Im making a craps patent

I have a 2025 goal to finally file my patent ideas for new/improved felt layouts and some side games.

Im boomer (well, last of the genx, but im v old fash and not good w modern tech.) Ive been using MS paint to make "vector line" layouts in paint. Im sorry to say, I cant use photoshop bc the last time I used it was in 1999. Youtube videos are overhwelming, Im only making basic stuff but Im struggling bad.

My local librarians mentioned Adobe Illustrator, ms360 (cuz I used Visio in the 90s and I hear it's there now?), FreeCAD or LibreCAD, all of which I've never used before and the learning curves are apparently steep.

Do I need to hire a millennial to take my clean hand-drawn layouts to convert to digital files? Or would the patent office accept hand drawn? (I plan to ask my probate attorney for a recommendation for a patent lawyer, but Im assuming I need to digitalize the files first?)

Just wondering if anyone here has any advice for a first time patent writer. Ive read/downloaded all existing craps patents that I can find online, so my word drafts are mostly written done, it's only the layouts / artwork I am unsure the best way.

Ive been a lurker here for many many years and I have mostly found this site to be extremely helpful.

USPTO requires a certain format and style to their drawings and certain lines dots shading etc correspond to different materials or colors. There might be software out there that handles it these days I haven’t filed for a patent lately even though I’m very versed in it I usually use an attorney who has even more experience than I just having the right attorney’s name on the filing may minimize review.

I appreciate your reply.

I'm based in Wi but I highly doubt there are patent attorneys in my smallish city, so I anticipate having to find one in packerland or madtown or Mwaukee. It does make sense to have a recognizable attorney, I'm sure I'll pay a pretty penny for one.

Quote: SmirkinGherkin

I appreciate your reply.

I'm based in Wi but I highly doubt there are patent attorneys in my smallish city, so I anticipate having to find one in packerland or madtown or Mwaukee. It does make sense to have a recognizable attorney, I'm sure I'll pay a pretty penny for one.
link to original post

Of the three, I would suggest starting in Milwaukee. I know there were and are a number of players on the client side for patent attorneys in and around Milwaukee, which makes me think there will be some attorneys wanting to service those accounts.

On the flip side, if you can work by phone (or email, or zoom), you can get one from almost anywhere.

I know there were and are a number of players on the client side for patent attorneys in and around Milwaukee, which makes me think there will be some attorneys wanting to service those accounts.

(Snipped)

I just wanted clarification - what do u mean by players on the client side? Maybe Im taking yoir post too literally, or I am just misunderstanding the lingo. ?

Also, Milw has potawatomi, not my fave casino to play craps, I prefer Turtle Lake (my wi fave) or Oneida. I could make a whole post on my thoughts on Potawatomi.

Only a select handful of my felt and side games could I market for use in a casino, and I would not consider working with Pot. to have it there anyways, not sure if that makes any difference. OGB I would, tho my last visit I wasnt happy woth the stickman (he would try to hit my dice mid throw by literally throwing the stick up. I saw it happen on 2 occasions. Now I know better and will be asking for an immediate review if I ever see it happen again.)

Most of my patent designs are home felts for home games.

Table game type patents are difficult to get in the U.S. It may be beneficial to make an electronic version to make getting the patent easier.

Why are table games hard to patent? Is it because the market is "saturated?"

Luckily my craps table home games/layouts dont exist yet, so I know theres a little niche that I'm trying to fill, hence the patent to protect my "work."

t a gamer. I have a snes and 12 games and thats it. (Im boring) Game theory is not something I understand much of at all!

Problem is I dont do machines, only live. I see what youre saying tho. Hopefully I can find the right patent atty that can educate me on that. Ive read only a few patents for machines, like the luckyshooter.

Quote: SmirkinGherkin

Why are table games hard to patent? Is it because the market is "saturated?"

I do not recall the details but there was a ruling by the PTO about 10 or 20 years ago that made it difficult. I was advised many years ago that because software patents were easier to get the best approach was to make an electronic version with all of the same claims and then those claims would be covered for a table game.

I would advise getting a patent attorney that has done many casino games. I have used John Roethel in Las Vegas but I am not sure if he is still practicing.

If this is your first go at it, I would start with a provisional patent. There are a couple patent attorneys that specialize in gaming, if you search some of the past threads you should find them easily. If you are looking to save money you can draft the provisional patent yourself, including the drawings. You can get an idea of what they look like using google patents or other sites that publish existing patents. Then you can give that to your attorney, who will re-write it/augment it as needed, but if you do a decent job can save you money this way, and make it easier when publishing a full patent down the road.

That being said there is another camp who forgo patents completely, due to the Bilsky ruling. Even if a patent is approved it can be likely be changed slightly to bypass the patent, so why bother. The best games will likely be ripped off, but 99+% don't fall into that category.

I won't recommend one approach vs the other, I have used both in my game development, I think it depends on the situation.

Quote: zbrownson

If this is your first go at it, I would start with a provisional patent. There are a couple patent attorneys that specialize in gaming, if you search some of the past threads you should find them easily. If you are looking to save money you can draft the provisional patent yourself, including the drawings.

ZBrownson brings up a great point. Patents can't be copyrighted so you can basically just copy an invention patent similar to yours and just change the things that are applicable.

Quote: SmirkinGherkin

I know there were and are a number of players on the client side for patent attorneys in and around Milwaukee, which makes me think there will be some attorneys wanting to service those accounts.

(Snipped)

I just wanted clarification - what do u mean by players on the client side? Maybe Im taking yoir post too literally, or I am just misunderstanding the lingo. ?

Also, Milw has potawatomi, not my fave casino to play craps, I prefer Turtle Lake (my wi fave) or Oneida. I could make a whole post on my thoughts on Potawatomi.

link to original post

(snip!)

There were a bunch of industrial inventors in MKE - A-B, A-C, B&S, H-D, and probably a host of others. Based on the number of patents those clients have filed, I'd look for patent attorneys in MKE. (Look for fire under the smoke, if you follow my meaning.)

There are surely plenty in MSN as well, to service WARF innovations. I'm not sure if they're better, but I wouldn't be surprised if they charge more.

Thank you Drich. That makes sense, and I apprecoate u explainung it in a simple way.

I had no idea. :(

I have already written my craps patents, im mostly diy or die... your post was v educational for me. Just cuz I can write it, I now know doesn't mean I can "protect" it.

I'll be honest, I can see this is an uphill battle... electronics and software are completely out of my purview. :( like I said, Im not a gamer and I never throw my money into electronic gambling of any kind, ever.

(What even is coding or programming? Beats me. I dont even have apps on my phone! Im more tech boomer than my boomer parents! So i realize now I'm too tech dumb to make my patents happen...)

I think I'll play some super mario world now to think this all over.

Thank you, this helps me understand.

I do realize that many patents are damn close to being plagarisation due to the cut and paste nature, but I'm good at academic writing due to college, and I have cited previous patents, as is convention in patent writing.

As a musician I understand copyright as it relates to our original music/transcriptions but now I understand why some game developers just go straight to marketing.

I can see I have some decisions to make.

I'm hesitant to post what I'm working on here bc I dont want it to get "ripped off" (again, my copyright knowledge is in music and sheet music/publishing, so I am realizing I am otherwise super dumb on game copyright. Which I guess isn't a thing...)

But I also understand thats how patents work - a simple tweak of somethung existing is now something new, but only for a moment until I happens again!

I will dig more into "provisional patents" because I wasn't sure the full procedure.

I so, so appreciate everyone's help.

I'll be honest, I'm discouraged this morning. I have some choices to make.

Might just leave my "patent" drafts in a lockbox for many years and forget about them for a while...

Im humbled by my lack of knowledge in how this works, and lack of protection i will have.

Shit, music has more protection than patents!! Dayyam. I found lately more people understand music copyright based on the Ed Sheeran trial tho. As sad as that is.

Thank u again, like really Thank You and everyone replying here, for spelling this out for me in a simple way. I am a simple person, after all.

(I said im not v techie and I have no idea how to reply or quote more than one user, plz dont pile on me for the learning curve posting here since I signed up here. Im not sure how Not to double post.)

The best way to write a provisional patent is to make it just like the body of the patent without any claims. Keep it as broad as you can because you really don't have any protection until you write the claims and file the formal patent. The provisional just buys you one year to flush out the methods you will be claiming for protection.

I really don't even know what costs to expect today or an attorney to write the patent. 20 years ago I always assumed I would be spending around $10,000 but now I assume it will be between $20k and $30k. Most attorneys are probably charging between $400 and $800 an hour

Patents for games and side bets are hard to get because they are nothing more than ideas, rules and pay tables. There's nothing of substance in them. Adding a mechanical feature can help.

Even if you get a patent, they are virtually unenforceable - at least not without having a lot of money to throw at trial lawyers. And I mean a LOT of money. So much so, that even the big gaming companies steal game ideas from each other without fear.

You mentioned layouts several times. Layouts themselves should be copyrighted, not patented. Copyrights are very easy and cheap to get, but are similarly hard to enforce.

If you're still interested in giving a lawyer and the patent office some business, hire a lawyer that specializes in casino game patents, although they'll probably tell you the same thing about gaming patents.

Three such lawyers have been mentioned in other threads. Two come immediately to mind:

Rich Newman - Las Vegas
http://www.NewmanLawLV.com

Jon Muskin - Philadelphia
http://www.PatentsTradeMarks.com

Good luck

I've read several of your patents over the years. Thank you for the reply.

What I essentially have is my completed "provisional" patents in Word. I followed all proper conventions there so I dont anticipate any problems there...

Now I understand why some patents are only labeled provisional (1yr), thank you for that clarification.

I guess I'll consider starting with copyrighting felts, but I still have the same risk of it getting ripped off...

And I'm realizing if I go this route I'd have to be prepared to litigate in court, and damn, there aint no way I'm gonna have money to do that. Even if in my pipe dreams I'd make a lil by casinos loving my gwag or side bets or felt tweaks, and putting my patented bets on their felt, from what I understand that'll never be enuf to throw at court costs to enforce any potential "stealers." :(

I'm aware of what attorneys cost (I'm dealing with probate/fam property rn, and it's just short of what I'd label "expensive" but absolutely worth it)

Im starting to understand that "gaming"/patent attorneys that are worth their salt in this business charge way more...

@Dieter
I forgot to mention Carter in my orig post - my job took me there for 2 weeks a few yrs ago and I absolutely loved it up there, but havent visited since! :( It's def one of my top or fave casino experiences of all time actually. I'd call it my fave if i can visit again. Great dealers, cool layout, clean, and well theyre low key 420 friendly ;) I only have good things to say about Carter.

Turtle Lake finally got their pool fixed, so I can finally take adv of the free hotel stay comps. I won't stay at a hotel that doesnt have a pool!!! Whats the point??

Thank you again. I have so much to chew on.