Can a shooter get booted?
My question: If the floor has had enough of the soft tosses, could they boot the shooter in the middle of a hand? If so, then what happens?
Quote: slytherOn my recent trip to Vegas, I was playing craps at Casino Royale at 3am. A shooter was setting the dice (not taking a long time to do it) and soft lobbing them, never hitting the back wall. The stick kept reminding him to hit the wall, he would apologize, then soft toss again. Then the floor came over to provide a little heat. Eventually he 7'd and left, but I'm pretty sure he didn't hit the wall once.
My question: If the floor has had enough of the soft tosses, could they boot the shooter in the middle of a hand? If so, then what happens?
Yes. They can 86 a short shooter mid-roll. The dice would pass to the next person, who would finish the roll.
Quote: AyecarumbaYes. They can 86 a short shooter mid-roll. The dice would pass to the next person, who would finish the roll.
I think that would be pretty damn embarrassing for the shooter. What happens to his bet or bets that haven't been resolved?
Some people will get warned a few times and they don't really care if a few "suspicious" rolls go by, but if it looks intentional rather than just stupid or drunk they will indeed get rid of a jerk in the middle of a roll if they really have to. Other players can grumble a bit but if they want him out, he is out, mid-roll or not.
After a couple short rolls, the shooter got a warning from the base dealer. Then he threw short again, and got warned by the box. When he still came up short, the box told him he was done, and passed the dice.
Now the shooter was mad, and barked to the box, "Why don't you just relax?"
The box popped his cork: "Get off of my table!" The shooter looked like he'd been slapped in the face. A couple security guys hovered nearby, and he left without further incident.
Quote: AlanI think that would be pretty damn embarrassing for the shooter. What happens to his bet or bets that haven't been resolved?
They stay up with another shooter throwing, or can be taken down, except for pass line/come points.
Quote: Calder
Now the shooter was mad, and barked to the box, "Why don't you just relax?"
The box popped his cork: "Get off of my table!" The shooter looked like he'd been slapped in the face. A couple security guys hovered nearby, and he left without further incident.
Players can get very indignant when they find out they cannot run the game against the casino, make up the rules, or call the dice themselves.
Shock of all shocks, the casino actually has to run the game.
In terms of deciding to "no action" a player, that decision has no effect. A player can't sue because "They won't let me PLAY! And AFTER I had taken shoots at their workers!"
But In a decision to "strong arm" a misbehaving player (and yes, there are quite a few), that's very different.
Two nights ago, we had a guy, a real pompous clown, who kept:
1. Calling the cocktail waitress over by clapping his hands in her face;
2. Stacking up $375 or so in nickels - $5 chips - strategicly interlaced with green $25 chips, - where it would rise two feet over the betting spot and risk falling over, but he would refuse to let the dealer break down the stack to count it or color it up to a reasonable stack height;
3. trying to slow the game down to a complete crawl;
4. Openly trying to force the dealers to make mistakes (where he would say NOTHING if it were in his favor, but SCREAM if he thought he were short-changed.)
5. Trying to call, even scream, the dice roll number over the real stickman trying to do his job.
6. Repeatedly short-rolling the dice, and daring to be taken off the shooter's position (and he was)
And other anti-social acts deliberately implemented to slow and disrupt business, drive players away, - all because he got his "jollies" this way, and FELT THAT HE HAD A RIGHT TO PERPRETRATE THIS CRAP.
The fact of the matter that most shot-taking is NOT done by dealers (they're just trying to do their jobs- and enjoy their jobs with the players) - but by players who were, shall we say, not at all "innocent," (a good word) - getting their kicks by seeing what damage and vandalism they could get away with at a casino. For laughs and giggles and self-aggrandisement.
As for the old lady picking up a voucher, the casino might look at it like someone passing by a BJ table, then taking chips from a player's table position of a someone who had gone to the restroom. What if someone accidentally dropped a cash-out voucher and went back for it? The simple policy of "If it ain't mine, I don't want it" is gone from the minds and behavior of all too many players.
It's sometimes a free-for-all: "any shit I can get away with is okay," - and any reasonable curbs put on me to behave like an adult in a public place - no less legally - is a conspiratorial and criminal act perpretrated by casino employees.
No so.
If I see something of monetary value (note that that is the status) which isn't mine, it doesn't matter if it's on a table or on the floor, if I make a grab for it, I've done some sort of wrong. If you try to apply an arbitrary age limit or dollar amount ("Well..if it's THIS amount or the person is THAT OLD".....) you introduce double standards.
I do think it is petty - and not in the spirit of the law - to arrest a little old lady for a 5c voucher. But you can ask, "ma'am, can you please drop off the lost voucher at security or with a slot attendant instead of putting it in your pocket?" They usually have the player's card number attached to that session's voucher.
Another problem with the lost vouchers are the scavengers who are roaming around just trying to make enough money for a hit of Meth. Certainly not in the case of this Grandma. But scavengers are trolls, and casinos are trying to set up policies that stops any sort of unauthorized cash grab - against other players who lost an item or against the casino - and this is met with whining resistance by all too many players and their attitudes. In fact, this view makes absolutely no sense to many players.
I was at a BJ table with a guy like that. I was tempted to bump the table, but I held back.Quote: Paigowdan2. Stacking up $375 or so in nickels - $5 chips - strategicly interlaced with green $25 chips, - where it would rise two feet over the betting spot and risk falling over, but he would refuse to let the dealer break down the stack to count it or color it up to a reasonable stack height;
When he won, the dealer would count it down, and pay him. Then the player would set up the tall rainbow stack again.
If he lost, the entire stack went into the rack.
More than once, when counting before paying, the stack was more than the $500 table limit, and he only got $500. I'm sure that some of his lost bets were more than $500. I smiled and thought, Next time don't be a dick.
Sorry Dan. That's not the same.Quote: PaigowdanAs for the old lady picking up a voucher, the casino might look at it like someone passing by a BJ table, then taking chips from a player's table position of a someone who had gone to the restroom.
There is a presumption that chips left on a table will be looked after by the dealer.
Picking up a slot voucher is like picking a quarter up off the floor. Yeah, according to the rules, the quarter, like the voucher, belongs to the casino. Not so for the bathroom break guy's chips. And if someone did get caught sniping chips, I believe it's a different law with more stringent punishment.
Yee-gads!
Second thing here Dave.....
Picking up a voucher is NOT like picking up a quarter off the floor. It's attached to a player's session/machine number with surveillance footage,- and what if it's for real money, and you get busted at the redemption machine when the player made a "lost voucher" claim?
Let me propose a "Grand Casino Experiment Challenge" of this nature - similar to "Bait Car" on TruTV
In a separate post, with a poll.
There seems to be some GRAY AREA - very variable - amoung players and dealers as to what is "okay."
Here Goes...see the new post.
Quote: PaigowdanThey stay up with another shooter throwing, or can be taken down, except for pass line/come points.
When a player is requested to take over someone else's hand midway through, do they get to shoot again after seven-out or do the dice pass? In other words, does the next player get 1/2 a hand or 1 1/2 hands?
Quote: CalderArguing about 5-cent voucher on the floor seems tangential to the point of how a casino handles troublesome patrons.
Very true, certainly in comparison to the player we had the other night.
But if you work as a casino worker (or as a bank teller), you think of the old adage, "thief for a dime, thief for a dollar."
You look at it in Black and White. If you're picking up vouchers off the floor for five cents, you are arguably a scavanger.
Quote: MathExtremistWhen a player is requested to take over someone else's hand midway through, do they get to shoot again after seven-out or do the dice pass? In other words, does the next player get 1/2 a hand or 1 1/2 hands?
Generally yes, depending on the Boxman's call on it.
Yeah, well, he was drunk and being a dick, so...Quote: PaigowdanDave - the casino is supposed to count down ANY bet that may be over the table limit, and return ANYTHING over the table limit back to the player on a loss.
Yee-gads!
Since there is that rule/law that states that money found in a casino is the casino's property, then picking up a quarter is like picking up a voucher.Quote: PaigowdanSecond thing here Dave.....
Picking up a voucher is NOT like picking up a quarter off the floor. It's attached to a player's session/machine number with surveillance footage,- and what if it's for real money, and you get busted at the redemption machine when the player made a "lost voucher" claim?
BTW: Not all vouchers are tied to a player account. There are LOTS of players that don't have/use a player card.
Quote: CalderAt my local table, a boxman once booted a short roller from the game.
After a couple short rolls, the shooter got a warning from the base dealer. Then he threw short again, and got warned by the box. When he still came up short, the box told him he was done, and passed the dice.
Now the shooter was mad, and barked to the box, "Why don't you just relax?"
The box popped his cork: "Get off of my table!" The shooter looked like he'd been slapped in the face. A couple security guys hovered nearby, and he left without further incident.
That shooter is lucky he didn't do this back in the day or else the casino might have exited him from the place off his feet and used his head to open the door. I've seen the same thing at the poker table, guy was told several times that he had to show his entire stack and not hide bigger cheques behind smaller ones. When the dealer tells you there is a rule like hitting the back wall, hit the back wall. Sheeese.
Quote: MathExtremistWhen a player is requested to take over someone else's hand midway through, do they get to shoot again after seven-out or do the dice pass? In other words, does the next player get 1/2 a hand or 1 1/2 hands?
Interesting question. My guess is if he makes the point dice pass the first 7-out. If he 7-outs the idiot's roll he gets to shoot for himself. Anyone else?
Quote: AZDuffmanInteresting question. My guess is if he makes the point dice pass the first 7-out. If he 7-outs the idiot's roll he gets to shoot for himself. Anyone else?
That sounds fair... which probably means it isn't the case.
Quote: slytherOn my recent trip to Vegas, I was playing craps at Casino Royale at 3am. A shooter was setting the dice (not taking a long time to do it) and soft lobbing them, never hitting the back wall. The stick kept reminding him to hit the wall, he would apologize, then soft toss again. Then the floor came over to provide a little heat. Eventually he 7'd and left, but I'm pretty sure he didn't hit the wall once.
My question: If the floor has had enough of the soft tosses, could they boot the shooter in the middle of a hand? If so, then what happens?
I've see the box take the dice away from a Shooter at Paris, Golden Gate and Imperial Palace in Vegas. All three times, the box was, in my opinion, very intent on giving the shooter, the courtesy, of hitting the back wall. The shooters were warned 3 maybe 4 times , then the dice were taken and passed forward.
I do agree that most times the Box Heat is an attempt to "shake" the Shooter who is on a good roll, but these 3 times the Shooter was in error.
Funny, the one time at Paris, the Shooter had made 3 of the firebet, set the 4th and the chump who was passed the dice, was very inexperienced, just flung the dice with his first shot and made the 4th of the fire. Cool, but, he did did a PSO to finish that hand, and then of course, did a PSO on his own.
The question becomes, why as a shooter, do stupid things like short rolls, and the rest of us, get the heat. Probably the same moron, when we were all in school, did the same kind of thing and the entire class suffered. Back then we could get our licks in during gym class. Too bad no gym classes today.
Eagledice
That's what I would say. Of course, if it was a table with a Fire Bet, I'd object if I didn't get my own full roll.Quote: AZDuffmanInteresting question. My guess is if he makes the point dice pass the first 7-out. If he 7-outs the idiot's roll he gets to shoot for himself. Anyone else?
What's a "PSO" ?Quote: eagledice...Cool, but, he did did a PSO to finish that hand, and then of course, did a PSO on his own.
Quote: slytherOn my recent trip to Vegas, I was playing craps at Casino Royale at 3am. A shooter was setting the dice (not taking a long time to do it) and soft lobbing them, never hitting the back wall. The stick kept reminding him to hit the wall, he would apologize, then soft toss again. Then the floor came over to provide a little heat. Eventually he 7'd and left, but I'm pretty sure he didn't hit the wall once.
My question: If the floor has had enough of the soft tosses, could they boot the shooter in the middle of a hand? If so, then what happens?
This happened a couple of weeks ago at the local casino... dice were taken from shooter for not hitting the back wall repeatedly; he got into a fairly bad argument with the pit boss, who backed up the boxwoman. Of course the next shooter promptly sevenned out. He knew what he was doing and was just testing the box's patience.
A couple of side issues in this thread:
Quote: DJTeddyBearYeah, well, he was drunk and being a dick, so...
If he was being that much of a douchebag, the responsible thing would have been to escort him to his room (if he was staying there) or out the door.
Quote: MathExtremistWhen a player is requested to take over someone else's hand midway through, do they get to shoot again after seven-out or do the dice pass? In other words, does the next player get 1/2 a hand or 1 1/2 hands?
I saw something like this once at Binion's. The shooter didn't have the dice taken away, he voluntarily left in the middle of his roll - it could have been at the come-out, if that makes a difference. The "replacement" shooter made a couple of points of her own, then 7'd out. She DID NOT retain the dice for another roll, they passed it along. This actually makes more sense to me, since no one shoots twice in a row under ordinary circumstances (unless they're the only available roller), though I'm not philosophically opposed to doing it the other way.
Quote: eaglediceI've see the box take the dice away from a Shooter at Paris, Golden Gate and Imperial Palace in Vegas. All three times, the box was, in my opinion, very intent on giving the shooter, the courtesy, of hitting the back wall. The shooters were warned 3 maybe 4 times , then the dice were taken and passed forward.
Some shooters have thick heads and think they are playing "Yahtzee" and not craps. At the MC Nights I often repeadatly have to tell people (almost always women) that they may only handle the dice with one hand. I have the issue of "it is for fun" but like to keep it somewhat real for both effect and other "real" players want a "real" game. I think only once I gave up telling a woman she was handling them wrong-if it was a real casino that night I would have told her "you're done shooting."
What is so hard about:
1. One hand only
2. If you set them, take less then 5 seconds to do so (for those of you in Rio Linda, oppisite sides add to 7)
3. Hit the back wall
4. Attempt all of the above w/o knocking over half the stacks on the table
Me and a couple other young guys (I'm 28, they were in their 20's) were shooting craps.
One guy proceeds to walk up and start betting heavy on the hard ways and pressing...
Shooter hits a hard 8, guy presses it to $200, couple minutes later, HARD 8! Guy gets $1800 and tosses the shooter a black cheque. Pitboss (lady) walks over (because of the $1800 black out) and tells the shooter "shoot the dice right!"...we all kinda look around like WTF??? Cuz he wasn't hitting working stacks, nor missing the backwall...so another guy (in no way related to the shooter; not the big better) says "What do you mean shoot them RIGHT? We're not causing any trouble, we're just playing craps."
Pitboss FLIES off the handle.. "You're done! Leave my table!" Kid just looks at her and says "Whatever lady"
At which point, the shooter (after just making his point of hard 8) colors up, as do the rest of us...
Seriously, this was on a GRAVEYARD crew at a dead locals casino (they had outside stick mind you; stupid I know) so it basically KILLED the table, and stayed empty after that, and probably closed short after..
Funny for us, since we MADE money...stupid for the casino because we would have probably pissed it all back, had the pitboss not said anything...
Makes me wonder...if these people WEREN'T working in a casino...what WOULD they be doing?
Quote: TIMSPEEDI had a funny thing happen the other night...
Me and a couple other young guys (I'm 28, they were in their 20's) were shooting craps.
One guy proceeds to walk up and start betting heavy on the hard ways and pressing...
Shooter hits a hard 8, guy presses it to $200, couple minutes later, HARD 8! Guy gets $1800 and tosses the shooter a black cheque. Pitboss (lady) walks over (because of the $1800 black out) and tells the shooter "shoot the dice right!"...we all kinda look around like WTF??? Cuz he wasn't hitting working stacks, nor missing the backwall...so another guy (in no way related to the shooter; not the big better) says "What do you mean shoot them RIGHT? We're not causing any trouble, we're just playing craps."
Pitboss FLIES off the handle.. "You're done! Leave my table!" Kid just looks at her and says "Whatever lady"
At which point, the shooter (after just making his point of hard 8) colors up, as do the rest of us...
Seriously, this was on a GRAVEYARD crew at a dead locals casino (they had outside stick mind you; stupid I know) so it basically KILLED the table, and stayed empty after that, and probably closed short after..
Funny for us, since we MADE money...stupid for the casino because we would have probably pissed it all back, had the pitboss not said anything...
Makes me wonder...if these people WEREN'T working in a casino...what WOULD they be doing?
Was she hot?
You should put that post in a letter to the casino management. Be sure to include the note that you probably would have given most of it back.
I'm not saying it will help things, but it can't hurt.
Quote: PaigowdanIf I see something of monetary value (note that that is the status) which isn't mine, it doesn't matter if it's on a table or on the floor, if I make a grab for it, I've done some sort of wrong. If you try to apply an arbitrary age limit or dollar amount ("Well..if it's THIS amount or the person is THAT OLD".....) you introduce double standards.
So even an empty soda can on the floor has to stay there because the aluminum has some monetary value at the recycle center and the owner may be coming back for it. Even scrap paper has value. A butt may still have a couple of puffs left when it was put out. I guess the casino saves on janitors when the trash has to be left on the floor in case the owners come back to claim it.
Quote: AZDuffman
What is so hard about:
1. One hand only
2. If you set them, take less then 5 seconds to do so (for those of you in Rio Linda, oppisite sides add to 7)
3. Hit the back wall
4. Attempt all of the above w/o knocking over half the stacks on the table
Good call.
In my experience, most shooters are their own worst enemy. If you want to set the dice, do it quickly. It's infuriating to wait for an idiot to pick up each die individually and peer at it to see where the numbers are. On every roll. All dice are the same. Learn how to set quickly! I will look at the position of the dice in the centre, and know what rotations to make before they are even pushed out to me. Two seconds is enough to set the dice every time.
A good stickman will recognize what a setter does, and pre-set the dice before sending them out - saving even more time. I don't know, but I would suggest that most casinos dislike setting not because of possible player advantage, but because of the time wasted by slow setters.
So if I count it up right that was four short rolls with three warnings. It seems at no time did the shooter say "sorry" or "I'll try" and I doubt he dropped a tip either.Quote: CalderAfter a couple short rolls, the shooter got a warning from the base dealer. Then he threw short again, and got warned by the box. When he still came up short, the box told him he was done, and passed the dice.
So you tell me. Just how many warnings should there be? Four, Five? There comes a time for the player to "straighten up and fly right". And once the Box said "pass the dice"... the player should keep his yap shut.
Now should the Box have lost it that way? No. However, there simply does come a time when its not just the crew that wants the game run correctly. The players get tired of troublesome jerks. Sure its a place of merriment and alcohol is in use and girlfriends are nearby and have to be impressed but its a craps game and there just comes a time when the shooter has to realize that the other players like to see the dice tumble and bounce and hit that far wall and bounce some more. If you are too tired or too drunk to hit the wall then perhaps its time you hit the showers or switched to a dumb slot machine.
An occasional short roll or an occasional man overboard is okay. Hitting the stickman is not okay and repeatedly failing to hit that darned back wall is simply not right. The crew members do their job by giving a warning, the shooter should do his job by throwing them harder and perhaps drinking less booze next time.
Quote: FleaStiffSo you tell me.
I was responding to the OP's question; I have no problems with the box's actions. The shooter was an idiot.
Yes, clearly. Though I do think the Box should have kept his cool while 86ing the guy. The main thing is that the shooter had had a number of warnings and he ran out of them particularly once he opened his yap.Quote: CalderThe shooter was an idiot.
As for the "next short roll is a no roll"... well, he probably wanted the woman to lose by then so he will call it Seven Out.
