Wizard's changes to Craps webpage

Presumably on Aug. 19, 2010 the Wizard made some changes to his WoO webpage on Craps. If this was discussed here, I couldn't find it.

In particular I notice the tables that showed the overall change to the Pass/Don't Pass in HE when taking or laying free odds is now gone. I assume what had been there was actually correct?

One thing I was thinking about is anyone saying they care about the difference in HE between the P/DP. The emphasized difference now on that page is the .02% per roll, or 2 cents per roll if betting $100. For $5 and $10 bettors I still say, you have to be kidding to claim you care.... unless you are laying free odds.

This was because there was more difference IIRC on the HE if you factor what you can lay on free odds playing dark, vs what you can take on free odds playing right. This is totally because you can bet more laying the free odds and no other reason, unless I am very much mistaken. If you are willing to bet more, I think you can make more of a case to go dark, even for $5 and $10 line bets. However, those tables are now missing!

Personally, I'd like to see them put back, at least in the "My other info" section.

PS, yes I did find this but somebody put a lot of work in those tables. Why discard them?

I recently made an effort to simplify my craps page, and explain the house edge in three ways: per roll, per bet made, and per bet resolved.

Those tables got the ax. However, since you ask, I'll bring them back.

Quote: Wizard

Those tables got the ax. However, since you ask, I'll bring them back.

Ask and ye shall receive!

thanks!

Quote: Wizard

I recently made an effort to simplify my craps page, and explain the house edge in three ways: per roll, per bet made, and per bet resolved.

Those tables got the ax. However, since you ask, I'll bring them back.

Yes I agree the old Craps page had a nice layout to it and Us Craps players are creatures of habit, even when it comes to reading about Craps at the WoO.

I may suggest adding more pictures with your female models making the bets you write about.
Pose them making and showing each kind of bet.

I realize that might get expensive to pay for more photos so you could add a paid members only area to WoO site showing the hot shots, so to speak. I would pay for that.
Oh, Oh my turn to watch the BBQ!

Quote: Wizard

I recently made an effort to simplify my craps page, and explain the house edge in three ways: per roll, per bet made, and per bet resolved.

Ah, simplicity. A wonderful concept. Someone once mentioned Occam's Razor to me, but all I know is that I used to use a Gillette blade but now am too lazy to shave and simply sport a beard, so I don't know much about Occam's Razor at all.

I think that in many fields, gambling included, there is much passion and much sloganizing. Whether it be "Remember Pearl Harbor" or "Down With 6:5" the passion is often at a higher level than the understanding is. We all take a moral stance at times and some simply refuse to compromise on what is thought to be improper for some reason. We all stand as the Hallelujah chorus is played, young ladies stand and twirl hemlines as The Alabama Song is played. Its tradition. Its proper. It would be wrong to change it. Yet, along comes some casino bean counter and changes Blackjack to 6:5 and people accept it. Strange. And morally wrong! Downright uncivilized!

I'm suddenly reminded of these frequent late night news clips about people queing up to buy lottery tickets when a prize is at some ultra high level yet none of the purchasers focus on that for each mile they drove they had seven times the chance of being killed in an auto accident than of winning that lottery's grand prize. We focus on the "carrot" and perhaps on the "stick" but we often act in ignorance.

A mathematical analysis that cuts through the slogans and mis-information is much appreciated even if not entirely understood by me. Sometimes I think, well the Don't is slightly better for the player so I'll take every little bit of better than I can. Sometimes I think its just a matter of pennies and I'm about to give away several dollars to the dealers and waitresses so why should I worry about a few pennies? Either way, its nice to have the knowledge of just what is indeed at risk.

We all know the hardways are sucker bets, but its nice to have some way to see just how much of a sucker those players are. We know slot machine players are complete utter fools but secretly we sure would like to be standing their grinning into the camera as we pose holding one of those humungous checks.

We all know that you should hit 16 but egads, I seem to always lose when I do it. Well, its nice to know that the optimal play is indeed to hit it, but its only a little bit worse to stand at 16 and take your chances. The math helps to resolve our emotional reactions.

So the knowledge is indeed much valued.

Quote: odiousgambit

...One thing I was thinking about is anyone saying they care about the difference in HE between the P/DP. The emphasized difference now on that page is the .02% per roll, or 2 cents per roll if betting $100. For $5 and $10 bettors I still say, you have to be kidding to claim you care.... unless you are laying free odds.

This was because there was more difference IIRC on the HE if you factor what you can lay on free odds playing dark, vs what you can take on free odds playing right. This is totally because you can bet more laying the free odds and no other reason, unless I am very much mistaken. If you are willing to bet more, I think you can make more of a case to go dark, even for $5 and $10 line bets....

I would like to see some thoughts on the statement that you can bet more, and thus, are betting more (presumably to make more) on the dark side (ie. DP and Laying odds).

First off, every casino I have been in from NV to MS to PA have all had the same rules when it came to DP. You can wager odds on the DP, so that your win is up to the maximum odds of the table. Let's take the simple case of the 4, a 2:1 payout, on a $10 table with 10x odds.
$10 PL bet can put $100 in odds behind, and if it wins, will win $210.
$10 DP bet can put $200 in lay odds, and if it wins, will win $110.

SO, you are definitely wagering more with the dark side strategy, but your win amount is much less, on the given number. What I have failed to include, because I am not confident in my ability to calculate correctly, is the fact that you are more likely to win the DP/Lay bet more often than you would the Pass bet. I know the frequency of the wins will skew the numbers above, but my question is, Will it change it enough to offset the $100 diff between winning $210 vs $110?

Since the Lay odds require you to put more out on the table, does one need a larger BR to play DP ?

Quote: RaleighCraps

I would like to see some thoughts on the statement that you can bet more, and thus, are betting more (presumably to make more) on the dark side (ie. DP and Laying odds).

just quickly, to 'win more' with free odds is always suspect. A greater portion of your bet pays no house edge. But the whole bet has to be larger, hmmm.

for sure the house edge is lower. As always, the EV does not change. Perhaps it is more about increasing the variance even more. Gotta think about that.

Quote: raleighcraps

Since the Lay odds require you to put more out on the table, does one need a larger BR to play DP ?

Yes and that was answered here Bankroll for Don't Pass vs Passline

Thanks for the pointer guido. That thread happened during my hiatus from the board. I have posted my question in that thread.

I decided to make a poll out of a post I just removed from this thread. Please visit Which is the Best Bet?.

Quote: Wizard

I recently made an effort to simplify my craps page, and explain the house edge in three ways: per roll, per bet made, and per bet resolved.

Okay. I get the difference between Per Bet Made and Per Bet Resolved.

Now this "per roll" is a bit misleading. Its sort of a per hypothetical roll or theoretical roll or per roll for an average game in which a point is either made or lost in 7.8 rolls or something like that. So maybe it should be "Per (Hypothetical) Roll" or some such thing in the table.

Let us take the very first table as an example.
If the house edge is 1.414 percent on a Pass Line bet, exactly how do you get 0.42 percent if its expressed as "Per Roll"?
A PassLine bet can be Won on the first and only roll.
A PassLine bet can be Lost on the first and only roll.
A PassLine bet can be "resolved" either way after anywhere from Two to Several Hundred rolls but will usually be resolved in some some more reasonable number of rolls.
Just how many rolls of 0.42 does it take to make 1.414? Or is my understanding of this way off?

>Some casinos pay even more, like 5X, 10X, 20X, or 100X odds on all points

Although more precisely stated immediately above and below that sentence, I feel it is an alarming misstatement.
The neophyte reading that page might think the payout is higher rather than merely that the casino is allowing a higher amount to be wagered.

Quote: FleaStiff

Just how many rolls of 0.42 does it take to make 1.414? Or is my understanding of this way off?

The average pass line bet takes 1.414/0.42=3.357 rolls to resolve.