Stacked Dice
Poll
 | 5 votes (13.88%) | ||
| | 25 votes (69.44%) | ||
| | 6 votes (16.66%) |
36 members have voted
The rule is that as long as they wound up stacked atop one another with no outside influence that would otherwise cause a no-roll, then the stacked dice roll is valid despite all the brash young stickmen who don't know their jobs and want to call no roll. A die landing atop a stack of chips is valid. A die landing atop another die is valid.
That stick should have been written up. Twice.
How can you tell what the bottom die is?Quote: FleaStiffThe rule is ... the stacked dice roll is valid.
If one die is on top of the other, you cannot be certain of the top face on the bottom die. More importantly, the eye in the sky can't see it either.
Therefore, I would think it's a No-Roll. Of course, if I were the stick, I might have asked the floorman for a ruling.
Yeah, but in that case, you can still see which face is up, without having to touch anything.Quote: FleaStiffA die landing atop a stack of chips is valid. A die landing atop another die is valid.
If a die is leaning against the rail or chips, you can see which way it would fall without actually moving the chips or rail.
In fact, you see it all the time where a die lands behind the dealers stack. The dealer will move the stack, before moving the die. The obvious reason is so there's no chance of funny business.
When they're stacked, you're asking the dealer to touch a die before the roll is known? That's just begging someone to complain, particularly if the roll turns out to be a seven out.
Anyway, the rules used to be quite clear. Stacked Dice were a valid roll as long as that is simply how they landed and no one did anything to influence it. Striking a player's sleeve and bouncing onto the bottom die was valid but adhering to a woolen sleeve and then after a brief delay merely falling onto the bottom die was not.
If the throw was proper and stayed within the table its a valid roll even if they land atop each other. You want to encourage the proper throws and the throws that don't go wild but you don't want to discourage those random bounces because that is what keeps things fair. If a die lands cocked against something such as a stack of chips... its the Ice Cube Rule. Think of melting ice and call out how it will land when the ice melts.
Nope. You'd have to know if the dice are right-handed or left-handed.Quote: FleaStiffFirst of all by looking at the sides you should be able to tell...
I will of course defer to the rules, but it just rubs me the wrong way that a dealer would have to reach in and handle one die before the complete roll is known.
I understand not wanting to discourage random rolls, but it happens so rarely, and it seems like such an impossible trick to achieve on demand, that there's nothing a dealer can say.
Usually the set of five dice supplied at opening of the table are going to be all the same. Type, color, even sequential numbers.Quote: DJTeddyBearNope. You'd have to know if the dice are right-handed or left-handed.
19:47-1.9 Invalid roll of the dice
(a) A roll of the dice shall be invalid whenever either or both of the dice go off the table or whenever one die comes to rest on top of the other.
http://www.state.nj.us/casinos/actreg/reg/chapter_47.html#8
Quote: boxman4I have been in the business 8 years now, 7 of which have predominately been on a craps game, and until this weekend had never witnessed stacked dice after a roll. This not only happened, but it happened twice within 20 minutes, same stick man on both occasions, who quickly slapped them calling no roll. I vaguely remember learning about this in school, and believe it to be a valid roll, obviously calling the tops of both. Unfortunately our hands were tied on the second such roll, forced to call no roll since it happened so closely to the first with pretty much all the same players. I work with many who have been doing this 20 plus years, some of which also had never witnessed stacked dice. My question to all of you is have you witnessed this and how often?
I've seen it happen a few times. As I recall, in each case, the end of the table was crowded with stacks of line and odds bets which helped to keep the dice from bounding all over. In each case, the stick asked for a call from the dealer on that side. The dealer would gingerly pick up the top die, and make the call. Everyone was watching to see if the bottom die was moved, so no one complained.
For me at least, it seems that I've seen it as often as a die leaning against a stack of chips at, what appeared to me, exactly 45 degrees on an edge. The call went the shooter's way one time, and seven out the other.
Quote: kaysirtapWhen I learned to deal, I was taught that the dice had to be called before either of them were moved. Having said that, it is possible to determine the upward face by looking at the other sides.
Yes! First, by looking at the four exposed sides you can narrow down the side on top to two possibilities.
If it is 1 or 6, the 2 and 3 form a V shape, pointing towards the 6.
If it is a 2 or 5, then if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 6, then the 2 is on top; if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 1, then the 5 is on top.
If it is a 3 or 4, then if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 6, then the 3 is on top; if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 1, then the 4 is on top.
Some cheap dice may not follow this convention, but Vegas-standard dice all should.
Quote: WizardYes! First, by looking at the four exposed sides you can narrow down the side on top to two possibilities.
If it is 1 or 6, the 2 and 3 form a V shape, pointing towards the 6.
If it is a 2 or 5, then if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 6, then the 2 is on top; if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 1, then the 5 is on top.
If it is a 3 or 4, then if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 6, then the 3 is on top; if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 1, then the 4 is on top.
Some cheap dice may not follow this convention, but Vegas-standard dice all should.
when i was in jail in maricopa county making dice, i would always make them this way and people thought that looked odd. i thought it looked odd any other way. a lot of mexicans who made dice would make a 2 as two dots across the die instead of at opposite corners. does anyone know if this is common practice in mexico?
Quote: rudeboyoiwhen i was in jail in maricopa county making dice, i would always make them this way and people thought that looked odd. i thought it looked odd any other way. a lot of mexicans who made dice would make a 2 as two dots across the die instead of at opposite corners. does anyone know if this is common practice in mexico?
Nareed? I can say that Chinese dice used in pai gow and sic bo put the two dots across the face like that.
it seems so out of place in regards to how they arrange the rest of the dots on the other faces.
Quote: rudeboyoiis 2 lucky in china or something?
No, nothing special about it, as far as I know. Just about all there is to know is that 4 is bad and 8 is good.
Quote: WizardYes! First, by looking at the four exposed sides you can narrow down the side on top to two possibilities.
If it is 1 or 6, the 2 and 3 form a V shape, pointing towards the 6.
If it is a 2 or 5, then if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 6, then the 2 is on top; if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 1, then the 5 is on top.
If it is a 3 or 4, then if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 6, then the 3 is on top; if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 1, then the 4 is on top.
Some cheap dice may not follow this convention, but Vegas-standard dice all should.
I believe if the bottom die were obstructed somehow and only two adjacent sides were visible, you would still be able to determine the upward face regardless of whether or not the 2 or 3 were showing.
Quote: WizardNareed?
Opposite corners in every board game and backgammon set I ever saw.
Quote: rudeboyoiwhen i was in jail in maricopa county making dice...
how did you go about making your own dice?
Quote: WizardI just had breakfast with "The Bone Man," a dice dealer here in Vegas. He said the number of times he has seen that happen is zero. However, if it did, it would be a valid roll. They would lift the top die to expose the bottom one.
So perhaps we should think of this as "Vegas Rules" (in the sense of Vegas Triumphs) but remember that there is no National Manual of Craps and that Colorado and New Jersey by statute make different rules. I guess that is what has been happening in casino gambling nationwide. Vegas is the final arbiter but nationwide gambling means different rules. And todays dice crews do not have the experience or the respect for the old ways.
Quote: odiousgambithow did you go about making your own dice?
with toilet paper, state soap, and state toothpaste. you rip up the toilet paper into little pieces. mix it with the state soap and toothpaste and it forms a putty. then you form it into a cube shape in the corner of something. under the table in your cell was the best place to form it. then i went above and beyond. i would soak pencils in hot water until you can tear them apart and remove the lead. then grind up the lead into little shavings with an emery board. mix it with dandruff shampoo. it makes a black/greyish color and you can paint the dice with them. then i would poke holes in the dice with a pencil and fill them in with toothpaste. so you would have black dice with white dots.
Quote: rudeboyoi... then i went above and beyond. i would soak pencils in hot water until you can tear them apart and remove the lead. then grind up the lead into little shavings with an emery board. mix it with dandruff shampoo. it makes a black/greyish color and you can paint the dice with them. then i would poke holes in the dice with a pencil and fill them in with toothpaste. so you would have black dice with white dots.
I have to admire your resourcefulness and attention to detail.
Quote: WizardI have to admire your resourcefulness and attention to detail.
thanks :)
Quote: WizardI have to admire your resourcefulness and attention to detail.
likewise!
Doesn't he have his own web site and promote dice control as well as proper betting and the other finer points of the game? If so maybe he could be of help in locating a controlled shooter who would be willing to do a test similar to the one expressed in the thread about Stanford Wongs opinion of Dice control. If I remember correctly the Bone Man does believe it is possible to influence the dice and he has seen it done.Quote: WizardI just had breakfast with "The Bone Man," a dice dealer here in Vegas. He said the number of times he has seen that happen is zero. However, if it did, it would be a valid roll. They would lift the top die to expose the bottom one.
* Any die landing in the dice boat = NO ROLL
* Any die landing on the bank = NO ROLL (but landing on any bet or dealer's working stack is valid)
* One die landing on top of the other = NO ROLL
I witnessed all of these events, all correctly called NO ROLL by the stick/boxman, at least once over about 5 years.
Since all NZ rules for every table game were derived from US or UK rules, I am surprised that stacked dice is valid in Vegas.
One event I saw that was NOT covered by the rules, and which I believe must be rarer than any of the above, was this:
One die ended up leaning against a dealer working stack, but not against the edge of the die. It was balanced against the CORNER of the die! This means of course that the die was also balanced on another corner of the die on the table. I knew that this would be an interesting call, since the normal rule for a die leaning against something is to decide which way the die would fall if the object being leaned against was removed. In this case it is impossible to determine which of 2 possible sides would be face up if the stack was removed. Neither the stick nor the boxman was able to make a call, so it was referred to the pit boss. Amazingly, the die remained balanced while we all waited. It was a letdown in the end. The pit boss took one look at the die, and immediately flicked it away with his pen, calling NO ROLL.
Has anyone else seen this, or know of it being covered in the rules?
Quote: algle
One die ended up leaning against a dealer working stack, but not against the edge of the die. It was balanced against the CORNER of the die! This means of course that the die was also balanced on another corner of the die on the table.
I'm sorry, but I am having a difficult time picturing the condition you are describing. Is the die resting on its, "edge" (where two flat surfaces meet), or is it on a, "corner", (where three flat surfaces meet)? If the edge, I have seen this twice, and calls were made both times. I have never seen a die end up on a corner. "No Roll" seems appropriate.
Quote: AyecarumbaI'm sorry, but I am having a difficult time picturing the condition you are describing. Is the die resting on its, "edge" (where two flat surfaces meet), or is it on a, "corner", (where three flat surfaces meet)? If the edge, I have seen this twice, and calls were made both times. I have never seen a die end up on a corner. "No Roll" seems appropriate.
On a corner, where 3 surfaces meet! One corner only touching the felt, and one corner only touching the stack. The other 6 corners were all touching nothing. This is only one step away from balancing a die on one corner, as though you were going to spin it.
Quote: algleOn a corner, where 3 surfaces meet! One corner only touching the felt, and one corner only touching the stack. The other 6 corners were all touching nothing. This is only one step away from balancing a die on one corner, as though you were going to spin it.
Thanks for the clarification. I am sure there were some unhappy hardway bettors when the call went "No Roll".
How many of you have thrown dice legally that ended up stacked not just once but twice?
