Just Say No to Crapless

For some reason I didn’t see this coming, the threat that Crapless Craps with its higher HE would be so attractive to Casinos that they would just flat out replace real Craps with it.

My feeling is that you should ‘just say no’ even though if you are a place|buy player you can play something close to your normal game [I know now]. Not playing the passline meant you can’t shoot the dice in the one game I investigated, and this is probably true all over, but many players don’t like to roll anyway. It is also true that if you only have to pay commission on a winning buy bet, that you can keep the HE below 1% [this is likely to be rarely the case]. But I am advocating that the best policy for all veteran Craps players is to ‘just say no’ to Crapless Craps, there is a lot at stake if Casino execs think we will play anyway.

Admittledly, the ‘just say no’ campaign against 6:5 BJ can be said to have failed. All casinos everywhere have this now, I don’t doubt, and though you can say 3:2 can still be found, and that some players will insist on it, those same players were the smarter players who would have known to avoid 6:5 anyway.

To be sure, I wouldn’t be the guy to try to organize such a campaign. And though I’m being a Cassandra about it, possibly it’s not a threat anyway. Is it only one lonely casino in Bristol Virginia that has decided to take such a despicable replacement decision? Obviously there is no harm in offering both types. I’m just scared I saw the future.

You can vote in the poll.

read you blog but replying here since you and I don't get notified of replies to your blog.

uth:
I just use unpaired board, 1 pair, 2 pair/trips for decisions and not the rest. Simple..
I don't find the mental energy used for memorizing your kicker to be worth it.

What do you mean by 'Fifth Card Lower in Rank' for a 2 pair board?

Quote: 100xOdds

read you blog but replying here since you and I don't get notified of replies to your blog.

uth:

I just use unpaired board, 1 pair, 2 pair/trips for decisions and not the rest. Simple..

I don't find the mental energy used for memorizing your kicker to be worth it.

You might just want to make cheat sheets using your own language.

Quote:

What do you mean by 'Fifth Card Lower in Rank' for a 2 pair board?

With 2 pair, there is a fifth card in a 5 card hand, right? If the dealer pairs up on that 5th card, it is worthless to him if that pair is lower than the other two pairs but makes a better hand if the pair ranks better than one of the others. This gives three more outs the dealer has.

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Above all, don't get stupid like I did if you get a bad dealer. It makes extra work but it's actually something you want and it can happen in a casino opening up like this one

Quote: odiousgambit

For some reason I didn’t see this coming, the threat that Crapless Craps with its higher HE would be so attractive to Casinos that they would just flat out replace real Craps with it.

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I brought along some extra cash in anticipation of playing Craps on a Princess cruise we took in October. Unfortunately, the only Craps table they had, was Crapless Craps. I visited the casino a few times during the week and never once saw the table open.

We did however benefit indirectly from gambling. After we booked our cabin, we were given the opportunity to bid for an upgrade.

We won the bid, and for $400 more we were given a suite that would have cost $2,000 more for the week.

When we got to the suite, I found some free snacks and drinks with a welcome letter to the person who originally had the suite, that mentioned how they hoped he would enjoy the casino and to notify them if he needed anything. When I asked the maid about it, she told us he was upgraded to another suite.

It's interesting how quickly all the casinos get on the same page for these things, even when they're direct and absolute competitors.

So when one casino puts in all Crapless Craps- if I were the competitor, I would put up a big billboard saying "Crapless Craps is for hapless chaps- come to our place where you can roll them the way you always have!" Instead, somebody says "Oh my God, they downgraded one of their games! We had better do it too! Or else something might happen!"

That's what you get when you hire managers whose assets as managers consist solely of being over 6' and having a loud voice.

Other various threads here also showing regrettable changes are on the way. I guess we all can predict one day the casinos will only be full of machines, with no dealers. Perhaps they'll stick in some advanced very human-like robot nearby to try to make it less sterile

Generation Beta will sit in awe listening to great grandpa tell how he actually got to pick up the dice and toss them, with a bunch of guys all crowded around the table, the dealer having to announce what was rolled.

I have always lamented organizations with no sense of tradition, in all things. Tradition should matter, and this bothers me as much as any of it.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

It's interesting how quickly all the casinos get on the same page for these things, even when they're direct and absolute competitors.

So when one casino puts in all Crapless Craps- if I were the competitor, I would put up a big billboard saying "Crapless Craps is for hapless chaps- come to our place where you can roll them the way you always have!" Instead, somebody says "Oh my God, they downgraded one of their games! We had better do it too! Or else something might happen!"

That's what you get when you hire managers whose assets as managers consist solely of being over 6' and having a loud voice.
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That didn't work for casinos that touted 3:2 BJ.

They saw the profits those casinos were making and dropped the only 3:2 BJ campaign and added 6:5.

Ploppies are stupid and just Play the games with the lower minimum.
Ie. Triple 0 roulette $10min vs $25 min 00

Casinos will just follow the max profit path till the ploppies get tired of being bent over without lube.
Ie: Vegas being a ghost town because of super excessive fees and high prices.
But not because of bad odds on games?

Quote: 100xOdds

(...)
Ploppies are stupid and Play the games with the lower minimum.
Ie. Triple 0 roulette $10min vs $25 min 00
(...)

They even play $25min 000 when there is a $15min 00 next to it.

I think that Crapless Craps has actually introduced Craps to some young people at a time when Craps is on the decline. It is slightly easier to understand. It also has a very good bet, "Lay 2 / Lay 12", which carries less than 1% house edge.

While 6:5 Blackjack will probably always exist somewhere, at least it has become a well-known fact that the odds are much worse, even my non-mathematically inclined friends know that. Even though there has never been an organized movement against triple zero roulette, it's being removed due to backlash/unpopularity. I think it would be funny if we organized a "two zeroes or less" protest on the strip.

Quote: harris

I think that Crapless Craps has actually introduced Craps to some young people at a time when Craps is on the decline. It is slightly easier to understand. It also has a very good bet, "Lay 2 / Lay 12", which carries less than 1% house edge.
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Do not count on this being available, it requires that the house let's you pay no commission except on wins. If you pay each time it totally turns that edge upside down.

A place that would close the regular Craps table and have the Crapless going is unlikely to be a 'except on wins' place. Tunica, Miss, gets mentioned and I haven't heard mention elsewhere.

Furthermore, I demand you quit saying anything nice about Crapless. Just kidding! [I think?]

According to our Sacred Texts, you can still have a below 1% house edge EVEN if you always have to pay the commission. It just raises the house edge by about 0.1%.

In terms of dice control, if you get really good at not rolling twelves or twos specifically, it could potentially lower the house edge a little more. Easier than training yourself to beat the "Make 'Em All" bet at least ;)

I am not going to claim that dice control can beat this bet, but I think that intelligent people should seek out this amazing opportunity rather than dismissing the entire Crapless Craps table.

Additionally Buy 2 and Buy 12 have below 1% house edge but ONLY if commission is taken on wins only. This is assuming the Wizard did the math correctly, I assume someone would have pointed it out already if he didn't.

get the popcorn out?

Quote: harris

According to our Sacred Texts, you can still have a below 1% house edge EVEN if you always have to pay the commission. It just raises the house edge by about 0.1%.

look again, it says "Buy 2, 12 (commission always), [pays]119 to 21, [probability=] 14.2857% , [house edge=] 4.7619%"

Quote:

In terms of dice control, if you get really good at not rolling twelves or twos specifically, it could potentially lower the house edge a little more. Easier than training yourself to beat the "Make 'Em All" bet at least ;)

I am not going to claim that dice control can beat this bet, but I think that intelligent people should seek out this amazing opportunity rather than dismissing the entire Crapless Craps table.

dice setters who can get it done with the 12s should go to the regular craps table.

Quote:

Additionally Buy 2 and Buy 12 have below 1% house edge but ONLY if commission is taken on wins only. This is assuming the Wizard did the math correctly, I assume someone would have pointed it out already if he didn't.

this last bit is seeming to be contradicting your top statement, at least in spirit
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You have puzzled me a bit all along. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have said you are trying to help dealers? I wonder what the casinos think, for the most part they like their dealers to know nothing about house edge and, I dunno, I think just don't need what you are providing. But now I think you are working for casinos?

You say Crapless is introducing new players to Craps. I say this is a bad thing, to initiate new players to a game with such a high edge instead of emphasizing, like the Wizard does, seeking out the best advantages and lowest HE, and to not be a ploppy.

Sorry for any confusion, to clarify I identified three bets that have below 1% house edge according to the Wizard of Odds website.

These are:
#1) [Lay 2/12, Commission only on wins] 0.7143% house edge
#2) [Lay 2/12, Commission paid up front] 0.8264% house edge
#3) [Buy 2/12, Commission only on wins] 0.7143% house edge

Yes I made a website that was originally to teach dealers, but now it is more to teach players games and to host game demos for game inventors. Of course dealers do not really need to know the house edge, but I don't think the casino actually cares if they know it since this information is publicly available, but what's important is that the Dealer Mode on my website helps them do the math of paying out bets correctly, and soon it will teach the house way for pai gow poker / pai gow tiles.

At least we agree that people should be seeking out the lowest HE, but the lowest HE could be on the Crapless Craps table if they offer Lay 2/12. I also agree that having a 5% house edge on the "main game" is too high but at least you can take Odds to reduce the house edge percent a bit.

I am not working for brick-and-mortar casinos, and even if I was, I don't think it would do anything to encourage people in this forum to place bets with high house edges :D

for some reason the Wizard changed to 'expected return' instead of 'house edge' on some of his charts, but the last you showed is correct [I think] if you crunch it out

if a player is really seeking the lowest HE, he will likely find it on a real Craps table, the free odds usually found there can really lower the edge below any of that shown above, 3x4x5x being very available

In any case, we can't be too critical if someone really tries to lower the edge with what's available in Crapless, but in my own opinion, only if real Craps is not available. But I am sticking to "just say no", the player is 'sticking it' to somebody who has to roll those dice. And anybody with any respect for tradition just can't want to see replacement of Craps by any derivative

Quote: odiousgambit

...In any case, we can't be too critical if someone really tries to lower the edge with what's available in Crapless, but in my own opinion, only if real Craps is not available. But I am sticking to "just say no", the player is 'sticking it' to somebody who has to roll those dice. And anybody with any respect for tradition just can't want to see replacement of Craps by any derivative
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Yeah, isn't replacement great? People usually cite Camus' book (the other Camus) in references to replacement of populations, but there's a lot more to the replacement principle than that, as it's a general observation that the traditions of the folk are being replaced by people who have so much more money and power than the folk that they don't recognize the traditions or see any value in them in comparison to their own mercenary desires. And that's how it gets to apply to populations- if you're doing something profitable and your customers don't like it, rather than switching to accommodate them, get rid of them and bring in new customers.

When you think about gambling games and most games in general, there really isn't much there besides tradition. Craps is played in alleys and private clubs more or less the same way it is played in casinos. Crapless is a game without that connection to multigenerational traditions and it serves the same purpose as the corn syrup in Coke as a more profitable replacement for the cane sugar, and nobody asked our opinion before that change was made.

That said, all of these games were new and non-traditional at some point, and many of them replaced something that was more traditional. It just seems like it happened at a slower rate and with consumer consent in earlier times.

I do not think we need to bring up "Great Replacement Theory" on the Wizard of Odds forum lol.

Street Craps only uses even money bets, and I would say it is not that similar of an experience to what is done in the casino. Casino Craps has undergone lots of change since the turn of the 20th century, with lots of bets being added, modified, or taken away. Unlike the player base of Pai Gow Tiles, most Craps players probably don't care about minor rule changes and accepted this. Crapless Craps has existed for decades (since 1981), so I don't think that it's current rise is just part of some new conspiracy by the corporate elites. If you're doing something profitable and customers don't like it, then the customers actually probably don't mind it - otherwise it wouldn't be profitable.

Also I do not think that table games are evolving at a particularly fast rate, even in the 21st century. The emergence of the internet and increase global travel may have helped standardize rules across regions actually. For example, Auckland casinos recently changed their UTH to international rules, probably because most online games use international rules and that's what foreign visitors will be familiar with.

Quote: harris

I do not think we need to bring up "Great Replacement Theory" on the Wizard of Odds forum lol.

Street Craps only uses even money bets, and I would say it is not that similar of an experience to what is done in the casino. Casino Craps has undergone lots of change since the turn of the 20th century, with lots of bets being added, modified, or taken away. Unlike the player base of Pai Gow Tiles, most Craps players probably don't care about minor rule changes and accepted this. Crapless Craps has existed for decades (since 1981), so I don't think that it's current rise is just part of some new conspiracy by the corporate elites. If you're doing something profitable and customers don't like it, then the customers actually probably don't mind it - otherwise it wouldn't be profitable.

Also I do not think that table games are evolving at a particularly fast rate, even in the 21st century. The emergence of the internet and increase global travel may have helped standardize rules across regions actually. For example, Auckland casinos recently changed their UTH to international rules, probably because most online games use international rules and that's what foreign visitors will be familiar with.
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Ah yes but a regular casino craps table didn't get rid of the traditional even money bets, did they? You can still play just like you did anywhere else. All the sidebets are added offerings that you're free to ignore and many players do.

I'm not talking about a casino putting in a table of Crapless and seeing if players like it, and maybe it will develop a following. I mean- "Great news everyone, our craps tables are now all Crapless, all the time! Come and enjoy this exciting, modern way of rolling the bones!" That's the corporation telling us how it's going to be whether we like it or not, and when "just coincidentally" all the stores in town are doing it at once, yeah that's a conspiracy. How upset players are about it I don't know, but they should be. I've noticed some demographics are more accepting of that kind of treatment than others.

I rolled four 12's in 7 rolls last night.