know when to quit!
...
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
...
December 16th, 2013 at 8:54:02 AM
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IF one has the ability to influence the dice, All that can be avoided.Quote: superrickMost players have no table etiquette, they will throw in bets while your shooting, they buy-in just as you are about to release the dice, sometimes your dice even hit their money as it's Casinos are built on players that didn't know when to quit!
...
"Casinos are built on players that didn't know when to quit!" I think this is a MYTH. Casinos are built on the math. Knowing when to quit is meaningless. Obviously the more time you spend playing a -ev game, the more you should lose in the long run. I have played some things that are break even, trying to earn comp's or some dumb crap. There are plenty of times when, I have been at a point when, I thought I should quit, but I didn't, then hit something big soon after. Now is it time to quit? Maybe, but did I? nope.... guess what? I Hit something even bigger. The best time to quit is... before or during playing something with a negative return.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 16th, 2013 at 1:58:04 PM
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Confidence
I surely agree with Superrick, confidence does not mean your going to win every time you get to a casino.
In fact you may well lose more times than you win,but confidence in what your doing will give you
enough support to make some changes while your playing, move the dice some, pack a different spot to
throw, little higher little lower etc. That way fewer larger wins can offset smaller losses.
When i indicated it was like other sports i did not mean you could compare craps to golf itself. but in your
preperation and concentration. The confidence you have also plays into that because like golf, a good golfer
hits a bad shot or gets a bad break, but that does not destroy his whole round. In craps if you have
confidence in what you can do, or for the sake of argument, in what you have done, it will alow you to guit
when your not rolling good, knowing you can get it back next time, whereas less confidence can lead you to
chase a loss, and wipe out your entire bank roll.
If you feel you can beat the table at any time, under any conditions, on any type of table, you are heading
for a rude awakening.
I surely agree with Superrick, confidence does not mean your going to win every time you get to a casino.
In fact you may well lose more times than you win,but confidence in what your doing will give you
enough support to make some changes while your playing, move the dice some, pack a different spot to
throw, little higher little lower etc. That way fewer larger wins can offset smaller losses.
When i indicated it was like other sports i did not mean you could compare craps to golf itself. but in your
preperation and concentration. The confidence you have also plays into that because like golf, a good golfer
hits a bad shot or gets a bad break, but that does not destroy his whole round. In craps if you have
confidence in what you can do, or for the sake of argument, in what you have done, it will alow you to guit
when your not rolling good, knowing you can get it back next time, whereas less confidence can lead you to
chase a loss, and wipe out your entire bank roll.
If you feel you can beat the table at any time, under any conditions, on any type of table, you are heading
for a rude awakening.
December 16th, 2013 at 3:23:28 PM
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" If you feel you can beat the table at any time, under any conditions, on any type of table, you are heading
for a rude awakening. "
Editor's note :
If you feel you can beat the table , you are heading for a rude awakening.
for a rude awakening. "
Editor's note :
If you feel you can beat the table , you are heading for a rude awakening.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 16th, 2013 at 9:27:32 PM
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Well
speaking just for myself..... i have found the harder you work at something,
the luckier you get, that is the basis for confidence... i have done this before
and i can do it again.
I would not walk up to a table and take money out of my pocket that took me
65 years to make thinking i had no chance, or that my hundreds and hundreds of
hours of practice will make no difference.
I think lacking confidence in your hard work and ability is just as bad as being
to over confident.
You wont find either in people that consistently do better than others.
You watch people like superrick, or i have seen Frank or Dominator or Stickman
of Bman pick up the dice. You dont even have to see them, just watch their
hands with the dice and you will see confidence. I love to watch that, i dont
even have to play. I hope some day some one watches me and says now that
guy can play the game.
dicesetter
dicesetter
speaking just for myself..... i have found the harder you work at something,
the luckier you get, that is the basis for confidence... i have done this before
and i can do it again.
I would not walk up to a table and take money out of my pocket that took me
65 years to make thinking i had no chance, or that my hundreds and hundreds of
hours of practice will make no difference.
I think lacking confidence in your hard work and ability is just as bad as being
to over confident.
You wont find either in people that consistently do better than others.
You watch people like superrick, or i have seen Frank or Dominator or Stickman
of Bman pick up the dice. You dont even have to see them, just watch their
hands with the dice and you will see confidence. I love to watch that, i dont
even have to play. I hope some day some one watches me and says now that
guy can play the game.
dicesetter
dicesetter
December 17th, 2013 at 1:28:25 AM
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There was once a group of 10 guys all AP's, all of them, smart and well bankrolled, each of them practiced DI the MIT way, on a real craps table, seriously and equally. They spent may month's sharpening their skill 20-30 hrs a week. they learned all the in's and outs, including table conditions. 7 of them seemed to have IT, 3 guys cut out for some reason, they could of taken action on others if they wanted to. Eventually everyone hit the casinos. Everyone worked both together and solo, in small groups and large groups at different times.No scheduled or long term deals.
A lot Practice sessions where real game play(not just tossing dice), where casino conditions were simulated. Ahole Dealers, real chips,loud people,Mexican kids running around (like at CC)
Fast forward a few years. Everyone lost significantly, but one guy. He won a significant amount Yep.... guess who won? that's right the guy with the least amount of skill overall,He had worst ss numbers.
Is it possible that 1 out of 7 guys could win from just luck, while believing it is skill? He is no longer playing.
For all the people that try DI seriously and fail. I have to believe, a few people will just have positive variance, even for a long period of time.
A lot Practice sessions where real game play(not just tossing dice), where casino conditions were simulated. Ahole Dealers, real chips,loud people,Mexican kids running around (like at CC)
Fast forward a few years. Everyone lost significantly, but one guy. He won a significant amount Yep.... guess who won? that's right the guy with the least amount of skill overall,He had worst ss numbers.
Is it possible that 1 out of 7 guys could win from just luck, while believing it is skill? He is no longer playing.
For all the people that try DI seriously and fail. I have to believe, a few people will just have positive variance, even for a long period of time.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 17th, 2013 at 7:58:50 AM
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Axel
I hear ya, but there is a dffierence between thinking you have an advantage
and having one. That means in a casino and not just in your office at home.
I also agree not many that start to get an advantage actually do.
But in the end, the more people that beleive winning is just not posssible
the better it is for those that can win.
Keep up the good work
dicesetter
I hear ya, but there is a dffierence between thinking you have an advantage
and having one. That means in a casino and not just in your office at home.
I also agree not many that start to get an advantage actually do.
But in the end, the more people that beleive winning is just not posssible
the better it is for those that can win.
Keep up the good work
dicesetter
December 17th, 2013 at 8:11:30 AM
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Confidence is being on a real advantage play, and playing well within the means of your bankroll. I'm so confident in this situation that I get bored and sleepy. I have to go in the bathroom periodically and throw water on my face to wake up.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
December 17th, 2013 at 8:24:45 AM
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You mean like a .25 9/6 progressive or something. If your talking about something where the edge is real big and the money just comes in at a steady rate. I'm always paranoid its going to end any second. The worst plays I have been on, are like .25 single line progressive slots, with a set up like Double Diamond or something. Or some high percent nickel play.Quote: mickeycrimmConfidence is being on a real advantage play, and playing well within the means of your bankroll. I'm so confident in this situation that I get bored and sleepy. I have to go in the bathroom periodically and throw water on my face to wake up.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 17th, 2013 at 8:39:33 AM
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I am not sure what that means, It defiantly dose not apply to me. The only difference is. I can prove with 100% that I have an advantage.And most math and gambling experts will agree with me. In some cases, I can prove I will win given a very short amount of time. With craps DI no one has ever proved they even have an advantage, most math and gambling experts agree.Quote: dicesitterAxel
That means in a casino and not just in your office at home.
Keep up the good work
dicesetter
With all the controversy concerning DI over the years, you think one person could show just a ounce of proof.
We have more proof of big foot then DI at least we have videos of one or 2 Bigfoot. Yet we don't have any video of a slow motion controlled shot.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 17th, 2013 at 11:20:22 AM
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axel
No DI in their right minds would show you that. There are a number of good ones, you wont ever
see them on a video.
Now you will see some showing you how a throw looks and should look.
Do you think a DI should walk over to Binions and say film this, i will show you how i can beat
you..... and then by the way i will be back next week with my buddies to play.
It is not much fun to work hard to get better and then be told you cant play here.
So a forum like this which detests the idea that anyone could ever get an advantage is
the best thing to happen to dice controll.
Dicesetter
No DI in their right minds would show you that. There are a number of good ones, you wont ever
see them on a video.
Now you will see some showing you how a throw looks and should look.
Do you think a DI should walk over to Binions and say film this, i will show you how i can beat
you..... and then by the way i will be back next week with my buddies to play.
It is not much fun to work hard to get better and then be told you cant play here.
So a forum like this which detests the idea that anyone could ever get an advantage is
the best thing to happen to dice controll.
Dicesetter
December 17th, 2013 at 11:35:26 AM
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Quote:Buzzard
Editor's note :
If you feel you can beat the table , you are heading for a rude awakening.
How true, the easiest person to beat is someone that is to cocky for their own good.
True DI's win by knowing how to bet, and having loss limits that work for them. Negative is still negative when you are shooting, you can't change a negative game and make it positive with just your shooting. Unlike card counting when the shoe is positive for you, you can't say that the dice are going positive. There will be times when you win, but there are times that there is nothing you can do. I don't know how many times I've walked up to a table and all the dealers tell me that the table has been cold all day, and guess what they were right, time to switch to the dark-side!
The trouble with most DI's is they will not change with the table conditions. You have quite a few that will only play the dark-side, and when the table gets hot they keep on doing what they think is the right way to play thinking that the table will change back again, and they are wrong! The same thing goes for the right-side players, they will never think to go to the dark-side , when the table is ice-cold.
You have the guys that were taught to only bet the 6's and 8's and even though they are only throwing outside numbers they will never change the way they are betting, these are the guys that have all the confidence in the world that they will only roll those 6's and 8's and go down in flame when they can't hit them. I guess that nobody ever told them the game of craps is about avoiding the 7, and to bet on what you are rolling! So confidence can and will get any player into trouble if you don't use good old fashion commonsense with it!
...
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
...
December 17th, 2013 at 11:45:49 AM
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I keep hearing this argument. It sounds logical, but its just not true. If it was, books like beat the dealer would not have popped up so quickly. We would not have any Bob dancers, or Wizards or Wongs. We would not have books dealing with edge sorting, hole carding, shuffle tracking and so on. Out of all the things I mentioned even if DI is possible it has to be the least profitable out of all of them. Come on If someone like Wong thinks this is not worth the effort. You certainly are not going to convince anyone it is. If smart talented AP's with tons of practice, huge bankrolls and all the tools needed, including an exact matching casino craps table could not make it work. I don't know how you can.
Look at you, why are you on here talking about it? You should be agreeing with me, per your argument. How much are you up on DI?
Look at you, why are you on here talking about it? You should be agreeing with me, per your argument. How much are you up on DI?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
December 17th, 2013 at 1:23:17 PM
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Quote:Dicesetter
Do you think a DI should walk over to Binions and say film this, i will show you how i can beat
you..... and then by the way i will be back next week with my buddies to play.
Everybody's favorite guy that was trying to prove that there was DI's or maybe there wasn't, did exactly that and lets look were it got him!
Quote:ahigh
So I waited a while, and the tables were both empty. I go to the other table closest to the door with the girls working it. I put down $1,400 and before they can put the money in the drop-box Shawn comes over and said, "you action is not welcome here."
I'm not going to waste everybody's time on this quote, you can read about it over on his board if you want to. Just look at the thread Binions troubles
No real DI want's his or her face out there, and no real DI is going to give the crews a hard time when playing craps. While ahigh had his fun telling everybody that would listen that he was a great shooter, look at where it got him, but I guess that he can always look on the bright side of it, because he will save a lot of money shooting at home!
The moral of the story, don't post your photos all over the internet, if you want to play craps without dealing with the suits and dealers!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
...
December 17th, 2013 at 4:30:59 PM
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Quote: superrickQuote:Dicesetter
Do you think a DI should walk over to Binions and say film this, i will show you how i can beat
you..... and then by the way i will be back next week with my buddies to play.
Everybody's favorite guy that was trying to prove that there was DI's or maybe there wasn't, did exactly that and lets look were it got him!Quote:ahigh
So I waited a while, and the tables were both empty. I go to the other table closest to the door with the girls working it. I put down $1,400 and before they can put the money in the drop-box Shawn comes over and said, "you action is not welcome here."
I'm not going to waste everybody's time on this quote, you can read about it over on his board if you want to. Just look at the thread Binions troubles
No real DI want's his or her face out there, and no real DI is going to give the crews a hard time when playing craps. While ahigh had his fun telling everybody that would listen that he was a great shooter, look at where it got him, but I guess that he can always look on the bright side of it, because he will save a lot of money shooting at home!
The moral of the story, don't post your photos all over the internet, if you want to play craps without dealing with the suits and dealers!
I have to agree with Superrick on this one...
Breaking casinos and trying to be a star is the worst thing you could ever do as a good shooter. Sure there are plenty of places to play, but those places will get very small very quickly.
By definition and shooting style, most people call me a DI. They beg for classes and try to synchronize their trips to the casino with mine, and follow me all around casinos hoping I'll come back over and shoot the lights out "like they remembered from their last trip".
As a good shooter, you should learn to hide in your luck. My parr shot was so symmetrical, that heads would turn immediately when I would shoot. How long do you think you can go into a place throwing in the exact same spot on the exact same table with the winning results without anyone trying to stop your action?
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter"
-Mark Walberg
pain and Gain
December 18th, 2013 at 8:11:07 AM
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Quote: TheWolf713Quote:
My parr shot was so symmetrical, that heads would turn immediately when I would shoot. How long do you think you can go into a place throwing in the exact same spot on the exact same table with the winning results without anyone trying to stop your action?
That's part of the reason I came up with my secondary shot, it doesn't look like a controlled shot...or at least the controlled shot most casinos are used to seeing.
That said, I don't use my secondary throw a lot because I don't think casinos care too much unless your controlled throw is responsible for the table dumping large amounts of money and even then, it's usually just a few select smaller casinos.
December 18th, 2013 at 8:46:28 AM
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Quote:
TheWolf713
I have to agree with Superrick on this one...
Breaking casinos and trying to be a star is the worst thing you could ever do as a good shooter. Sure there are plenty of places to play, but those places will get very small very quickly.
This no longer holds true, if you get banned at MGM properties could you be banned from the 23 properties they now run? So lets say you just got banned from Bellagio, then how about Aria, MGM Grand, Mandalay Bay, The Marage, Monte Carlo, New York-New Your, Luxor, Excalibur, and lets not forget Circus Circus here in Las Vegas. Then how about any of the Boyd Casinos, or the Station Casino. You don't want to be a jerk and get banned from any casino. If your a DI, or card counter you don't want to be on any casinos hit list.
You want to be the nice guy that they only see every once in a while, you don't want the casino to see you to much. If you won big at one of them you stay away, and give them a break, you don't hit the same casinos over and over again everyday. I try to drive that home to all the DI's I know from out-of-town, and guess what they just don't listen, so one day they will get that tap on the shoulder telling them the casinos no longer wants their business!
For the local DI's that play in Vegas, it's all about trying to hide what you are doing, the same thing goes for the card counters, we don't rub the casinos faces in what we are doing!
...
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
...
December 18th, 2013 at 9:23:35 AM
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Exposure and winning big
The really big misconception here and i guess on every forum about craps is that a good DI
is a fraud or kidding himself unless he can go to the table and make big money.
The statement which is most funny is the " well how much are you ahead over your
craps playing days" that one is not much better than are you still beating your wife.
What these type questions indicate is that most people ( me included) really dont
understand what their exposure to loss is all about, and what aDI can do or cant
do.
Lets say you play craps 6 hours a week and there are about 100 rolls in each of the
3 -2 hour sessions. ( that can vary) Lets say you have a $5 line bet with 5 times odds
and like many players a $18 6 & 8. Now the book says you have only a 1.41-1.52%
loss expection. (hope no one beleives that) but for the sake of kicks and giggles we
use only a 2% loss expection. So we can expect to lose about $1.40 on every roll
or $140 per 2 hour session, times 3 sessions a week times 52 and you a tidy
sum of about $21,800 per year in expected losses.
If a DI did nothing other than break even, that is a world of difference.
I have been playing this game for over 40 years and have seen many many
high rollers come and go, and can still hear many of them saying that dice controll
stuff does not work, i have all these large wins... where are yours.
my reply is always the same, i am still playing,..... where have you been
dicesetter
The really big misconception here and i guess on every forum about craps is that a good DI
is a fraud or kidding himself unless he can go to the table and make big money.
The statement which is most funny is the " well how much are you ahead over your
craps playing days" that one is not much better than are you still beating your wife.
What these type questions indicate is that most people ( me included) really dont
understand what their exposure to loss is all about, and what aDI can do or cant
do.
Lets say you play craps 6 hours a week and there are about 100 rolls in each of the
3 -2 hour sessions. ( that can vary) Lets say you have a $5 line bet with 5 times odds
and like many players a $18 6 & 8. Now the book says you have only a 1.41-1.52%
loss expection. (hope no one beleives that) but for the sake of kicks and giggles we
use only a 2% loss expection. So we can expect to lose about $1.40 on every roll
or $140 per 2 hour session, times 3 sessions a week times 52 and you a tidy
sum of about $21,800 per year in expected losses.
If a DI did nothing other than break even, that is a world of difference.
I have been playing this game for over 40 years and have seen many many
high rollers come and go, and can still hear many of them saying that dice controll
stuff does not work, i have all these large wins... where are yours.
my reply is always the same, i am still playing,..... where have you been
dicesetter
December 18th, 2013 at 10:46:01 AM
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I ain't never heard Stick calling out "physically agile appearing shooter about to come out" or "New shooter coming out looks like a natural born athlete to me".
Confidence levels... watch that youtube video about telekinetic coffee houses in NYC? How confident were the actors? How confident were the customers?
Results are all that matters and in the short run it can be anything. In the long run the house will keep rotating in new stick men and if necessary will re-fill the bank, but they ain't never gonna close the table. The most they will do is bring in five new dice... that is known as a high confidence level.
Confidence levels... watch that youtube video about telekinetic coffee houses in NYC? How confident were the actors? How confident were the customers?
Results are all that matters and in the short run it can be anything. In the long run the house will keep rotating in new stick men and if necessary will re-fill the bank, but they ain't never gonna close the table. The most they will do is bring in five new dice... that is known as a high confidence level.
December 18th, 2013 at 10:59:30 AM
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Quote:dicesetter
The really big misconception here and i guess on every forum about craps is that a good DI
is a fraud or kidding himself unless he can go to the table and make big money.
The statement which is most funny is the " well how much are you ahead over your
craps playing days" that one is not much better than are you still beating your wife.
This is because of all the fiction that is written about how much a DI wins, You don't walk into a casino with a $2000 buy-in and walk out with a very cool haft Million dollars. These fiction writers are so good at what they do that they have just about everybody believing them, hell the casinos even believe them, let alone the guys that have visions of becoming a big time winner in their heads.
Good old common sense should tell everybody that it's BS, but some players are looking for that magic bullet to kill the casinos, so it's an easy sell, to anybody looking to become a DI.
It still boils down to a basic fact that DI's make their money by smart betting, they don't win every time they go into a casino. I will tell everybody that I don't win every time I hit a casino, hell I have to tell it to my wife when I get home!
....
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
...
February 22nd, 2014 at 11:36:29 AM
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Quote: boymimbo2700 rolls with 405 or fewer 7s gives you 99% confidence.
1360 rolls with 204 or fewer 7s gives you 94.8% confidence.
1374 rolls, 207 sevens. Didn't quite make 15%.
February 22nd, 2014 at 12:38:18 PM
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Tupp was the only dice guy to put his money where his mouth was.
And I do mean the only one. That told me all I needed to know about DI's.
And I do mean the only one. That told me all I needed to know about DI's.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
March 1st, 2014 at 10:31:14 AM
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I am sure this has been asked somewhere in this or other threads...and I ask this with real interest
If DI was a real factor in winning, wouldnt casinos just make a rule of "no setting of dice". I mean they already have rules of just use one hand. And no throwing over a certain height.
Casinos ban card counting which is hard to prove and sometimes hard to spot. It would seem DI is easier to spot and therefore easier to ban.
I have heard that people suggest that you buy a craps table and practice at home hundreds of hours. But then I ask if that is done, when you get to a casino with slightly different table heights,length, table cushioning/spring, Pinapple bumps arraingment, even carpet thickness that you stand on compared to home carpet where you practice...all making a possible minuscule change in the throw and after effects of the throw....where a miniscule change can make a huge difference when dealing with dice.
How does one combat the argument that proof that DI doesnt work is that the casinos allow it.(as long as it doesnt hold up the game).
If DI was a real factor in winning, wouldnt casinos just make a rule of "no setting of dice". I mean they already have rules of just use one hand. And no throwing over a certain height.
Casinos ban card counting which is hard to prove and sometimes hard to spot. It would seem DI is easier to spot and therefore easier to ban.
I have heard that people suggest that you buy a craps table and practice at home hundreds of hours. But then I ask if that is done, when you get to a casino with slightly different table heights,length, table cushioning/spring, Pinapple bumps arraingment, even carpet thickness that you stand on compared to home carpet where you practice...all making a possible minuscule change in the throw and after effects of the throw....where a miniscule change can make a huge difference when dealing with dice.
How does one combat the argument that proof that DI doesnt work is that the casinos allow it.(as long as it doesnt hold up the game).
March 1st, 2014 at 2:38:56 PM
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Quote: LarryS
I am sure this has been asked somewhere in this or other threads...and I ask this with real interest
If DI was a real factor in winning, wouldnt casinos just make a rule of "no setting of dice". I mean they already have rules of just use one hand. And no throwing over a certain height.
Casinos ban card counting which is hard to prove and sometimes hard to spot. It would seem DI is easier to spot and therefore easier to ban.
I have heard that people suggest that you buy a craps table and practice at home hundreds of hours. But then I ask if that is done, when you get to a casino with slightly different table heights,length, table cushioning/spring, Pinapple bumps arraingment, even carpet thickness that you stand on compared to home carpet where you practice...all making a possible minuscule change in the throw and after effects of the throw....where a miniscule change can make a huge difference when dealing with dice.
These are some very good questions, there have been casinos that say you cannot set the dice, and they found out that their business fell off drastically, and did away with the dice setting ban! Some casinos even go as far as setting the dice for the players. You want a hardway set, they bring the dice back to you with what ever numbers you want on top!
DI's do get banned from casinos, I've been banned from a few of them, and the way I look at it, is it happened because of all the fiction that is written about DI's winning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off the casinos. This just doesn't happen, if you're a DI, you damn sure don't try to kill the casinos you are playing in.
When you wrote that it's very easy to spot a DI, hit upon a problem that real DI's have. Just about everybody now sets the dice, because they had seen other players winning that were setting the dice! I like to call everybody that sets the dice a so-called DI.
There are very few DI's in this country, they can't win every time they go to the tables, it just doesn't happen unless you're reading fiction.
Quote: LarryS
I have heard that people suggest that you buy a craps table and practice at home hundreds of hours. But then I ask if that is done, when you get to a casino with slightly different table heights,length, table cushioning/spring, Pinapple bumps arraingment, even carpet thickness that you stand on compared to home carpet where you practice...all making a possible minuscule change in the throw and after effects of the throw....where a miniscule change can make a huge difference when dealing with dice.
This is very true, and even if they have a real table at home they still do not get the table time they need in a real casino. All tables are different so are the dice, table conditions change every day while most will never notice the change.
There are too many wives that will let their husband have a full-size craps table in their home. I've had many opportunities to buy one but guess what, my wife says no way. There are so many variables that DI's have to contend with when they are playing on a real table that most can't deal with. There's a very high failure rate of anybody that takes a class, because of the time commitment that someone needs to become a DI. Another factor that goes into the mix is most players that take a class can never get the real casino table time they need to improve upon what they are doing.
...
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
...
March 1st, 2014 at 6:40:34 PM
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With all the money "real" DI's should be making, they should be able to buy a house just for the craps table. Unfortunately, Wives see the bank account and know this is just another expensive hobby.Quote: superrick
There are too many wives that will let their husband have a full-size craps table in their home. I've had many opportunities to buy one but guess what, my wife says no way.
...
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 1st, 2014 at 8:53:49 PM
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Quote: LarryS
How does one combat the argument that proof that DI doesnt work is that the casinos allow it.(as long as it doesnt hold up the game).
As long as casinos make more money from the people who like to think that they can influence the dice than the they lose to people who can actually control the dice then it's in their interest to encourage it. People play blackjack because they think they can beat it, and many of the frequent players talk about how, even though they don't keep a formal count, have a "feeling" about aces coming, etc. Craps is harder than card counting, IMO, but more rewarding because the casinos tolerate it more. I think the standard line with most casinos is that if you're setting the dice then you had better hit the wall with BOTH dice, EVERY time.
Casinos are really pretty tolerant of counting, and even so probably spend more time and effort on counter-measures than it's worth. But as with any gambling venture, an advantage players best cover is that they will lose a lot sometimes and win a lot other times, so it takes a lot of observation to determine if the player has any kind of edge.
March 1st, 2014 at 8:59:57 PM
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Here is the difference. I can prove that card counting works. I can do it mathematically, or, if you'd prefer, you can deal me a statistically significant number of shoes and I will be ahead when it's all over. The only thing that limits my earning potential from blackjack card counting is heat from the casino -- they simply won't let me bet whatever I want, whenever I want.
None of this is true for craps. No one has ever shown statistically significant results. Considering what the casinos tolerate in craps, anyone with even a slight edge could make A LOT of money, even starting with a modest bankroll. On WoO, there are simulations that show how easy it would be to parlay just a few hundred dollars into millions if you could repeatedly make bets where your edge is 1%.
Until someone shows that it can be done, this is all wishful thinking.
None of this is true for craps. No one has ever shown statistically significant results. Considering what the casinos tolerate in craps, anyone with even a slight edge could make A LOT of money, even starting with a modest bankroll. On WoO, there are simulations that show how easy it would be to parlay just a few hundred dollars into millions if you could repeatedly make bets where your edge is 1%.
Until someone shows that it can be done, this is all wishful thinking.
March 1st, 2014 at 9:18:17 PM
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Supernick
Thanks for the reply. I am a skeptic about the success of DI....but I can always learn something new that shows me otherwise.
Craps used to be my game in the 80s and 90s in AC..and I occasionally play these days....so I am not just asking as a mental exercise.
so my follow up is....how much "table time" is needed in a casino. And how expensive is it to complete the needed table time.
And if you finally perfect DI at a table in a particular casino after months or years of "table time"....and they change out the table, or refelt the table with a noticible change in the "bounce" or ban you so you have to go somewhere else... what then.
I am thinking that even the slightest change in distance, trajectory, bounce,speed of the dice can greatly effect outcomes. Even if the table is the same and the stickman stands close to you forcing you to move a few inches over would be enough to have a negative effect.
Do casinos have the ability to purchase sets of dice that are of slightly different weights? Very slight changes in die weights would cause changes in results as well.
Even a change in the thickness of carpeting can throw the shooter off a bit...and "a bit" is all that is needed.
It would seem to me that the precision that is needed for the expected results, the shooter would have to be familiar with every inch of the table, the shooting surface, the dice, the distance to the wall, the height of the table, the die's response to hitting the back wall.....and it seems pretty easy for the casinos to change one or more of those factors regularly, thereby rendoring the past experience of the DI....useless.
Thanks for the reply. I am a skeptic about the success of DI....but I can always learn something new that shows me otherwise.
Craps used to be my game in the 80s and 90s in AC..and I occasionally play these days....so I am not just asking as a mental exercise.
so my follow up is....how much "table time" is needed in a casino. And how expensive is it to complete the needed table time.
And if you finally perfect DI at a table in a particular casino after months or years of "table time"....and they change out the table, or refelt the table with a noticible change in the "bounce" or ban you so you have to go somewhere else... what then.
I am thinking that even the slightest change in distance, trajectory, bounce,speed of the dice can greatly effect outcomes. Even if the table is the same and the stickman stands close to you forcing you to move a few inches over would be enough to have a negative effect.
Do casinos have the ability to purchase sets of dice that are of slightly different weights? Very slight changes in die weights would cause changes in results as well.
Even a change in the thickness of carpeting can throw the shooter off a bit...and "a bit" is all that is needed.
It would seem to me that the precision that is needed for the expected results, the shooter would have to be familiar with every inch of the table, the shooting surface, the dice, the distance to the wall, the height of the table, the die's response to hitting the back wall.....and it seems pretty easy for the casinos to change one or more of those factors regularly, thereby rendoring the past experience of the DI....useless.
March 1st, 2014 at 9:46:32 PM
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There is a guy that does seminars that has his own website and posts on the patrick site as well. I wont mention his name but from how he explains it...after you complete his class that takes place at a craps table (some times takes place at local dealer schools ).....the entire class goes out to put their new found knowldge to the test at a casino where they play together.
Now obviusly the casinos that he goes to are aware of him being an "expert" and the people with him being students. Doesnt scare them...they allow the game to take place. They allow te "expert" to shoot the dice and possibly make loads of money for the students. All it takes is one good shooter at a table and everyone wins. Unlike any other game...your expertise can make money for others.
If I were a student the first thing that would worry me is...why doesnt the casino take us seriously. I just learned this powerful knowledge...and here the casino is smiling and saying ..take your best shot. The casino knowing up front that my instructor is an expert DI......doesnt blink an eye and even gives us our own table.
mmmmmm maybe I need some practice. Did my instructor tell me that I will need hundreds or thousands of hours of practice? I dont remember that part.
well at least when my instructor shoots I will be able to recoupe the cost of this seminar and then some.....oops...I guess it was just a bad day...we all have them.
Now obviusly the casinos that he goes to are aware of him being an "expert" and the people with him being students. Doesnt scare them...they allow the game to take place. They allow te "expert" to shoot the dice and possibly make loads of money for the students. All it takes is one good shooter at a table and everyone wins. Unlike any other game...your expertise can make money for others.
If I were a student the first thing that would worry me is...why doesnt the casino take us seriously. I just learned this powerful knowledge...and here the casino is smiling and saying ..take your best shot. The casino knowing up front that my instructor is an expert DI......doesnt blink an eye and even gives us our own table.
mmmmmm maybe I need some practice. Did my instructor tell me that I will need hundreds or thousands of hours of practice? I dont remember that part.
well at least when my instructor shoots I will be able to recoupe the cost of this seminar and then some.....oops...I guess it was just a bad day...we all have them.
March 1st, 2014 at 9:52:31 PM
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Standard DI byline. When winning it's because I am a DI. After a losing session " I would have lost more were I not a DI " .
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
March 2nd, 2014 at 12:00:53 AM
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I never heard them say that I always heard Its because they were off that day.Quote: BuzzardAfter a losing session " I would have lost more were I not a DI " .
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 2nd, 2014 at 1:01:33 PM
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Quote: BuzzardTupp was the only dice guy to put his money where his mouth was.
And I do mean the only one. That told me all I needed to know about DI's.
Don't forget Nickolay. He was very nice and paid up after he failed the challenge.
March 2nd, 2014 at 2:49:28 PM
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Ooops getting old First two things to go are the memory and uh uh I forget the second thing.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
March 2nd, 2014 at 6:28:21 PM
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Quote: LarryS
so my follow up is....how much "table time" is needed in a casino. And how expensive is it to complete the needed table time.
And if you finally perfect DI at a table in a particular casino after months or years of "table time"....and they change out the table, or refelt the table with a noticible change in the "bounce" or ban you so you have to go somewhere else... what then.
I am thinking that even the slightest change in distance, trajectory, bounce,speed of the dice can greatly effect outcomes. Even if the table is the same and the stickman stands close to you forcing you to move a few inches over would be enough to have a negative effect.
Do casinos have the ability to purchase sets of dice that are of slightly different weights? Very slight changes in die weights would cause changes in results as well.
Even a change in the thickness of carpeting can throw the shooter off a bit...and "a bit" is all that is needed.
It would seem to me that the precision that is needed for the expected results, the shooter would have to be familiar with every inch of the table, the shooting surface, the dice, the distance to the wall, the height of the table, the die's response to hitting the back wall.....and it seems pretty easy for the casinos to change one or more of those factors regularly, thereby rendoring the past experience of the DI....useless.
The most surprising thing to me after I recorded 1500 rolls in the casino (with a voice recorder) was that my results didn't vary from casino to casino as much as I expected. My difference from random is small, 15% sevens instead of 16.7% sevens, but I have a collection of rolls from my favorite casinos, and then a few hundred more from various excursions where I took the time to log the rolls. The mixed bag of other rolls came up to be about the same percentage (for a while, they were actually better than my set of rolls from the favored tables). I think that ultimately it's about whether you can get enough time at the table with the dice to settle in and get a feel for it.
As far as the cost of practice in the casino, the vig on a $5 passline bet isn't really that bad. What kills you is that if you don't have access to an empty table (such as when they first open the dice pit, or early in the morning) and are wasting a lot of time and money on random rollers, or making higher vig bets. That was how I learned, was practicing in the casino when I could have the table mostly to myself. Didn't take a class.
As far as demonstrating dice control for science, I think I'll pass on that glory and I hope all other dice controllers will too :-)
March 2nd, 2014 at 7:19:56 PM
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Quote: LarryS
Do casinos have the ability to purchase sets of dice that are of slightly different weights? Very slight changes in die weights would cause changes in results as well.
I did see Wong mention something about some casinos switching to slightly smaller dice. This does sound like a Bad Thing, but I haven't run into it personally.
March 2nd, 2014 at 8:28:20 PM
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BobR
you seem to be able to explain your point although I am skeptical. And this is why
If I were expert at DI, and it could be learned by others with reasonable practice................WHY would I kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Why would I scream from the rooftops that it works. Why would I have website and give seminars to make more people go out and have great results? The more people that are successful at it...the more chance the casinos will actively put an end to it.
So I say to myself that it must be greatly improbably that the books and classes will do any good.And the expert knows it Keeping it safe for the "expert" seminar giver. The expert can get money from seminars and get money from DI (IF IT WORKS)..... And if DI doesnt work..then at least he gets money from books and seminars. If DI books and seminars did indeed work...after years of spreading the word...there would be too many success stories for the casinos to tolerate.
Meanwhile the casinos get a bunch of extra enthusiastic craps players
Its a yes yes deal for the expert and for the casinos
I wouldnt be surprised if some "experts" take money for their seminars from gamblers....and take money from casinos ..sendingtheir students to the casino to try out their new knowledge...the casinos knowing full well that it will be very profitable to take the action of people with little experience. with DI.
you seem to be able to explain your point although I am skeptical. And this is why
If I were expert at DI, and it could be learned by others with reasonable practice................WHY would I kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Why would I scream from the rooftops that it works. Why would I have website and give seminars to make more people go out and have great results? The more people that are successful at it...the more chance the casinos will actively put an end to it.
So I say to myself that it must be greatly improbably that the books and classes will do any good.And the expert knows it Keeping it safe for the "expert" seminar giver. The expert can get money from seminars and get money from DI (IF IT WORKS)..... And if DI doesnt work..then at least he gets money from books and seminars. If DI books and seminars did indeed work...after years of spreading the word...there would be too many success stories for the casinos to tolerate.
Meanwhile the casinos get a bunch of extra enthusiastic craps players
Its a yes yes deal for the expert and for the casinos
I wouldnt be surprised if some "experts" take money for their seminars from gamblers....and take money from casinos ..sendingtheir students to the casino to try out their new knowledge...the casinos knowing full well that it will be very profitable to take the action of people with little experience. with DI.
March 3rd, 2014 at 7:46:22 PM
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I agree that the whole ecosystem of teachers and system sellers and students seems to be an odd place. Most teachers seem to have a lot to say about betting systems and a seven being "due", etc. All I can say is that it all seems like a positive influence on the game in general, since it means I'm allowed to play and have a shot at winning for myself :-)
It's my understanding that Stanford Wong, after validating the possibility of winning, decided it was too much work and got bored with the pursuit. Personally, I'm enjoying the ability to practice without losing money (overall) and picking up a few comps.
It's my understanding that Stanford Wong, after validating the possibility of winning, decided it was too much work and got bored with the pursuit. Personally, I'm enjoying the ability to practice without losing money (overall) and picking up a few comps.
March 4th, 2014 at 2:24:12 AM
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You think he was going to say, I WAS WRONG, sorry I sold you guys books and touted DI, a refund is in order to the 99.9999% of you who lost money and rushed out to take $1500 Di classes?Quote: BobR
It's my understanding that Stanford Wong, after validating the possibility of winning, decided it was too much work and got bored with the pursuit.
Read between the lines on this one.
I do like the fact you are enjoying this and getting some comps hopefully some free bets/match plays and other junk. Nothing is wrong with that as long as you know where you stand and don't turn into a Craps Genius. This is where the problem begins and and your sanity will end, you will turn retarded and join the likes of Varmenti and TourneyQueen
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 4th, 2014 at 3:49:30 AM
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The real answer is practice. Just ask Allen Iverson!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
March 4th, 2014 at 5:32:54 AM
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You can practice till the cows come home and will have no better results then the cowsQuote: DeMangoThe real answer is practice. Just ask Allen Iverson!
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 4th, 2014 at 5:44:18 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfYou can practice till the cows come home and will have no better results then the cows
Now that there was funny, I don't care what side of this argument you take. (And I take the opposite side simply because I saw it done. One guy. But that's enough to say it can be done.)
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
March 4th, 2014 at 6:10:03 AM
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Quote: beachbumbabsNow that there was funny, I don't care what side of this argument you take. (And I take the opposite side simply because I saw it done. One guy. But that's enough to say it can be done.)
I won't say it can't be done but I am thinking that there is a lot more money in JUST DOING IT than in selling a few books or seminars. If I were able to do it, my preference would be to be quiet about it and go from casino to casino winning money enough at a time to make a great living but not too much to draw attention. There just isn't that much money in niche books (how many people read about craps?) or in seminars (even 10 people at $2,500 a pop is only $25K...a day or two of work for an influencer).
I guess you could say that the seminars and books are guaranteed money while the playing daily is not, but the other point is why let people know what you are doing?
There is an old saying...it may not be totally true but it is applicable in many cases...those who can, do...those who can't, teach...
Do I think someone can influence the dice? Maybe. Do I think they can teach others to do so consistently? Doubtful.
