Ahigh Show Tuesday at 7:30pm Pacific Time

Is there more to your response?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Is there more to your response?

I often post and then edit. And yes. However, your question is answered in the FAQ. The additional information wasn't really necessary.

I did go back and look for more evidence of axis theory being real in my shots, and while there were some unlikely distributions in there, it didn't seem to be looking like anything to do with axis faces.

I personally, as I stated before, have zero evidence to support the axis theories. I'm not saying it's bullshit, I'm just saying if I have any shot, it's absolutely not an axis shot.

I would LOVE for someone to demonstrate a significant p-value for the face outcomes of their shot to demonstrate fewer axis faces with a sufficiently small p-value.

Yet, I sincerely doubt anyone is going to step forward on this.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I always thought that the entire premise of dice influencing and dice control was keeping dice on axis? Now it isn't?

Dear me, you haven't been paying attention, Alan? People have stated several times now that DI doesn't -have- to be about on axis throws. That's just the 90% most common explanation of -how- to do it.

Hey, I like live craps video, for my entertainment purposes this was better than
many, many of the choices I pay for on satellite tv. I've tried to get casino's to install
web cam's so I can check in before heading to the tables. Seems like it ain't gonna happen.

I kinda got a little excited by so many 4's and 5's and hard ten's.
I don't care for the controversy over di or not to di. A good roll is just fun
to watch. I think I could have made a little money the way I bet on "avenger's" roll.

Everybody has an opinion so's here's part of mine.
[credit first to ahigh for doin all the work]
The roll from last night or during Nickolay's attempt, I'd like to have seen the
result's if a c.o. 7 wasn't a penalty, the same for the avenger.

The pressure was certainly on for Nickolay to perform and I think the pressure was
a differant kind than at the casino's. We're all used to when we 7 they take the dice away, and
if anyone else is at the table, a little break to regroup, rethink, breathe. Then they dump the
dice boat, co, etc.

Ahigh question? When your software suggested a certain set, does that originate from x amount of
throws all coming from the same set? Like HW or v or inline 6?

Quote: petroglyph

Hey, I like live craps video, for my entertainment purposes this was better than
many, many of the choices I pay for on satellite tv. I've tried to get casino's to install
web cam's so I can check in before heading to the tables. Seems like it ain't gonna happen.

I kinda got a little excited by so many 4's and 5's and hard ten's.
I don't care for the controversy over di or not to di. A good roll is just fun
to watch. I think I could have made a little money the way I bet on "avenger's" roll.

Everybody has an opinion so's here's part of mine.
[credit first to ahigh for doin all the work]
The roll from last night or during Nickolay's attempt, I'd like to have seen the
result's if a c.o. 7 wasn't a penalty, the same for the avenger.

The pressure was certainly on for Nickolay to perform and I think the pressure was
a differant kind than at the casino's. We're all used to when we 7 they take the dice away, and
if anyone else is at the table, a little break to regroup, rethink, breathe. Then they dump the
dice boat, co, etc.

Ahigh question? When your software suggested a certain set, does that originate from x amount of
throws all coming from the same set? Like HW or v or inline 6?

All the avenger's throws were the same set, fortunately. My software needs to know the set for every roll in order to work.

There is a command to set the set in the middle of the throw as well as a command to set the default set for the comeout versus non-comeout.

There is another mode where the computer will recommend a set for you to use as you go along and will instruct you to use the recommended set and assumes you use the recommended set on each throw. This has the advantage of being allowed to use a set that works for a strategy without having to tell the computer what set you are using, but the disadvantage of being forced to use a set the computer tells you to use each time. IE: less data entry, but less flexibility in how you set the dice. This mode only works with dual colored dice.

The set recommendations, in order to work perfectly, you need to use two different colored dice and you have to record the left die first and then the right die. This requires that you set the same colored die on the same side and know which number to key in (order is important when entering rolls).

This is the only way that non-hardway sets can be properly accounted for.

There is another graph with 36 different outcomes (order important IE 6-5 and 5-6 are different outcomes) instead of 21 (hop) outcomes that is generated when the software is being operated in the mode where left and right dice are being recorded in an order dependent way.

I have not used the software much in this way yet, however. But that is when things become most powerful.

The analysis also generates sets to use for every possible target and every combination of two simultaneous targets.

The complexity explodes very quickly, but it's all in there. I'm not going into all the details of everything that I'm doing.

But I will tell you that the one time I was banned at Gold Coast, I was using the output of my software for what set to use and I was rolling a very long time (with almost no bets since I was testing it) and they banned me at the same time I rolled the final seven (on a shorty).

My list of sets to use for various combinations of bets that I might have is about 200 long(!!!)

There will be no show on Tuesday, March 26th, as I will be at the Game Developer's Conference all week in San Francisco. I do plan on doing the next show on April 2nd.

Unfortunately, on axis control is what's needed.

Over the years, dice control wannabes have come up with "exceptions to the rule" in order to justify their attempts and their claims. In other words, they're making up excuses.

Now, if you want to say that Axis control is not a pre-requisite for dice influencing and dice control then you might as well say wishing and hoping is all you need for influencing the dice. And that's pretty much what has happened.

If people would stop for a minute and realize how strict the requirements are for dice influencing and dice control, then a lot of people would not be swept up into the hype and wouldn't be wasting so much money on schools, lectures, courses, etc.

think about it guys, dice control is very precise, and that is why it can't be taught and that is why you can't "pay for it." It is a fine skill. If it weren't everybody would be doing it.

If you were allowed to let each die go off axis by one face or two faces everybody would have "dice control."

If you think axis control is not needed you're living in a dream world. Keep wasting your money.

Quote: petroglyph

I've tried to get casino's to install web cam's so I can check in before heading to the tables.

Sounds like traffic cams and weather cams. Just no so dependable.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Unfortunately, on axis control is what's needed.

Yet, there is no known axis control that you've seen?

Quote:

If you think axis control is not needed you're living in a dream world. Keep wasting your money.

No, I think that Dice Influence is a concept where people think they can make the dice behave in a different probability distribution to that expected, and that Axis-Control is one (and the most popular) technique attempted and sold for doing the former. It doesn't follow it is the only method, and it doesn't follow it actually works, either.

I do not accept that Dice Influence = Axis Control.

Axis Control implies Dice Influence.

Dice Influence does not, however, imply Axis Control.

Quote: thecesspit

Yet, there is no known axis control that you've seen?

Have I seen dice stay on axis? Of course I have. Would I call it control? Well, I would call it control if it was done with some regularity and reliability. But dice can be thrown on axis just by luck. I have seen so-called "random shooters" keep their dice on axis as much as I have seen so-called "controlled shooters" keep their dice on axis.

it seems to me that a lot of you "DI advocates" will call any "good shot" a controlled shot, when any "good shot" might just be a random shot with a favorable outcome.

What you guys need to do is come up with a definition of what is a controlled shot. The definition I have includes dice remaining on axis as one factor. And there are others such as an on axis bounce and soft roll to the back wall. But it seems the advocates are calling anything but a 7-out a controlled shot. Sorry... not buying it.

for most of the so-called dice influencers and the dice controllers, the influence and the control ends as soon as the dice leave their fingers.

Quote: AlanMendelson

it seems to me that a lot of you "DI advocates" will call any "good shot" a controlled shot, when any "good shot" might just be a random shot with a favorable outcome.

What's this 'you DI advocate'. I am not one, and have never played one on a TV show.

Quote:

What you guys need to do is come up with a definition of what is a controlled shot. The definition I have includes dice remaining on axis as one factor. And there are others such as an on axis bounce and soft roll to the back wall. But it seems the advocates are calling anything but a 7-out a controlled shot. Sorry... not buying it.

I've stated how you can test for control. Math Extremist has stated it in a far better way, but along the same lines. I've even stated you can't decide post the throw if its controlled or not. No single throw will tell you sweet FA about 'control' or 'influence' (*). 200 hardly gets you there either.

(*) Okay this is not exactly true. If you can tell me you throw a box cars, after bouncing twice on the table, once on the chip, once on the cocktail waitresses, rack, knock of the box man's toupe and perfectly aligned in the Don't Come Bar Twelve, then yeah, I'd probably say that one throw showed control.

I have a very specific definition of a "controlled" or "influenced" throw:

Dice are set, softly thrown at a 45-degree angle, hitting the end of the come box, staying together they lightly bounce and roll lightly striking the back wall while remaining on axis.

I'm probably more strict in my definition than the rest of you, but that's what the goal of a controlled throw is.

Anything else just doesn't cut it for me.

I think if you go back 15 years or longer that my definition is the only definition of a controlled throw, or influenced throw. Over the years, the inability of shooters to attain that has led to variations and simplifications.

I'm not going to say that the variations don't work, because we all know and have seen totally random throws that "work." But if you are going to talk about the art of the throw, don't substitute a fingerpainting for a fine oil on canvas masterpiece.

There is no written definition or theory of a controlled throw that allows for dice to flip flop all over the place. Maybe if you run a huckster school you want people to think that as they fork over their $1,995 for the weekend and their $295 for the practice rig.

And the idea of testing makes no sense. A random shooter can pass the test, because random shooters have held the dice for an hour or longer... probably several times a day in Vegas casinos. The test is in the form of the throw. Think of it as a high dive. All divers end up in the water-- the diver with the best form wins the diving contest.

The goal of a controlled throw is to change the probabilty distribution on the dice. It's not to make a pretty throw that make Alan Mendelson happy. Your definition may be strict, but it's also misses the entire point of a controlled throw. It misses the essential part of the purpose of trying to be a DI : changing the odds of the game. And it does not matter how the person throws if they can change those odds.

You can not tell if this has been successful over the course of one hold of the dice. Of course random shooters can hold the dice for a length of time. As I stated, 200 rolls is not enough. 1,000 is probably not enough. Looking at one perfectly pretty throw doesn't tell you if the shooter has a influence. Note, I don't disagree that the -best way- maybe your idea of a controlled throw, but the means is not the ends.

If the idea of testing doesn't make any sense, well, there is nothing further to say. I've stated repeatedly as well that testing is not easy, and would take time.

If folks want to make untestable claims, I'll file them under the same heading as Sasquatch and Miracle Water.

Quote: thecesspit

The goal of a controlled throw is to change the probabilty distribution on the dice. It's not to make a pretty throw that make Alan Mendelson happy. Your definition may be strict, but it's also misses the entire point of a controlled throw. It misses the essential part of the purpose of trying to be a DI : changing the odds of the game. And it does not matter how the person throws if they can change those odds.

You can not tell if this has been successful over the course of one hold of the dice. Of course random shooters can hold the dice for a length of time. As I stated, 200 rolls is not enough. 1,000 is probably not enough. Looking at one perfectly pretty throw doesn't tell you if the shooter has a influence. Note, I don't disagree that the -best way- maybe your idea of a controlled throw, but the means is not the ends.

If the idea of testing doesn't make any sense, well, there is nothing further to say. I've stated repeatedly as well that testing is not easy, and would take time.

If folks want to make untestable claims, I'll file them under the same heading as Sasquatch and Miracle Water.

Thanks for some sanity. I only have 3000 recorded rolls of my own since August! But even then that's 30 x 100 rolls = 30 hours of shooting, and all of it is generally on film!

I may go into hyper over drive doing more throws and recording them and live broadcasting them. Even if nobody watches, I may do 200 throws every day until I have more data. I still have more stuff to do on the software, but given that nobody with an amazing shot is stepping up to the plate, it may just be me myself and I continuing as we go on.

The Alan Mendelsons and anyone else who is sort of not "getting it" are just going to have be left in the dark at some point. I will boldly go on by myself and broadcast to zero viewers just to have a digital record of what I'm doing.

But recording rolls in the casino is not going to work for me. I tried that, and it just doesn't work. If nothing else, I've found that they just take the dice away from me, but they don't like me shooting with that whole image and I don't even like that nerd image when I am throwing the dice. And certainly not with black chips in play.

I am doing more and more black chip betting. So I may also do some reports at some point, which is something that I have not done. I am buying gold with my wins, so I will just start taking photos of my gold bars to chart my progress, and that's the only thing I'm going to show instead of data from the casino. Everything else will be recorded and on film.

That's sort of what I'm thinking.

I'm going to be in San Francisco for a week next week at the Game Developer's conference, so I'm doing a few more days of gambling and then a week with no gambling.

I gamble a lot so going a week without gambling is going to be unusual for me.

Anyway, enough rambling, but there's some stream of consciousness for ya.

Quote:

Alan

it seems to me that a lot of you "DI advocates" will call any "good shot" a controlled shot, when any "good shot" might just be a random shot with a favorable outcome.

What you guys need to do is come up with a definition of what is a controlled shot. The definition I have includes dice remaining on axis as one factor. And there are others such as an on axis bounce and soft roll to the back wall. But it seems the advocates are calling anything but a 7-out a controlled shot. Sorry... not buying it.

So Alan I've got one quick question for you, how many times do you get to come over to Vegas, and do you always play in the same casino? I know a DI that plays at one of the casinos I know you go to, and I would bet money that when you seen him shooting you would say he is just getting lucky, because the shots he uses do not fit into what you have been led to believe is a controlled shot!

To protect what they are selling some of these dice schools will tell everybody that what someone else is doing will not work and the shooter is just getting lucky. Lets see so far in your life you have only seen two shooters that you would even think might be able to some what control the dice or what ever you want to call it. You are just like my old buddy that got me into playing craps, his claim to fame was that he had been playing craps for forty five years; but it was to bad that in the forty five years that he had been playing craps he didn't learn anything!

If he didn't get lucky he was never going to win and most of the time he lost, every time we came to Vegas or AC he would lose and I would win. He wouldn't change anything that he was doing, and only bet on the 6's and 8's because the books said they were they only box numbers you should bet on, at one time I can remember him finally changing what he was doing and started laying the 4's and 10's again because he read that they were good bet.

He would wait until a shooter made a 4 or 10 they lay that point, because the books said he now had a good bet, nobody was going to roll a 4 or 10 right back, “Wrong!” He refused to back down even when I was throwing those points. It wasn't until his first brain operation for a brain tumor, that we realized what his problem was. Here you had my best buddy, that couldn't get past what he read in a book, to him everybody just got lucky and that was all there was to it. I've always set the dice even before I knew there was shooters that they started calling DI's because someone that had something to sell coined the words “Dice Influencer.”

Dice do not stay on axis, its very plain to see in any of Ahigh's Slo-mo videos and still you say that is one of the criterias for dice control.
You are only looking for certain things that you think is about dice control and you are wrong!

Quote:

thecesspit
The goal of a controlled throw is to change the probabilty distribution on the dice. It's not to make a pretty throw that make Alan Mendelson happy. Your definition may be strict, but it's also misses the entire point of a controlled throw. It misses the essential part of the purpose of trying to be a DI : changing the odds of the game. And it does not matter how the person throws if they can change those odds.

Thecesspit said it right, if the two guys that Ahigh had on his show beat the challenge and beat it big time, you would still be saying that they were not DI's, because you didn't think their shots were pretty, and that goes for Ahigh shooting too! It's all about the outcome and not how pretty the shot looks.

You know, and I will say, doing all this out in the open has the very real issue that even if I am successful, I may get stopped in my tracks from being too well known before making any money.

I do not have lifetime wins at this point. But at my current bet levels, one day's worth of wins will change all of that. If I am lucky enough to enjoy wins for a while, whether it is a lucky streak or not, if casinos start turning me away for any reason, I absolutely don't want a shot that looks like an advantage shot. It's just that simple. IE: not a goal at all to look like anything at all but a random roll.

I've never said "yeah I need to work on how my shots LOOK too random."

That is why I have a computer to record the data. It's the data that matters, not what the shot looks like.

I do want to, at some point, learn more about how the dice bounce. But right now, I already know the parameters I'm trying to achieve with my landing and bounce characteristics just from hours of play every day. And that's not from my lab, that's from the casinos that I play every day.

But let me restate it again, I will change modes soon. This whole SOOPOO challenge thing is in the rear view mirror. Given that nobody is stepping up with the "let me show you a real shot that chi-squared can identify as non random in 100 throws" .. it will just take more throws from me.

If I stay at my seven-to-rolls ratio for another 10,000 throws, that may be enough. I'm already at 0.05 on my chi-squared to seven-to-rolls ratio right now.

There's a realistic chance that I'm just lucky to to roll so few sevens in 3000 throws. There's also a chance that if I had been in a better mood, many of those sevens wouldn't have even happened.

So it will take time, but I will continue to record!

Quote: thecesspit

The goal of a controlled throw is to change the probabilty distribution on the dice. It's not to make a pretty throw that make Alan Mendelson happy. Your definition may be strict, but it's also misses the entire point of a controlled throw. It misses the essential part of the purpose of trying to be a DI : changing the odds of the game. And it does not matter how the person throws if they can change those odds.

I agree with you. The goal is changing the odds. But how do you differentiate between a "controlled throw" and a random shot that just got lucky if not for looking at the form and style of the shot?

Can you honestly say that a shot that flips and flops and hits different spots on the table is controlled, or is it a random shot that gets lucky?

If someone can repeat the "flip flop shot" several times, I will accept it as a controlled shot.

In other words, if the flip and flop comes by design (and that's what control is -- something by design) then I will accept your definition.

So be honest, are the flip flops designed to go that way??

Edited to add: Superrick how do you define a controlled shot? If you think a controlled shot is any shot that doesnt produce a 7-out then any random shot that doesnt produce a 7 is controlled. Is that what you mean? if so, then I guess there are a lot of controlled shooters in this world, and on average everybody has a controlled shot five out of six times.

When I think about "control" I think about what Sharpshooter describes in his book. I consider Sharpshooter's book the guide for what is involved in controlled shooting. Sharpshooter describes the preparation, the execution and the shot and how the shot should perform. That is the definition I follow: it is the form, and the style.

I cannot accept what would otherwise be a random shot to be a "controlled shot" only because it avoided a 7.

We disagree.

Just like Ahigh some of us guys have one or two tables in our homes.
For those of you that know where these table are please respect the owner, because he,.. like a lot of us doesn't want anybody knowing who he is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLzxRsSjI7E&feature=youtu.be


I have a bunch of guys that I know that all have tables in their homes, I keep my eyes open for any that comes up for sale for the guys that want one. Most guys that think of themselves as a DI, do not play enough nor do they have something to practice on that will improve what they are doing. There is also one other problem for most of these guys. They have nobody around them that can tell them what they are doing wrong.

The one thing I would like to point out is that DI's do not take hundreds of thousands of dollars off the tables they play on. If they did that they would have nowhere to play, if you are reading where a guy is writing that he plays all the time in Canada and takes that kind of money off the tables he plays on all I can say is BS.

Just like card counter they will ban you from playing if you are winning too much off any casino!

While most so-called DI's live in a fantasy land reading all the fiction they can, a very few guys that do play craps and do win. The problem is they don't win all the time, and without smart betting they wouldn't be playing any more. These guys have loss limits that they stick to and use their smart betting to grind out wins!

Casinos aren't anybody's ATM's, I've seen them ban random rollers before, just because they got lucky to many times, that were locals, that didn't know when to stop going into the same casino.

I can't understand how some very smart people can be hoodwinked into believing some of the outrages posts that make it to some of the craps boards everyday. Nobody is going to take a half million off a craps table on a $2000 buy-in.

There are some very good shooters that come into Vegas from around the country, these guys do the same thing that some of us locals do here in Vegas, they too have a table at home to practice on, but it surely is no guarantee that these guys are going to win when playing craps. You have to remember that you are always playing a negative game and I don't care what kind of BS that you are reading on the craps boards that will never change.

I often write, that the casinos should thank these fiction writers, that's if they don't already work for the casinos, because they bring in the suckers to lose their money.

Just about everybody now sets the dice when they are shooting, so you never know if the guy that is setting the dice is just getting lucky like any other random roller.
Just remember the best looking shot a DI ever made, just might be a 7 out. Luck still has a lot to do with winning!

Quote:

Alan
Edited to add: Superrick how do you define a controlled shot? If you think a controlled shot is any shot that doesnt produce a 7-out then any random shot that doesnt produce a 7 is controlled. Is that what you mean? if so, then I guess there are a lot of controlled shooters in this world, and on average everybody has a controlled shot five out of six times.

Alan I define a controlled shot, by what I'm seeing after years of shooting with these guys, that you never see when you are playing craps. I'm I going to lay it out in every step of the shot these guys make, “NO!”

Now with that said I know that you would want something along those lines, because you only think there is one type of shot that would ever work on a craps table. I'm not about to out anybody with the shots they use. There has been more BS written about what a DI does, that just doesn't hold water and what you are saying is one of them! You only subscribe to one of these DI schools and what they are teaching, by reading one book and saying that what he described is the perfect controlled shot.
You are just like my buddy that told me he had been playing craps for 45 years, but you still will never have the table time that these DI's have.
Spend some more time on the tables and you might bump into some of the DI's that come into Vegas, that I say are still just getting lucky when everything falls into place for them, because they can't do it every time they pick-up the dice!

They still need the good betting skills and knowing when to walk out of the casinos when things are going good or bad for them!

superrick, I agree with a lot of what you say, including needing luck even if you do have a perfect throw... because there really isnt a "perfect throw."

But I would like to know how you differentiate between a "controlled shot" and a random shot that just "gets lucky." There has to be something that tells you this shot "was controlled"? How do you look at a shot and say "that was a controlled shot"? What parameters or points do you use to define a controlled shot?

By the way, I am sure there are different kinds of shots that "work."

Several years ago I had an incredible run at the Rio using a stacked shot and I executed it extremely well. However I used it only that one time since I was told later (after hitting five points on the fire bet) that technically it was not "legal" because both dice didnt hit the table before hitting the back wall... and that was because of the die on top that hit the die below it and not the table.

Alan

I don't play craps for the fun of it, I can truly say that I only know of one guy that I've been to the tables with that does that. That is Ahigh, he says it all the time. I can't see risking my money for the fun of it, I know what I'm up against every time I walk into a casino and that little 1.47% that all the math guys love to talk about will eat you alive, if you let it.

I also don't go to tables with players that don't think like me. When we got together with Ahigh, he didn't realize just how far we were going to play craps that day, as we were driving along he even made the joke that we were taking him out in the desert to get rid of him. Ahigh didn't want anything to do with Harley or I. He never met the other guy that I had brought along with us. The one guy that he did know was VegasDiceControler. This never would have happened if it wasn't for VDC. I wanted to show Ahigh that I wasn't a bad guy, just because of what I wrote. He didn't like me and wouldn't even take a phone call from me.

That day was set up to show us hitting different casinos that we had never played on their tables and to show what would happen if we were getting on any good rolls. I think that Ahigh came away from the tables with a little bit of a better understanding of what some of us go through playing craps, because of all the fiction that is written about DI's!

Quote:

Alan
But I would like to know how you differentiate between a "controlled shot" and a random shot that just "gets lucky." There has to be something that tells you this shot "was controlled"? How do you look at a shot and say "that was a controlled shot"? What parameters or points do you use to define a controlled shot?

There are many things that we look for when someone else is shooting, and I will even bet on the so-called random rollers that I see all the time in the different casinos. Let me explain that a little more, if see the same guy that is nothing more then a random roller, getting on good rolls every time I see him, I will bet on him and why wouldn't I bet on him. Some shooters are just lucky.

I don't put a lot of money on any shooter, even if they are a DI that I know will have good rolls. Everybody fails when they are shooting. There have been plenty of times that I've told one of my DI buddies to bet on a random roller because I've seen them shooting before, and they came back and said they wouldn't waste any money on a random roller. Well 50 rolls later, I was counting up my chips and they were scratching their heads and kicking themselves in the butt for not betting on them.

What we are looking for is something that you will have to learn for yourself. I'm not about to tell anybody what are the things you should be looking for when you have a shooter that is on a roll, what works for me may not work for you.

The one thing I will tell you is that anybody that has taking one of these classes that the DI schools teach will never be under the radar as they would like you to believe, if they are making points!

All the card counter did themselves in by putting to much information out on the different BJ boards and in the book that they wrote, and now they are paying the price for doing so. So why should we follow suit?

All you guys were making jokes about Harley, but he is the only guy that I know that makes all his money off the tables and I don't blame him for not showing his face. You guys even went so far as saying what did he know that you guys didn't, well he knew how to make a living off the tables and live on the strip for over 5 years without having any other place to stay, on comps! I finally talked him into buying a house here in Vegas, because the longer you stay in a casino the better the casinos have a shot at your money.

The smart way of playing is hit and run and there is no way that you can come up with a optimum time to leave. You can't say to yourself that you are only going to play for 1 hour and that is how long you are going to stay!

What everything equates to is having the table time to make rational decisions on your own, and not depend on what someone else has written, or told you.
There is no magic bullet out there that will make you an instant winner playing craps, I showed you what some of us do to practice our shooting in the video that I posted.

DI's are a strange bunch of guys and girls, we want to help out others without giving away the farm. So we are not going to post everything we know and do. We know what security is doing to try to put a stop to us when we are playing. We also know that they love reading these boards, to find out as much information as they can gather off the boards.

Ahigh has one of the most comprehensive setups that I've ever seen in Vegas for practicing on. We may have more table in one place but we don't have all the camera equipment that he has, I love what he can do with his slow- motion and the software he developed!

Casinos still have nothing to worry about with any shooter, the dice are still random when they hit the table, just watch one of Ahigh Videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8

Now you may say that it isn't a controlled shot, but it doesn't matter, the dice will still bounce around just like in the video, even if you thought it was the best looking shot that you ever saw. Your eyes are not fast enough to see what the dice are really doing. So it's very easy to sell someone on taking a class, for becoming a DI, and also to get casinos to believe that the shooter is doing something besides getting lucky. Some of these suits are more superstitious then the players and are sweating the money!

thanks superrick, very interesting.

Okay, so you guys think differently than I do about controlled shots, and if you're making a living from it and are happy with the results, I am not going to question it.

but I will say this: I've been in the TV business for about 40 years. And I can cherry pick from a recording session and put together a reel of hardways shots too. If you think those were controlled shots on Ahigh's video... I wish you the best.

Alan

Come on now I didn't say that they were controlled shots, and that is why Ahigh might have a problem with me. What I said was if Ahigh was always repeating those same points all the time, nobody on this board would have any problem calling them controlled shots. Also there are different shots that you wouldn't call a controlled shot, only because you read one book and that is what you think is the definition of a controlled shot.

I also think that over time Ahigh might come up with a shot that will work and have a good chance of winning when he is playing craps, he has all the equipment to do so, and he makes some of these guys that came before him, look just plain dumb! He has put together a program that will allow him to do so!

Sorry if I misunderstood.

And yes, if Ahigh can repeat a shot that bounces, and does three double and a half twists to the right with a plunge to the left and three turns counterclockwise before the second bounce then yes he would have a controlled shot. LOL

If Ahigh wants a "shot that works," let him do the stacker shot. It works. It only takes practice. There is no voo-doo involved, but you might run into a crew telling you its not a "valid throw" because both dice didn't hit the table surface before hitting the back wall... which is what happened to me. You can have pretty good odds with a stacker shot.

Quote: AlanMendelson

...If Ahigh wants a "shot that works," let him do the stacker shot. It works. It only takes practice. There is no voo-doo involved, but you might run into a crew telling you its not a "valid throw" because both dice didn't hit the table surface before hitting the back wall... which is what happened to me. You can have pretty good odds with a stacker shot.

I've used this set, but the die on top tends to fly since all the energy of the first bounce goes straight through the die on the bottom... or are you describing something else?

Ayecvarumba, the goal of the "stack" is to have the bottom face of the bottom die frozen on the top. It involves a very, very soft toss from SR1 or SL1. I can't guarantee that it works all the time, but the only time I used it I had great success with it. Of course, I will be the first to attribute the "success" to luck, and only luck.

I tried to find a video on youtube of someone using the shot but I didn't.

I have not used it or even tried it since that one time at Rio.

By the way, I target the round "bowl" of the table corner hoping that the bottom die would have less room to flop around. That seemed to work better than aiming for the center flat wall.

I didn't read Alan's replies, but let me guess he's the expert on shots. Alan, why not share the cheapest place to buy cancelled dice? We all have our area of expertise. Go with what you know.

Quote: Ahigh

We all have our area of expertise.

Really?

What's yours?

Quote: MrV

Really?

What's yours?

Games. If you want details I think my linked in profile is a google search away. I am a physics programming specialist and at this moment I'm actually at a physics programming event in San Francisco.

Alan

Ahigh is a extremely intelligent guy that wants to do it his way, will he succeed, only time will tell.
I never took a class, and I'm self taught. I have to admit that I did sit in on a few of the Little Joe classes because I know all the guys that teach it and went there on their lunch breaks.

Developing a shot is not an overnight thing, it takes time. Thinking that something you are doing is above random is a mistake that most so-called DI's make. Almost all of these schools that teach anything to do with becoming a DI tell their students that they can't bet on the random rollers. I only know of one school that teaches their students that you can make money off the random rolls with a smart betting-approach to the game and that is Little Joe.

Here in Vegas you are almost forced into betting on some of these so-called random rollers if you want to get the dice, otherwise some of the casinos will pass the dice right by you claiming you didn't bet on anybody else on the table, therefore you can't shoot.

By thinking that you are above random, you are setting yourself up to lose, by making stupid bets like the $204 across. You have to have real time casino rolls, what you do on a practice table doesn't matter.
There is a world of difference then your home table and a casino. Without tracking all your rolls in the casinos, you can trick yourself into to believing that you are above average, when your not!
When you start looking at the data that you collected this will bring you back into the real world, where the casino edge is going to eat you alive.

We all remember our good rolls and have a tendency to forget our bad ones. Even the best DI's I know can't go into a casino and win every time they play. Our minds kind of cherry picks our rolls and the points you are seeing, you remember when you roll three of the same point in a row, or if you roll hardways in clumps. The reality of it is numbers do come in clumps and sometimes they will disappear, that is why I'm always writing about betting on the 6's and 8's where the books all say they are the best box numbers to bet on. There are times when nobody is rolling them , yet you have all the players on the table betting on them.

If you think you are a so-called DI and your not tracking the table, you could be in for a rude awakening, when your house comes crashing down on you. Some of these DI schools say its a waste of time tracking your rolls in a casino, now I often wonder why they tell their students that, could it be that they don't want the students to know the truth about what they are doing when they are shooting in a casino?

I think that Ahigh has a better chance of coming up with something that will work for him then most guys that try to become a DI. It would be nice to see him take some outside help, to see how far he can push what he is doing. We have all learned from our mistakes, which cost us a lot of money!
I think Ahigh's next step, should be taking his slow-motion cameras and looking at his shots. With some help from someone shooting the video for him, I think he could really improve what he is doing really fast.

I would volunteer to help him on that project if I could get some camera time looking at what my shots do when I'm shooting, that would be for my eyes only! I only wish that I had all the technical skills he has when it comes to this type of things, most of you guys don't appreciate all the time and money he has sunk into his workshop, so far we have seen some really neat slow-motion videos of his dice bouncing around the table.

Superrick, you wrote some very valid points. I hope your buddy Ahigh reads them:

Quote: superrick

Ahigh is a extremely intelligent guy that wants to do it his way, will he succeed, only time will tell.

Quote: superrick

There is a world of difference then your home table and a casino. Without tracking all your rolls in the casinos, you can trick yourself into to believing that you are above average, when your not!
When you start looking at the data that you collected this will bring you back into the real world, where the casino edge is going to eat you alive.

Quote: superrick

We all remember our good rolls and have a tendency to forget our bad ones. Even the best DI's I know can't go into a casino and win every time they play. Our minds kind of cherry picks our rolls and the points you are seeing, you remember when you roll three of the same point in a row, or if you roll hardways in clumps.

I make no claims to being a DI. In fact, I will tell you flat out I have no influence and no control over the dice. I wonder why I even bother trying sometimes. But hope springs eternal.

Alan

I can understand 100% why anybody that goes into a casino has a dream of hitting it big, they are chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. We have all see some of the scams that unscrupulous individuals sell to players that are looking for the magic bullet that they say will make them money in the casinos. They sell their systems, they sell their schools and anything else they can.

What drives the DI schools and books is a lot of fiction that is being written by a few fiction writers. Some player think that what they are reading is the truth and it's far from it. There are only a very few players that I would even come close to calling a DI. These guys are not winning the kind of money that our great fiction writers are writing about. There are a few boards that allow this kind of fiction to continue instead of putting a stop to it so they can sell their schools classes and anything else they are selling.

With that said I still have no problem with any school that tells it like it is and does not let fiction on their board. These schools can help players out if they are teaching betting skills along with their shooting. Most players that goes to the table don't have a clue when they are playing, and it is out and out BS when these schools tell their students that they can't bet on other players unless they are DI's.

I think I've lost more money betting on these so called DI's then I have betting on random roller. Good common sense tells you that the random rollers have been around from the moment they legalized gambling, and they have been winning from the first time the dice rolled down a legal table.
It wasn't until they coined the words Dice Influencer that anybody had a problem with what everybody calls the random rollers. There has been so many books written about it that they have their own little cottage industry and they will do anything they can to protect it. I've been call so many different name by these guys that its just funny. They think by calling me name they are going to silence me about being a DI.

These guys complain about what happens to them when they are playing craps and they only have themselves to blame for letting these fiction writer get away with the BS they are writing. Its about time that the few schools that are still teaching clean up their act and put a stop to the fiction that are on their boards. I don't have to mention names they know who they are!

Its not to hard to understand that the math of the game is in favor of the casinos and we are all playing a negative game and that effects everybody that plays the game of craps. There is no such thing as a AP player in craps, like there is in BJ. If you want to call yourself a DI or others are calling you that, you still need to know how to bet the game, then you need to know when to walk out the doors. The most important thing you need to know is that you are going to lose, if you don't have a plan of attack that is based on your betting skills, not your shooting skills.

For most players you are way better off reading some good books on the game, you should start off with one on the math of the game. I also highly recommend reading anything you can about casino management. Then and only then should you read anything about becoming a DI. If you don't have the time to invest in your shooting, then you should learn as much as you can about the game and betting it.

Here is a question for anybody that plays craps, how many books do you have on the game, if you only say one you better go out and get a few more that have opposing viewpoints on the game. That way you can make rational decisions on how you will bet the game!

Superrick, here's the difference between you and me:

I have only played with random shooters. I have never played with a DI or a DC.

Sure I have played with two people that once showed they could throw the dice "the right way" (the surgeon and the mystery guy at Caesars) but neither of them held the dice as long as some of the random shooters I've played with.

I believe that DI is possible, however. But so far, I haven't seen anyone at a casino or at a "school" or at a "seminar" or on video that can claim the title of being a DI or a DC or even a great shooter.

The longest roll I was ever on (at the table, betting along) last 1 hour and 20 minutes. And the shooter picked em up and threw them. No set. No attempt to control or influence. I don't need a DI. I just need another shooter like that.

Quote:

Alan
The longest roll I was ever on (at the table, betting along) last 1 hour and 20 minutes. And the shooter picked em up and threw them. No set. No attempt to control or influence. I don't need a DI. I just need another shooter like that.

Alan we have all seen these type of rolls,...if we play enough, and I've seen some of my DI's buddies just stand at the table and let them go by, because of the BS that some of these schools are teaching, and lets not forget our great fiction writers that are always on a campaign not to get their followers to bet on the so-called random rollers.

Their great fiction writes feed them so much BS, that they believe it! For guys that are so smart, you would think that they could figure out that the so-called random rollers get on more rolls that turn out to be mega hands. If they just used common sense they could figure it out on their own.

“The So-Call Random Rollers” Out Number The DI's 10's of thousands to 1.

Didn't we all agree that you have to have luck to win at craps? Well if your on a table and your out numbered 10 to ,..wouldn't it stand to reason that one of these shooter might get on a good roll? Yes guys I know that that statement might not hold water and the table could be ice cold, then you need to be on the darkside of the table.
Guys you don't have to bet on every shooter that is on the table that could turn out to be a disaster on your part, but there is always that hope that you can teach yourself to bet on shooters that you see something in the way they are shooting.

If you don't have a bankroll and you have a problem with losing, hang out around the craps tables, get smart and track the tables. Then pick one or two of these shooters that you think might win, because you are seeing something in what they are doing. It just might be that they are lucky and that's it. What difference does it make to you if you are winning. Make air bets, no money involved and see if your win % goes up by doing so! To many players never practice their betting skills, nor do they hone their skills to pick out shooters.

Speaking of DI's if you go on some of these boards that are devoted to only the DI's you will be surprised to find that they even say that when there is a group of them at a table most likely you are going to end up a loser. I do not play on tables that have groups of DI's on them and if I go to the tables with a DI, it will only be with one or two that I know. I bet on them just like a random roller.

What we see happening when they are in groups, is they think the next great shooter that they have read so much about will bail them out, if they had a bad roll. That kind of thinking goes right around the table, as they dig themselves deeper and deeper into a hole! If you take one or two of these guys out of that group to a different table away from the group, most likely you will make money!

The last time there was a class in town that I ran into some of their players, one of the shooters that I pick out to bet on, had to get away from the group so she could win. She found out that when she hit the tables with the group she was losing money!

We could go on talking about this forever. But the bottom line is this. If someone really could control the dice they wouldnt need much luck. After all... they "control" the dice.

The bottom line is there is no such thing as dice control. There never was. There probably never will be.

Will I accept "dice influencing"? Sure. But if you need luck too, you're not much of an influencer, are you?

But hope springs eternal. Good luck with it. I keep trying and you keep trying.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Will I accept "dice influencing"? Sure. But if you need luck too, you're not much of an influencer, are you?

The amount of luck (or positive deviation from the mean) required to win over the course of a weekend is approximately the same regardless of whether you or the house has a 1% edge. That's just as true for a card counter as it is for an alleged dice influencer. Betting with a small edge doesn't mean you don't need good luck anymore. It just means you need less.

Supperick,

The dice schools really are a joke. You're correct.

However, there really are some people that can control the dice via "sliding" spin like shots. This has been around almost as long as the game of craps. Yes, it's probably illegal in some locations, but such APs are experts at operating within the gray area of the law. It's not unusual for people like them to know more about the gaming law and the game they exploit than the casinos and the risk consultants that advise the casinos.

People have exploited control of the dice, and have won millions. People like Archie Karas, and more recently, the South Americans are just two examples. It may be difficult to imagine, but to this day, there is a sub culture of advantage players traveling like nomads to casinos around the world, and they aren't all exploiting just poker or BJ.

-Keyser

I would love to see a list of APs and DIs and DCs who have "won millions" playing craps.

Regarding the South Americans at Wynn with the dice sliding case, was their net win/loss ever made public? I ask that because I heard -- and I cannot verify -- that even with their "sliding" they still had a net loss.

Perhaps you should speak with Bill Zender. Based on what I've read, they certainly won a great deal over several plays. Maybe the casino attempted to freeze their front money towards the end?

Quote:

Keyser
The dice schools really are a joke. You're correct.

Not all the dice school are a joke if they teach betting and tell their students that they are not going out a win hundreds of thousands of dollars a year playing craps along with their shooting. The problem with some of them is they allow this fiction to go on so they can sell their schools!

Quote:

Keyser
People have exploited control of the dice, and have won millions. People like Archie Karas, and more recently, the South Americans are just two examples. It may be difficult to imagine, but to this day, there is a sub culture of advantage players traveling like nomads to casinos around the world, and they aren't all exploiting just poker or BJ.

Again I don't know what books you have been reading, but I will say one thing there are some great fiction writers out there!

Does it stand to reason that if you have the casino owner saying that Archie Karas wasn't cheating it would be a good indication that he was just getting lucky, and if he was cheating, then why didn't he go to jail?

Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...

Good news Rick! The famous gaming author Frank Scoblete, has joined the forum. No doubt he will straighten out the nonsense about the pass line being a bad bet. Maybe he will make an appearance on the Ahigh show and win a few DI bets! Bette Davis once said something about fastening your seatbelts!

Quote: DeMango

Good news Rick! The famous gaming author Frank Scoblete, has joined the forum. No doubt he will straighten out the nonsense about the pass line being a bad bet. Maybe he will make an appearance on the Ahigh show and win a few DI bets! Bette Davis once said something about fastening your seatbelts!

I've been ready to debunk this hoopla..

Supperick,

Jackie Newton's story holds the truth.

- From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton
Jack B: "His name is Archie. He's playing right now. Can you come and take a look?"
Jackie: "Sure. But I have a few questions. Is he standing right by the stickman?"
Jack B. "Yes. How did you know?"
Jackie: "Does he shoot with his hand upside down?"
Jack B. "Yes he does. How did you know?"
Jackie: "Does he toss the dice to hit right in front of the back rail every time?
Jack B. "Yes, yes. You must have seen him play?"
Jackie: "No, I haven't. But I think I know what he's doing. I'll be there in 30 minutes."
Jack B. "Thanks, Jackie. I'll meet you in the eye. We don't want him to see you watching him at the table. It might spook him. We need a chance to win our money back."
Jackie: "O.K. I'll be right there."

"I drove to the Horeshoe and went right to the eye. Jack was waiting there for me. Archie was the only player at the table. Jack said that he had been playing every day for a week. He would arrive at 4pm and lay until around 3am in the morning. He started off winning, continued to win, and is still winning. At the moment, he was ahead around $20 million, give or take a few hundred thousand." - From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton

"I had a real good view of the table. Looking at Archie reminded me of myself when I was younger. He was standing in my favorite spot - right next to the stickman. He was shooting what we used to call "The Snap". He was shooting it exactly the same way I used to shoot it. He was betting the come out every roll for $100 and taking $10,000 odds. The Horseshoe offered 100 to 1 odds. What a mistake. If he rolled a few numbers, he might get $100,000 or more on the table. This kid did have a lot of gamble in him." - From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton

According to Jackie Newton via his book, "I watched him play for quite a while. I must admit, Archie shooting at the table was an impressive sight."
- From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton

"My first recommendation to Jack was to put some foam rubber underneath the table felt. I suggested covering abut two feet from the end of the table. I had in mind the kind of foam rubber they have on ping pong paddles, but any kind of roam rubber should work. Archie always threw the die to hit right next to the end rail. The added foam rubber would make his dice bounce more. That would increase the randomness and make it harder for him to control the dice. And Archie wouldn't notice anything had changed. Just to be sure, Jack checked the Gaming Commission to be sure he was well within the regulations regarding craps table specifications." - From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton

"My second piece of advice to Jack was to put in new dice whenever Archie started to play. New dice start out with very sharp corners and edges. However, the edges get worn down with play. By the end of a full day of play, the edges and corners are more rounded and less sharp. You can see and feel the difference." - From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton



"It was interesting that Archie always started late, around 4pm after the dice had been in action for several hours." - From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton

"What Happened to Archie?"

"Jack Binion thanked me and said that he would follow my advice. The next day Archie would be playing with a bouncier table and new dice with sharp edges. I left the Horseshoe confident that Jack would now have a fair game with Archie. Even so, Archie had an even game on his $10,000 odds bets, so it would take Jack a long time to win back much money at a measly 1.51% on Archie's $100 come bets. But at least I could stop him from winning another $20 million."

"A couple weeks passed and I hadn't heard anything. Then one day I get a call from Jack. He was much more cheerful this time. He bragged that Archie had played for another week and had lost back everything except may $3 or 4 million. Then he finally quite and went back to Greece. I smiled, and said that was great news. It's not every day that you can save a friend $17 million!" From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton

"I checked around to see what people were saying about Archie. I heard he did go back to Greece for a while, but came right back to Vegas and continued to play poker with the 'In' crowd and gamble like there was no tomorrow. Same thing he did before he played craps at the Horseshoe! Archie never did find out exactly what happened at the Horseshoe. Nobody knew except for Jack and me. Now he knows. Nothing personal, Archie. Just taking care of business." - From Confessions of a Crossroad Gambler, “Gentleman” Jack Newton

I'm currently planning a show tomorrow. If no other direction, I will just be adding to my recorded throws. That's been on pause for a while with SOOPOO challenge and the GDC. I'm looking forward to seeing the p-value for my distributions of sevens to go sufficiently small to indicate how lucky I am.

Maybe I will see some of you folks?

Keyser

This is Ahighs thread take it somewhere else.

Ahigh please do some more slow-motion, thanks!

If anybody has a contact with Archie Karas, I would love to have Archie on a show.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be afraid to come on and show how he plays the game whether it's random or not.

I have heard that he plays roulette at the M. If anybody speaks with him, please let him know I'd love to have him on!

Quote: Ahigh

If anybody has a contact with Archie Karas, I would love to have Archie on a show. I have heard that he plays roulette at the M. If anybody speaks with him, please let him know I'd love to have him on!

Give it a rest: you aren't Leno.

Quote: MrV

Give it a rest: you aren't Leno.

And you aren't part of the Nielson ratings.

By the way, here's an interview of the GTC guys.

http://www.highrollerradioshow.com/cover-2#!__march-23/vstc1=the-golden-arm

when I went to the suggested link for the high roller radio show and the interview of the GTC guys, I saw a link to an interview with "dice shooter Aaron Hightower." Was this just a coincidence?

But when I clicked on the link I don't think it gave me the Aaron Hightower interview??

Quote: Ahigh

If anybody has a contact with Archie Karas, I would love to have Archie on a show.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be afraid to come on and show how he plays the game whether it's random or not.

I have heard that he plays roulette at the M. If anybody speaks with him, please let him know I'd love to have him on!

That would be pretty neat.
I'm looking forward to your show, I enjoyed it in the past.
Do I have to have a facebook account to post?
If you think of it and it's not a big problem can the go-pro be demonstrated?
Thanks

You should create an account on Ustream. You can do it through facebook, or directly through UStream.

I would suggest you try to create an account directly through UStream and not link it to facebook.

Let me know if you have problems. I know it's a pain, but it's part of what you get for a free broadcast system.

I'm more than willing to help in more detail if you have more specific questions.