A new kind of crap game, Scossa™ is coming to Las Vegas. .

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May 14th, 2011 at 1:03:52 PM permalink

Interesting concept for a dice game. Hop bets with the lowest house edge at 2.78%.
Will have to wait to see what the betting limits are.

Quote: AZDuffman
And for those on here, what is the "true-odds" of 7-7-7. I get it happening .45% of the time, so 222-1 is true odds? Or is it?

chances are 1 in 216 [(1/6)*(1/6)*(1/6)]
odds are 215 to 1 for any 3 rolls.

Theoretical probability:
The average number of rolls (mean) to see a run of 3 Sevens is 258.
variance = 65370
st dev = 255.6756

Mode is 3 rolls
cumulative frequencies:
Median is 180 rolls (50.186532%)
283 rolls or less / 66.704178% (2 out of 3)
591 rolls or less / 90.018007% (9 out of 10)
768 rolls or less / 95.004684% (19 out of 20)
1180 rolls or less / 99.002909% (99 out of 100)

results from computer simulation
Trials                 1,000,000 runs of 3 Sevens 
minimum value:                3.00
median:                     179.00
maximum value:             3775.00
mean value:                 257.69
sample variance (n):      65272.53
sample variance (n-1):    65272.59
sample std dev (n):         255.48
sample std dev (n-1):       255.49

Hate to be the one that waited 3,775 rolls to see a run of 3 sevens!

The relative frequency graph of the distribution.

If the payouts are as listed in another post, here are the edge and standard deviation for each bet

bet	(house pays) to 1	prob	1 in	Odds to 1	edge	stdev per $ bet
Triple Seven	200	(6/36)^3	216	215	-0.069444	13.644623
7	4.5	6/36	6	5	-0.083333	2.049729
range	1.5	14/36	2.571	1.571	-0.027778	1.218745
all hardways (any pair)	34	1/36	36	35	-0.027778	5.751744
hardway splits	16	2/36	18	17	-0.055556	3.894044
3 or 11	16	2/36	18	17	-0.055556	3.894044
inside split bets	4	7/36	5.143	4.143	-0.027778	1.978862
6 or 8	6	5/36	7.2	6.2	-0.027778	2.420814
5 or 9	7.5	4/36	9	8	-0.055556	2.671292
4 or 10	10	3/36	12	11	-0.083333	3.040239

According to their information card. (Scossa™)
Payoffs:
Straight number bets
7 ………...… pays 9 to 2*
2 or 12 …… pays 34 to 1
6 or 8 …….. pays 6 to 1
3 or 11 …… pays 16 to 1
5 or 9 …….. pays 15 to 2*
4 or 10 …… pays 10 to 1

Range bets
(3-4-5-6 ) (8-9-10-11) ... pays 3 to 2*

Inside splits bets …...… pays 4 to 1
Hard Way bets ……. pays 34 to 1
Hard Way Split bets …. pays 16 to 1

Triple Seven Bonus bet . pays 200 to 1
Lucky 7 for Dealer ….. pays 9 to 2*

Split Bets - You win if the result of the dice is either of the straight numbers adjacent to the line you placed your wager on. (i.e. 7 or 2, 6 or 3, 5 or 4, 7 or 12, 8 or 11, 9 or 10)
Hard Way Split Bets - You win if the result of the dice is either of the Hard Way numbers adjacent to the line you placed your wager on. (i.e. 2 or hard 4, hard 4 or hard 6, hard 6 or hard 8, hard 8 or hard 10, hard 10 or 12)

cclub79

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May 14th, 2011 at 4:31:02 PM permalink

If you ask me, ~7% isn't horrible for a 200 to 1 payoff.

FleaStiff

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May 15th, 2011 at 6:25:36 AM permalink

In roulette your guess is 1-36, 0,00.
In this craps variant its 2-12.
That is already more appealing to the novice player.

thecesspit

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May 15th, 2011 at 6:37:33 AM permalink

Quote: cclub79
If you ask me, ~7% isn't horrible for a 200 to 1 payoff.

The single hardways at 34 to 1 seem reasonable as well. 2.7% edge for something that's similar to a number straight up at roulette.

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

guido111

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May 15th, 2011 at 3:26:08 PM permalink

Quote: thecesspit
The single hardways at 34 to 1 seem reasonable as well. 2.7% edge for something that's similar to a number straight up at roulette.

Exactly.
Easier to overcome a 2.78% edge (stdev of 5.75) at 34 to 1 than a 13.89% edge at 30 to 1 or even worse at 30 for 1.

00 roulette edge is 5.26% (2/38) at 35 to 1 payout. (stdev of 5.76)
0 roulette edge is 2.70% (1/37) at 35 to 1 payout. (stdev of 5.84)

All 6 hardways (pairs) have the same frequency as the Seven on any 1 roll. (6/36) Of course you would need more bets to cover all the hardways.

I have set up an older version of WinCraps to play most all the bets (can not setup the 3 7s in a row) and payouts.
Very interesting style of play.
IMO the game should crash and burn since every bet is resolved on each roll causing most players to lose very, very fast. Sure there will be winners, but a roulette style craps game???
I will still try it out next month.

Wizard
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May 17th, 2011 at 7:27:49 PM permalink

I just saw the game today. Please preview my new Scossa page. I welcome all comments. In particular, I imagine some might disagree over my house edge on the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

guido111

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May 17th, 2011 at 7:51:47 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
I just saw the game today. Please preview my new Scossa page. I welcome all comments. In particular, I imagine some might disagree over my house edge on the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet.

Too bad you did not have a chance to play the game.
Did the table or did you ask about the table limits?

Your new page has a typo...
"There are a host of best available."

Only because it read funny,
I think "best" is better with "bets"

cclub79

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May 17th, 2011 at 7:55:37 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
I just saw the game today. Please preview my new Scossa page. I welcome all comments. In particular, I imagine some might disagree over my house edge on the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet.

Do you agree that the 7% HE for the 200:1 payoff is actually pretty low, especially as table games go? Such a large Standard Deviation.

DJTeddyBear

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May 17th, 2011 at 8:09:10 PM permalink

OK. I'll bite. I object to the way the Lucky 7 for the Dealer bet is presented in the chart. I feel that the chart should show the beneficiary's perspective. You could then put in the asterisk to say the that the payoff goes to the dealer - although that should be obvious.

Are there half dollars or pink chips on the table? Or do some bets need to be in $2 units to avoid shrinkage?

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Wizard
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May 17th, 2011 at 8:20:40 PM permalink

Thanks for the typo corrections.

I just added scans of the rule card, which suggest that players bet in increments of $2 on the bets that pay "to 2," for example 3 to 2. I did not look at the chips in the rack, but probably the usual $1, $5, $25, $100, and maybe $500.

Okay, one objection is noted over the 100% house edge on the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet. I'm pretty sure PaiGowDan would object too. To be honest, I think it is too much of a tip shakedown, but don't want to say that on the official page.

Yes, I agree that a 6.9% house edge on a 200-1 shot is comparatively a good bet. I get the game maker credit for that.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

DJTeddyBear

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May 18th, 2011 at 4:23:20 AM permalink

Regarding the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet -

I agree that you shouldn't call it a 'shakedown' on the official page - although that's exactly what it is.

However, I find it wierd. Can't player make any of the other bets for the dealers? Why is there this one extra betting zone? I can't think of any reason, except for the purpose of a sanctioned shakedown.

The big question is "Why?"

I think I have an answer. I it were me, I would change the chart to show the beneficiary's perspective, as I already suggested, but make the asterisk comment read:

Since the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet payoff is identical to the straight-up 7, with the exception that the win is paid directly to the dealers, it would appear that the inventor is trying to encourage the dealer bet, so that the dealers feel more positive about the game, and perhaps do a better job of encouraging gamblers to play it.

Anyway, that's what I think. Your mileage may vary.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

odiousgambit

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May 18th, 2011 at 4:27:01 AM permalink

Quote:
Compared to craps, the odds are a lot better on the exotic bets.

Seems to me you might as well also mention that the HE is in many cases lower than you get with typical American roulette.

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

cclub79

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May 18th, 2011 at 4:54:18 AM permalink

Quote: DJTeddyBear
Regarding the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet -

I agree that you shouldn't call it a 'shakedown' on the official page - although that's exactly what it is.

However, I find it wierd. Can't player make any of the other bets for the dealers? Why is there this one extra betting zone? I can't think of any reason, except for the purpose of a sanctioned shakedown.

The big question is "Why?"

I think I have an answer. I it were me, I would change the chart to show the beneficiary's perspective, as I already suggested, but make the asterisk comment read:

Since the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet payoff is identical to the straight-up 7, with the exception that the win is paid directly to the dealers, it would appear that the inventor is trying to encourage the dealer bet, so that the dealers feel more positive about the game, and perhaps do a better job of encouraging gamblers to play it.

Anyway, that's what I think. Your mileage may vary.

I'm actually surprised that it took this long to incorporate a dealer bet onto the felt of any game. I suppose a newbie could play there, place some bets for the dealer, then go to craps and not place any, thinking "Well I guess they don't want any tips on this game...oh well."

Wizard
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May 18th, 2011 at 5:46:52 AM permalink

Quote: DJTeddyBear
Regarding the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet -

I agree that you shouldn't call it a 'shakedown' on the official page - although that's exactly what it is.

However, I find it wierd. Can't player make any of the other bets for the dealers? Why is there this one extra betting zone? I can't think of any reason, except for the purpose of a sanctioned shakedown.

Yes, there is a big betting area for the "lucky 7 for the dealer bet." It is a long band within reach of every player, kind of like the pass line in craps. I feel about this how I first felt about tip jars at fast food places. Alas, those have become so common that I concede I've lost the fight on those, as I toss in my change.

Indeed, getting the dealers to support a new game is very important. If they don't get tipped as well as the average game, which they usually don't, they will be sourpusses and put down the game to players. I'm quite sure the game inventor knew this, and put that bet in there to show he is at least trying to support the dealers. However, I am a player advocate, so have to address my disapproval somehow.

Here is my current wording:

Quote: wizard
Win of 9 to 2 is paid to the dealer. So, the expected return is -2.78% if you count the tip. However, I have traditionally defined the win as what the player gets. For example, in games with an "envy bonus," I count what the player making the bet may win based on the cards of other players, not what other players may win from him. In this case, the player never wins this tip bet made for the dealer, thus the pay is -1, and the expected return is -100%.

I'm not saying you shouldn't tip the dealer, but I do think this designated bet for tips is a bit egregious.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Nareed

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May 18th, 2011 at 6:55:20 AM permalink

Quote: cclub79
I'm actually surprised that it took this long to incorporate a dealer bet onto the felt of any game.

Not quite the same thing, but Rapid Craps has 1) a tip button and 2) dealer chips to palce bets for the dealers.

Quote:
I suppose a newbie could play there, place some bets for the dealer, then go to craps and not place any, thinking "Well I guess they don't want any tips on this game...oh well."

Nasty. Alas, all too likely to be true...

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

Ayecarumba

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May 18th, 2011 at 11:32:38 AM permalink

Quote: Wizard
Yes, there is a big betting area for the "lucky 7 for the dealer bet."

I would suggest that the "Luck 7 for Dealer" be removed from your table. Even though it is a space on the layout, it is only a tip to the dealer, with no return to the player.

Questions:

-- Could the player make a bet, "for the boys" on any other area? I doubt the dealer would object.

-- Is the Triple seven bet only available when a shooter is "coming out" for the first time, like the "Fire" bet? What if someone wants to bet it after the first or second 7 has already rolled, anticipating that the trend will continue to 4 or 5 in a row?

I'm curious to see how the dealer is expected to handle security to keep scumbags from past posting? there are alot of things to watch for one guy, notably the dice being handled by the player, and the locked in bets on the layout... at the same time.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci

DJTeddyBear

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May 18th, 2011 at 11:44:39 AM permalink

Quote: Ayecarumba
What if someone wants to bet it after the first or second 7 has already rolled, anticipating that the trend will continue to 4 or 5 in a row?

I had to deal with this very question with my Hit It Again Roulette bet. I suspect that they have an acrylic cover to protect the bets in place, allowing people to get in on it, as you suggest.

Quote: Ayecarumba
I'm curious to see how the dealer is expected to handle security to keep scumbags from past posting? there are alot of things to watch for one guy, notably the dice being handled by the player, and the locked in bets on the layout... at the same time.

Except for the Triple 7, they are all one roll bets.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

TinhornGambler

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May 18th, 2011 at 8:01:28 PM permalink

Scossa™
The table will use 8 different (non denomination) color chips.
(Similar principle to roulette chips.)

The three Seven bet can be made anytime.
Once a Seven is rolled with that bet in action it gets a lammer button 1, or/and 2, depending on the amount of consecutive Sevens that bet was in action for.

The difficulties in marking the number thrown, payoffs, getting dice to shooters, and handling of bets will be a big challenge. (Layout to spread out.)
I expect it to a very SLOW process.

Initially …. I expect the game to be simplified with all the same denomination chips of $1. With $5 minimums spread. And $10 maximum bets on straight bets, split bets, etc.

I believe the game will take more than one dealer and pit eyes to maintain control, and avoid major mistakes … plus instruct customers in proper betting.

Another quirk …. when a 2, 3 or 12 is rolled the dice pass to the next shooter instead of the normal Seven-out principle.

guido111

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May 18th, 2011 at 9:58:57 PM permalink

Quote: TinhornGambler
Scossa™
Another quirk …. when a 2, 3 or 12 is rolled the dice pass to the next shooter instead of the normal Seven-out principle.

That brings up the question of the length of a shooters hand in Scossa.
They should have called it "Dice Roulette" IMO.

This is a classic negative binomial distribution question.
How many dice rolls until the shooter rolls either a 2 or 3 or 12?
Number of failures before a success, success being "one" 2,3 or 12. Shooter losses dice.

mean = (s/p) s= number of successes = 1; p = 4/36
mean = 1/(4/36) = 9
variance = 72
more about negative binomial distribution in a thread HERE

The Wizard may make a table for the expected length of the shooters hand so I just show a snap shot of mine from Excel.
The median is 6. Just as the shooters length in regular craps.
1 out of 10 will get past 20 rolls
1 out of 100 will get past 40 rolls

Paigowdan

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May 18th, 2011 at 10:25:28 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard

Okay, one objection is noted over the 100% house edge on the "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet. I'm pretty sure PaiGowDan would object too. To be honest, I think it is too much of a tip shakedown, but don't want to say that on the official page.

Yes, I agree that a 6.9% house edge on a 200-1 shot is comparatively a good bet. I get the game maker credit for that.

Anything written on a table game layout "For the dealer," [or has a sugary image of a heart, etc.] is an open shakedown that annoys players - and is counter-productive for the dealers, where the dealers just "look bad" and greedy by its presence. Also believed is that it is an attempt by the game designer or distributor to get the dealers to "pitch" that particular new game to casino guests. Absolutely egregious, - just shameless.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

DJTeddyBear

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May 19th, 2011 at 4:39:05 AM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Also believed is that it is an attempt by the game designer or distributor to get the dealers to "pitch" that particular new game to casino guests. Absolutely egregious, - just shameless.

I said the same thing. But as a dealer, do you think it will backfire? Do you think dealers will NOT promote the game properly, because of that greedy looking betting zone?

Also, what do you think of this comment:

Quote: cclub79
I suppose a newbie could play there, place some bets for the dealer, then go to craps and not place any, thinking "Well I guess they don't want any tips on this game...oh well."

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Wizard
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May 19th, 2011 at 6:41:23 AM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Anything written on a table game layout "For the dealer," [or has a sugary image of a heart, etc.] is an open shakedown that annoys players - and is counter-productive for the dealers, where the dealers just "look bad" and greedy by its presence. Also believed is that it is an attempt by the game designer or distributor to get the dealers to "pitch" that particular new game to casino guests. Absolutely egregious, - just shameless.

I'm proud of you Dan! I thought, as a dealer, you would have liked the tip zone. That makes me feel better about taking a stand against it on my page.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Paigowdan

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May 19th, 2011 at 8:36:11 AM permalink

1. As a dealer, the layout tip request backfires a bit because if it is EVER mentioned (and it will be), it is always viewed as an open and undeniable solicitation - which it is. - Tacky at best, clawing and annoying at worst. The players can't get out from under "the pitch" just staring at them from the layout. It's wearysome. A big no-no. Can't deny it.

2. Players may tip on any bet, or just hand in a tip as is, anyway. NO tip prompt works better than just being friendly and sharing the winner's joy. We Don't even clear our throat on a player's win....

3. Newbie players can be completely unaware of tipping procedures, much in the same way a new traveler doesn't know to leave a tip on the dresser for housekeeping upon departure. And this is simply an innocent ignorance, nothing to have any problem with. If they play long enough, they pick up the rituals.

Newbies probably will not think "I guess they don't want tips here," because they will at least occasionally see other players throw in tips on ANY game if they play for any length of time, regardless of printed solicitations.

At Fiesta, when we brought in a new progressive bet on a certain table, we were initially told by the shift manager that a "percentage of the progressive action" will be allocated to the dealers' tip pool periodically from it. WE thought various things and had various reactions:
1. "They're trying to force us to push the game!"
2. "The game still sucks! It's GOT TO - if they got to PAY us extra to like it!"
3. "The Anti-Steve Wynn!"
4. "That's a lie - they will end up NOT cutting us in!" - which turned out to be the case.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Nareed

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May 19th, 2011 at 8:40:29 AM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Anything written on a table game layout "For the dealer," [or has a sugary image of a heart, etc.] is an open shakedown that annoys players - and is counter-productive for the dealers, where the dealers just "look bad" and greedy by its presence.

Everyone knows, or should know, that when inviting people to a celebration like a wedding or a birthday party, it is poor manners to ask for presents. But everyone also knows it is poor manners to attend such an event without a present.

This has always struck me as hypocritical (surprise!) I don't mind, for instance, people who include their registry info on a wedding invitation. It spares me the trouble of calling them to find out where they're registered. I do mind when poeple maximize invites for the sake of presents. One common tactic these days is to invite some people, usually distant or proffessional acquaintances, just for the coffee and dessert after the reception. That's a shakedown.

So how does this translate to the gaming tables? Everyone should know dealers work for tips, and that good service, or even adequate service, ought to be tipped. But does everyone know? I'm sure some people don't know. I'm even more certain a lot of people don't care. So adding a tipping option at the table, I think, is comaprable to adding registry info on an invitation.

I liked the tipping buttong and dealer chips ($1) on Rapid Craps, for example. it made tipping the dealers easier, and provided for both straight-up tips and bet tips. I didn't mind when a dealer would loudly thank a palyer for a tip, etiher.

But I am concerned about the possibility that players will tip, if at all, only at games that have a tipping option, and not at all in other games. perhaps a discrete circle next tot he betting circles could be established witht he word "TIP", or maybe the area by the dealer could have a small square marked "TIPS." I mean this in all games, and granted it would be tough to do in craps and roulette, to mention just two. but it would be a more subtle reminder to tip the dealer.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

Paradigm

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May 19th, 2011 at 8:53:48 AM permalink

I agree with Dan and I think a blatant dealer tip spot on the layout is ridiculous. I would say that part of game design is to see if there is anyway to get dollar cheques into the hands of the players without them having to ask for them.

It seems that in BJ, some players will tip with the dollars they receive on a 3:2 Blackjack hand....or at least there is a better chance of that happening with white chips in their stack.

So incorporating payouts like "9 to 2" in the game (or better yet a 7 to 5 payout), should provide the players with enough "tip ammunition" to allow them to tip if they chose.

Designated tipping areas aren't going to work well due to backlash. Some payouts designed to provide singles to the players, this I think is something a game designer should work hard to try and incorporate into a new game concept which will at least give players "loose change" with which to tip.

Paigowdan

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May 19th, 2011 at 9:00:16 AM permalink

This is truly a service industry issue.
My feeling is that if Waiters, Bell Hops, Valets, etc., don't go around wearing buttons that say "Remember to tip me! [insert smiley face or heart]" then neither should dealers.

And the reason why they don't is because:
1. Tipping is unmentionable common knowledge,
2. Tipping is TRULY optional, and
3. It would produce more flak and resistance than compliance - indeed it would produce more defiance than compliance.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

DJTeddyBear

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May 19th, 2011 at 9:06:07 AM permalink

Tipping buttons in RapidCraps and RapidRoulette are a different story, since there is no other way to tip, other than a direct tip when cashing out. And even then, they are easily overlooked. This "lucky 7 for the dealer" bet is an are that extends the entire length of the table, and as such, is nothing but a shakedown.

The "tip square" is an interesting idea, however, I think that a dealer tapping the chips on the table before slipping them into the tip box is more than enough reminder. I also find it cute that when asked, a dealer always says that it's to alert security that it's really a tip going into the tip box. The reality is, that knocking is designed to remind the players to tip, while using that bullshit about security as the 'reason'.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Nareed

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May 19th, 2011 at 9:19:17 AM permalink

Ok. In restaurants often the menus state "gratuity not included." How about adding that line to the cards at the table that have payouts and/or rules? Of course, some people are too dense even for that...

There was an old joke, what sense do most people lack? Common sense. Common knowledge is lacking, too. In Vegas particularly you're expected to tip enarly everyone you come accross ;) Seriously, a lot of epople don't know about tipping the dealers. There are travel guides available that mention this, but not everyone reads them. On the Hoover Dam tour I took, I wasn't sure whether or not to tip the bus driver/tour guide. Among her spiel, she mentioned tips and a long list of people to tip, including her.

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

Nareed

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May 19th, 2011 at 9:22:25 AM permalink

Quote: DJTeddyBear
The "tip square" is an interesting idea, however, I think that a dealer tapping the chips on the table before slipping them into the tip box is more than enough reminder.

Another thing is sometimes dealers don't understand I'm tipping them. maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'll place one or two red chips near the dealer and say "This is for you." A tipping spot would be more convenient.

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Paigowdan

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May 19th, 2011 at 12:51:47 PM permalink

Quote: DJTeddyBear
I think that a dealer tapping the chips on the table before slipping them into the tip box is more than enough reminder. I also find it cute that when asked, a dealer always says that it's to alert security that it's really a tip going into the tip box. The reality is, that knocking is designed to remind the players to tip, while using that bullshit about security as the 'reason'.

Dave,
A dealer tapping the tip is to:
1. show surveillance that the chip is visually declared as a tip before being dropped,
2. and as a salute to the player making the tip,
- both of which are all right. I do hate it when a dealer loudly raps the chip instead of touching it to the edge of the table.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

DJTeddyBear

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May 19th, 2011 at 1:38:23 PM permalink

Gotcha.

I guess it's just those guys that do the loud rap that are hustling...

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Paigowdan

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May 19th, 2011 at 1:42:21 PM permalink

Yeah, they are.....
A "thank you" and a very quiet tap & drop is all the noise that is called for.....anything louder is hustling....

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Nareed

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May 19th, 2011 at 2:31:53 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Yeah, they are.....
A "thank you" and a very quiet tap & drop is all the noise that is called for.....anything louder is hustling....

I think you're too strict on what you call a hustle. But as you are a dealer, I'll defer to your judgment. perhaps I'm more easy-going about delaer doings than most other palyers, I mean as far as what I mind them doing for tips.

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Wizard
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May 19th, 2011 at 2:46:19 PM permalink

Quote: Nareed
On the Hoover Dam tour I took, I wasn't sure whether or not to tip the bus driver/tour guide. Among her spiel, she mentioned tips and a long list of people to tip, including her.

A good friend of mine is a tour guide, who does the Hoover Dam tour about half the time. Off the job, you better have an hour to spare if you ask him about tipping etiquette of tour guides. On the job, he is strictly prohibited from answering the question with anything more than something vague like, "Yes, we are allowed to accept tips."

On the way he has the guests read aloud from a paper that says the trips rules. On this paper it says something about tipping is appreciated. However, he says that much of the time the person who is supposed to read that part skips over it. When that happens, he says, he knows he will probably get nothing. To make a long story short, I think he would be delighted to get a 10% tip.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

cclub79

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May 19th, 2011 at 2:52:27 PM permalink

Quote: Nareed
I think you're too strict on what you call a hustle. But as you are a dealer, I'll defer to your judgment. perhaps I'm more easy-going about delaer doings than most other palyers, I mean as far as what I mind them doing for tips.

I feel the same way, Nareed. I think it's just a louder "thank you". If it makes other people want to "ring the bell", so be it.

I suppose they could do the traditional Deli or Take Out Restaurant; put a ratty old jar on the table next to the pass line that says "Tips!" with a smiley face. (Or better "College Fund!") It's interesting because places like Subway have no problem with a small tip jar, but I remember once placing a very large order for my floor in college at McDonalds and I tried to let the cashier keep the change (maybe $2.42 on a ~$58 order) and she said "No, we aren't allowed to..." (I don't remember seeing a Ronald McDonald house Bin at the time...) Perhaps an analysis of which fast food places allow and which prohibit, or maybe it's a franchise thing.

Nareed

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May 19th, 2011 at 3:04:26 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
A good friend of mine is a tour guide, who does the Hoover Dam tour about half the time. Off the job, you better have an hour to spare if you ask him about tipping etiquette of tour guides. On the job, he is strictly prohibited from answering the question with anything more than something vague like, "Yes, we are allowed to accept tips."

The Showtime driver did not talk for perhaps 3 minutes while driving. She had something to say about every fire hydrant and bush along the way, or so it seems. A lot of it was interesting.

Anyway, at some point, I forget where, she started talking about tipping. She described Vegas as a "tip town," explaining you were expected to tip almost everyone you run accross. and naturally she included the tour guide/driver in the litany.

As I said, I don't mind. I'd had half made up my mind to offer a tip anyway.

Quote:
To make a long story short, I think he would be delighted to get a 10% tip.

You know, when figuring out how much to tip the tour guide, I never once thought about the price of the tour. I gave her $5, now I wonder if it should have been more. I don't recall now how much I paid for the tour three years ago... Now I'm going to feel bad until I dig up through Gmail how much it cost. I liked her. She was nice, had interesting things to say, and we even had a brief chat about chocolate over a smoke.

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Nareed

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May 19th, 2011 at 3:25:55 PM permalink

Quote: cclub79
I feel the same way, Nareed. I think it's just a louder "thank you". If it makes other people want to "ring the bell", so be it.

That's my view: if you live off tips, you ought to let customers know tips are expected even if they're optional.

Quote:
I suppose they could do the traditional Deli or Take Out Restaurant; put a ratty old jar on the table next to the pass line that says "Tips!" with a smiley face. (Or better "College Fund!")

Oh, you just opened a big can of worms. Even peopel who make it a point to tip, are bitterly divided about tipping where there's no table service.

As for casinos, they could also put the tip box where players can see it, with a "TIPS" sign on it.

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Wizard
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May 19th, 2011 at 4:04:55 PM permalink

Quote: Nareed
I gave her $5, now I wonder if it should have been more. I don't recall now how much I paid for the tour three years ago... Now I'm going to feel bad until I dig up through Gmail how much it cost. I liked her. She was nice, had interesting things to say, and we even had a brief chat about chocolate over a smoke.

$5 is kind of chincy. For what it is worth, we Yanks have lower tipping expectations of our foreign guests. A 3-hour Hoover Dam tour probably would have been about $100, so a $10 tip would have been good.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Nareed

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May 19th, 2011 at 4:27:35 PM permalink

Quote: Wizard
$5 is kind of chincy. For what it is worth, we Yanks have lower tipping expectations of our foreign guests. A 3-hour Hoover Dam tour probably would have been about $100, so a $10 tip would have been good.

According to Expedia, I paid $61.50 for "activities." This includes both the tour and the roundtrip airport shuttle. The shuttle, as I recall, cost $13 last year, so it might have cost that in 08 too. But let's say it cost $10 in 08, then for the tour I paid $51.50, so I shorted the tour guide 15 cents in tips.

Usually I tip 10% in restaurants. That's about standard in Mexico. I may tip a little more if I go with a large party, or if the check is too low. Also for really good service. At a buffet I tip $2 to $5 depending on service.

Cabs are more complicated. In Mexico cabbies no longer expect tips. I tip them between 5 and 10 pesos, depending on how long the trip was, not how much it cost. That's low, but against no tip it's ok. Besides, about 95% of local cabbies either own their cab, and may or may not pay a cut to a base, or are paid a percentage of the day's take. Anyway, in the US I'll tip 10%.

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cclub79

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May 19th, 2011 at 8:12:05 PM permalink

I was still on the fence about the felt bet for the dealers, but I didn't see anyone mention one thing...They put it on the worst possible bet on the table. Did they do that to get the players to also bet the bad bet (which they wouldn't have to do...I'd think it would be the dealer bet following the player bet, not the other way around)? Or did they really just take an extra ~6 cents from every dollar tipped? For that malpractice, I am against the bet.

A good dealer, if asked about the "7 for the dealers" would say, "It's a way to give the workers a tip. If you'd like to tip, please ignore the very rude shakedown bet placed on the table, and instead consider placing a bet on the 3 to 6 or 8 to 11 bet."

Paigowdan