Working odds?

I've done it a few times, but I usually leave them off on the come out roll like most people. From what I gather, it sounds like having them working would be part of an optimal strategy since the odds don't change. But how do you factor in the fact that your odds are returned to you on a come out 7, the only stage of the game where you get that money returned to you? Plus, you never know if someone's trying to roll a 7 (although I am on the fence about dice control/setting and all that). At the very least, people are rooting for a 7 on the come out roll (why not root for an 11?), which creates a conflict of interest.

Now that I think about it though, I guess your odds would be returned if they were off during the middle of a roll and someone sevened-out. But I never turn off bets during the point stage though.

If it is a busy table, noisy etc., I leave them off. I'll probably leave them off if I think the table could get busy. IMO you don't want any issues and you don't want them 'on sometimes off sometimes' on the come-out.

It's one thing I like about the dark side. Always on!

The odds on the pass line are also "returned to you," as you can just take them, and all true odds down at any time.
The convention is that place bets and come point odds are off on the come-out roll, - as that is where crap players hope and expect to see the sevens occuring.
People believe that on a hot streak, the 7's do appear, it's just that the timing of them occurs during the come-out rolls (the belief being "use 'em up then!" is the hope...)

Quote: FourFiveFace

Plus, you never know if someone's trying to roll a 7 (although I am on the fence about dice control/setting and all that). At the very least, people are rooting for a 7 on the come out roll (why not root for an 11?), which creates a conflict of interest.

If you don't believe in dice setting / controlled shooting, then is there any realy difference between trying to roll a come out 7 and merely rooting for it?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

If you don't believe in dice setting / controlled shooting, then is there any real difference between trying to roll a come out 7 and merely rooting for it?

There is no difference in trying to roll a 7 than in rooting for it or in rooting for someone else to roll a 7. Your whooping, hollering, and incantations will have no effect on whatever number you or anyone else rolls. None whatsoever. Your holding your hands in some special way will have no effect on what number is rolled, irrespective of whether it is you or someone else holding the dice.

It's strictly a timing issue. If you are there to gamble, I say you should leave them on, especially if your betting style is come bet+odds. I almost always leave them on.

Nothing is sweeter than a hit on one of your working bets on the come out roll, and nothing is more painful than a winner seven :) :(

It's a matter of personal preference, but I leave my come bet odds automatically OFF on any ensuing come out rolls, because:

1) it's easier: no instructions to the dealers, so less for them to do on a busy game; and

2) many shooters seem to roll a natural seven in a subsequent come out roll as part of a long string of rolls.

I think the main reason I don't usually leave them on is because if a 7 is rolled, noone else on the table feels my pain with me. :) Everyone else just won, but I just lost.

The one common exception I will make is I will put the 6/8 odd ON and the rest off. Some dealers will allow this, some won't. You could pick any number you wanted, I just happen to like 6 and 8.

Try Place betting instead. Place bets are always off on the come out.

Unlike Come bettors, Place bettors don't lose any portion of their bets if a 7 is thrown on the come out.

I used to have my place bets working on the come out roll. These days I don't. No real reason either way...

Quote: soulhunt79

The one common exception I will make is I will put the 6/8 odd ON and the rest off. Some dealers will allow this, some won't. You could pick any number you wanted, I just happen to like 6 and 8.

ALL dealers should allow it. If they don't call the boxman / floorperson.

I prefer to always leave the 4 & 10 on as these numbers don't get rolled often
And I hate it when they hit on a come out and I am OFF!

There isn't any EV difference by turning them on or off since, thus making it a personal preference type of decision. I use to keep the odds turned on all the time but have since changed my approach. I now allow them to stay off for the following reasons.

1) It's easier on the dealers and fewer mistakes are made by instucting them to keep the odds on (especially at crowded tables).
2) It provides me to 'relax' though the come out roll since I have less money in action. I can accomplish the same thing by turning odds off at any time, but using a made point as the random event to decrease the amount at risk, even if it's only for a roll or two, works for me.
3) Getting the odds bet back if the shooter rolls a 7 is akin to getting back a tax return, although you may still end up with a loss on a come out 7, a return feels better than not getting anything back.

The come odds don't have a house edge so by leaving the come odds off on a come out,
you are actually weighting your bets with a house edge more in the houses favor.

Quote: Ask the Wizard-craps

I have heard it said that with one come bet a player should call off the odds on a come out roll, but with two or more the player should leave them on. The rational is that with two or more on the odds of rolling one of the come points is greater than rolling a 7, but with one bet the player is more likely to win than lose.
— SD from San Francisco, California

The player should always leave the odds on regardless of how many come bets are active. When considering the options looking at the probability of winning alone is not enough. Yes, with one come bet the odds of losing the come bet are greater than winning, however the potential win is greater than potential loss. The reason the player should always leave the odds on are because it is a bet with zero house edge. By turning the odds off the player is making the overall game more heavily weighted towards the bets with a house edge, thus increasing the overall ratio of the expected loss to the total amount bet.

The Wizard agrees with Wong-Bo (and me).

Quote: WongBo

The come odds don't have a house edge so by leaving the come odds off on a come out,
you are actually weighting your bets with a house edge more in the houses favor.

The edge is the same whether they are on or off at 0% HA anyway, as only the flat come point (and not its odds) are always alive, and cannot be shut off, exactly like a pass line bet that cannot be called off.
Since the odds are at 0% house edge themselves, its immaterial if they are on or off. The flat bets are always on, and provides the HA. You can 'keep them up" by playing an Any 7 or just paying for them, to keep them up if a seven is rolled, as a "put" bet.

Quote: Paigowdan

You can 'keep them up" by playing an Any 7 or just paying for them, to keep them up if a seven is rolled, as a "put" bet.

Not following.
Any seven is The worst of the sucker bets. HE 16.67...
Do you mean as a hedge? Bad strategy.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

ALL dealers should allow it. If they don't call the boxman / floorperson.

I agree that all dealers should allow it. It is never a big deal to me because I know when I'm keeping them ON I'm losing money. So if the casino doesn't want me to lose money, I'm not going to argue with them.

I actually think a few times when I've asked, it was the boxman that said no. The only reason I can see no being a good answer for them is if they don't have enough on/off chips to mark it for the cameras.

I believe Stanford Wong wrote in his book Wong on Dice that he would leave his place bet of the 6 and 8 working on the come out as long as the shooter was not setting for the 7 on the come out. Also if the shooter has come bets working even though he makes his point he will not be trying to throw a seven on the come out roll. There are more ways to throw the seven than any other number so I tend to leave them off on the come out but if I do leave them working it is only the place bet of the 6 and 8. In Scoblete's book he states the Captain never left anything working on the come out as that was his break in the action or something to that effect. This was prior to the Dice Control craze. I have never had a dealer question my wanting to leave them working.

Last year I started working my odds on the come out rolls. I usually place bet, so I don't always have come bets out there, and many times I may even forget I had come bets. Since I tip the dealers early in my play, the dealers are usually looking out for me. I will tell them that my odds are ALWAYS working, unless I say otherwise. The dealers always relay that information to the box. The box has directed me to be paid after one of my come bets hit on a come out roll, when the dealer realized he forgot to mark the odds as ON. And, I have also had my odds removed after a come out 7, even though the odds were not marked ON. I am fine with that, as it was my intention when I told the dealer.
Having the odds working had been a good deal for me. I got so tired of seeing my 4/10 come bets not get paid on the odds when that was set as the new point, so getting paid was nice. However, last September, I believe I lost around 50% of my odds bets on come out 7s, and this past trip last weekend set a new low for me.
I had come bets working on 4 come out rolls, and I lost my odds on 3 of the 4 due to come out 7s. One roll was $300 in odds(3 points), another was $150 (2 points) and the third was $80 (1 point) worth of odds bets wiped out, and the other one was just a wash. That did quite a bit of damage to me.

And, once again, I went into the craps mode. At one point on the come out roll, I threw a 12, 3, 3, 3, 3. That's right, five craps rolls in a row, and the last 4 were 3s. And speaking of streaks, on my first roll of the trip I opened up with 11,11,11. I consider myself to be a pretty disciplined craps player, avoiding the center action (save for an occasional hardway bet), however, my propensity to throw come out craps in streaks, is really messing with my mind.

Prior to the trip, I had the premonition that I would win some hard 10 bets, with a $25 bet. Now, as I stated, I rarely play the bet, and never for more than $5-$10. But I got that feeling late the first day, and threw $25 out for hard 10, when there was a 10 point. Two rolls later, 5-5. Nice $175 win, plus my PL odds( although I cheaped out at $50 odds). I made 2 other $25 hardways bets on the trip, again on the hard 10 (I lost the hardway on the soft 10, but got paid on the point), and a $25 hard 4, which also hit for me for another $175. I wish my premonition had been black chips :-(

Craps is STUPID. I play the smart bets and can't win, and come out way ahead on the stupid center table bets

How's this for honesty? At Joker's Wild in Henderson, I had every number covered with come bets and $10 odds on each. I was working on the come out and let every dealer know that. A new dealer came on, and I told her I'm always working. I'm not sure she heard or understood me. (Boyd Gaming likes to hire foreigners). Shooter rolled a come-out seven, and she started returning my odds back to me. I said, "No, I lost those. I was working on the come-out." She seemed amazed that I would correct her. $50 swing in the house's favor. Dan Lubin, this is my good deed for the century :)