"Boring" strategy

In the past, I have been playing pass line + 1 or 2 come bets. I would not maximize odds, because that would put me beyond my comfort level (i.e. risk of ruin for my desired time of play). Lately, I have been switching to the lower eV play of just playing the pass line and taking maximum (345 where I play) odds. This gets me to about the same risk of ruin (=excitement?) level, but with less cost per hour in the long run. I thought it might be too boring (what, only one number!) but I actually enjoy watching the action at the table, and this makes it easier to do that! Sure if a shooter gets on a long roll without hitting his point I have to watch everyone pull in winnings while I sit there, BUT I also get to cringe less when a shooter wipes out the board with big red without repeating a single point number.

For those who like the numbers (120 rolls per hour):
$10 pass line better + 1 come bet, double odds. From Simulation: eV = -$9/hour, standard deviation = ~$250 per root hour
$10 Pass line, 345 odds: eV = -$5/hour, standard deviation ~ $300 per root hour.

What do you think, anyone else do this? Too boring?


(Full Disclosure: I do very occasionally throw in few hardways and crappy bets like that. Also when I have the dice, I up the action by placing numbers or with come bets, but otherwise its pass line + max odds.)

When I'm playing right, that's about what I do, have one bet working on the pass line w/odds(maybe not max though) and a possible place 6/8 for a whopping $6 each. Sure it's somewhat boring, but I'm obviously a conservative gambler(if I'm even a gambler at all). Typically when I play wrong, I have more action going. I try to have 3 don't bets up and working, I replace any bet that gets picked off until the 7-out. That's probably boring for a lot of folks, too.

I voted other.

I would think too boring and watching others gather winnings on other numbers would not be fun IMO. Why dont you just place minimum place bets for the 6 and 8?? So at a $5 table you would be risking $12 dollars more and at least getting a little more action. I think this better than playing the middle bets.

I usually do a PL + Single Odds (5 + 5/6) and Place 6 and 8 (6 each) or Place 6 and 9 (if point 8) or Place 5 and 8 (if point 6). It works for me. On occasion (very rarely) I will go to PL + 3/4/5 (5 + 3/4/5) and increase Place bets to 12 each. Very rarely, though. I used to be a PL and Double Odds, or, if I can find a 1 dollar table, I will max out odds (Jokers Wild, here I come in about a week.)

Quote: DrEntropy

What do you think, anyone else do this? Too boring?

Heck, no! You are playing the best possible way you can play. There's plenty of variance, too. Craps players are action junkies. The way I see it, placing multiple come bets is like playing "speed craps" -- you are getting more pass line bets in at once, instead of one per shooter. But each one of those bets carries a 1.41% house edge on the flat bet. It's throwing your money away faster.

I'm sure most craps players would like to be able to play your way. I'm trying to get there myself :)

I to have been trying to be disciplined and play one number with max odds. But it is true, it is hard to watch when the 5 and 9 hit over and over and you are the 6. But the math never lies in the long run even though our exposure to it is small due to the time we get to spend at the table the pass line with max odds if your bankroll allows it is the best way to play. I just wish I could convince myself of that. Frank Scoblete wrote a great article about this subject, it was either in casino Player or on Casino city times web site. Basically he said your game is between you and the number your on. Nothing else matters nor has anything to do with your game so if you are on the 6 and the 8 comes up 4 times in a row it does not matter because it has no effect on your bet. I know it sounds good on paper but you can certainly rest assured that we will be kicking ourselves for not placing the 8 as well. But it is true when the 7 shows we will be slightly less annoyed as we will have lost less money. If you can afford come bets with odds ( do not make them if you cannot put the odds behind them) then that is also good but your bankroll and stomach has to be able to take the hits until you get that roll that makes your night or trip.

actually I think the way you are playing is best, but I don't seem to be able to resist adding come bets at some point. If the table gets hot it is truly what I have come for, that possibility of being there with those bets up when it happens. Since past events do not matter, there is no way to predict when the table gets hot, you've got to take your chances.

There is no easy way to say any betting strategy in craps is "best", just an awareness of what suits you, and what is a truly horrible way to bet (like the Big 6, or only playing the centre action).

I sometimes play line and double odds. I sometimes play line, single odds and single number. Sometimes I'll press, sometimes I'll take what comes. I sometime play line, single odds and 2 come bets with odds. I sometimes play line and full odds. Depends on my bank roll, table limits, the table and my mood.

If I'm settled in for a while, I tend to be more conservative, and just enjoy my time there.

Quote: MrRalph

Frank Scoblete wrote a great article about this subject, it was either in casino Player or on Casino city times web site.

I think this is what you are referring to:
http://www.casinocenter.com/?p=2022

Quote: DrEntropy

I think this is what you are referring to:
http://www.casinocenter.com/?p=2022

That sure was a wordy way to say "hey, nothing's happened"...LOL It was a fun read though.

Quote: teddys

placing multiple come bets is like playing "speed craps" -- you are getting more pass line bets in at once, instead of one per shooter.

Some golfers do 18 holes each morning: six holes with three golf balls.

A come bet is nothing but an opportunity to keep making new passline bets as if it really was a new shooter.

On-edit: Perhaps the desire to make come bets is an example of "The Buzz" affecting a gambler who might otherwise just wait around for his passline bet to be resolved and then make another one. Gamblers want action. In the days when crap games were in back alleys until a cop came by, it might have made sense to have alot of action.

I personally play the pass line with full odds and I am always on the come with full odds. This is because I crave the action! I estimate that I get the same number of total bets as I would if I play 4 times as long.

I generally play $5 PL + $5-10 odds and place the 6-8 for $6. That's all my bankroll allows. But that's okay for me. It's less things for me to keep track of.

That's a great stategy to keep HE to the minimum!
I used to be an action-junky myself (pass with 3/4/5, Place the 6/8, Buy the 4/10)
However I've learned to keep my action on the LOWEST HE before anything else...
I'll start out with $5 on the pass with 3/4/5, if the shooter makes the point, I'll double it; another point, it goes to $15...
Possiblities:
4/10: $5 + $15 = $35 total --> $10 + $30 = $70 total --> $15 + $45 = $105 total
5/9: $5 + $20 = $35 total --> $10 + $40 = $70 total --> $15 + $60 = $105 total
6/8: $5 + $25 = $35 total --> $10 + $50 = $70 total --> $15 + $75 = $105 total

I'll get a $60 average for this play. Start with a $500 bankroll.

I hate to bring you fella craps players some bad news: It is impossible to have good results with multiple bets per roll whether place betting or come betting, the ole ugly is just too prevalent. Make one good bet(pass-odds is my favorite), design your betting scheme, and stick to it. If you play this game long enough, you will learn the futility of multiple bets, and that is how they get us with all the bets offered which is quite ingenious.

I hate to bring you fella craps players some bad news: It is impossible to have good results with multiple bets per roll whether place betting or come betting, the ole ugly is just too prevalent. Make one good bet(pass-odds is my favorite), design your betting scheme, and stick to it. If you play this game long enough, you will learn the futility of multiple bets, and that is how they get us with all the bets offered which is quite ingenious.

I hate to bring you fella craps players some bad news: It is impossible to have good results with multiple bets per roll whether place betting or come betting, the ole ugly is just too prevalent. Make one good bet(pass-odds is my favorite), design your betting scheme, and stick to it. If you play this game long enough, you will learn the futility of multiple bets, and that is how they get us with all the bets offered which is quite ingenious.

I hate to bring you fella craps players some bad news: It is impossible to have good results with multiple bets per roll whether place betting or come betting, the ole ugly is just too prevalent. Make one good bet(pass-odds is my favorite), design your betting scheme, and stick to it. If you play this game long enough, you will learn the futility of multiple bets, and that is how they get us with all the bets offered which is quite ingenious.

dwm, I think you're trying to tell us something, aren't you? ;>)

Sorry for the mulitple posts, my computer is not too swift. But my point hopefully will hit home..

Quote: dwm

Sorry for the mulitple posts, my computer is not too swift. But my point hopefully will hit home..

It happens sometimes, an admin will fix it. But your point is certainly well taken!

Quote: DrEntropy

It happens sometimes, an admin will fix it. But your point is certainly well taken!

True that. I hope you took it in the jesting manner it was intended. Your point is recognized, and probably a very good way to play. I just need more action, to my detriment.

Quote: dwm

I hate to bring you fella craps players some bad news: It is impossible to have good results with multiple bets per roll whether place betting or come betting, the ole ugly is just too prevalent. Make one good bet(pass-odds is my favorite), design your betting scheme, and stick to it. If you play this game long enough, you will learn the futility of multiple bets, and that is how they get us with all the bets offered which is quite ingenious.

This is just not true......If it were, than making multiple bets on the "DON'T" side would be a for sure money maker! But its not.....We have all had are numbers picked off time after time when betting on the "don't come"!

Now an argument could be made that making more than one bet on a craps table is like playing more than one hand at a blackjack table and that you are just decreasing variance by making multiple bets. And that deceased variance in a negative expectation game is not wise! This I can buy into.....But has nothing to do with the "ole ugly".

Just as casinos want to raise table limits they want people who choose to have "action" at all times rather than just the sporadic come-out rolls. That way the 'Seven' eats it way through bankrolls much faster.

Why is the 7 so evil? It's actually a timing thing.... we don't love the hell out of the 7(or 11) on the come out? We should also hate the 2-3-12 when playing the 'right way'? Sure we hate it afterwards, but then again, I love the 7 when I have don't bets working, so I love the 7(sometimes); it shouldn't get a bad rap.

Quote: vert1276

Now an argument could be made that making more than one bet on a craps table is like playing more than one hand at a blackjack table and that you are just decreasing variance by making multiple bets.

This is a great point. You can also look at it the other way around. You can maintain your variance and bet slower and lose less in the long run! For example, suppose you are playing a game with a 1% house edge, 100 hands per hour, $10 bets. Your standard deviation after 1 hour is $100.00. Your mean loss is $10. But now consider a slower game, with say 45 hands per hour, and the same 1% house edge. IF you bet $15 at the slower game, your standard deviation is still about $100, but your average loss is $6.75.

This applies to craps as well, since the come bet (basically, neglecting correlations) just speeds up the game, and perhaps it is better to just increase your pass line (after hitting max odds) instead!

My personal results with active play the latest 5 years confirms to me that one good pass odds bet is my best chance. Have had good wins with the typical place betting that most play, BUT bigger losses. Losing one bet is sure easier to recover from than losing 4-6 bets. I too was an action junkie but my bankroll suffered and knew that changes had to be made. Instead of all those place bets, why not just bump the odds bet which is the best bet in the house.

Have been playing this odds betting scheme that I posted on another thread already with excellent results to date and now I actually EXPECT to win. Before with multiple betting, I went thru some bad losing spurts and it was getting more and more difficult to win.

Anyway back to the pass-odds, simply pressing the odds bet one unit after a losing shooter using this simple negative progression, starting at $20 odds and max of $50 odds, and after a point winner returning to $20 odds and starting anew. If lose the $50 bet which means that 7 straight shooters fail to make any points, then start anew. Have not lost the $50 odds bet as yet, have gotten to the $50 level a couple of times in many hrs of play and always luckily won it, but certainly it is very possible to have a string of 7 consecutive shooters fail to make a point. Typical day is about 6 hrs of play, playing several sessions per day, and in a -$200 to +$200 range per session and playing with a $600 day bankroll. My daily wins have been averaging in the $100 to $200 range and have not experienced the usual bad spurt yet which is a pleasant change. Will let you know future results..

if youre gonna play just one point, why not instead play the dont?