dealer screwed me & potential ap opportunity

I will state right now I intend to delete this thread after a sufficient conversation on the topic, because of the potential AP opportunity it creates. So join the dialogue before I delete the thread, folks.

Before I tell the story of how the dealer f**ked me let me give some background.

This casino uses a so called “toke” tip system. Meaning, dealers do not share tips. They each keep their own tips.

This is one of the newer craps machines. It’s a “hybrid” craps machine and here’s the thing: usually a craps table is watched by 3-4 dealers + 1 supervisor. In this type of table, it is watched by only 1 dealer, and he/she manually enters the results of the dice which the machines then pay out accordingly.

Needless to say no human can watch with 100% attention. And they kinda don’t even make effort for 100%. I’d estimate their watch attention to be about 85-90%. For someone making $25/h that is pretty impressive honestly, after like 6 hours of dealing.

Final point: it has a “both dice must hit back wall” sign.


Now here is the story

I was playing the table along with another player. I’m betting don’t pass/don’t come. The other guy is betting the usual ploppy bets. The ploppy was drunk and tipping very generously.

An incident happened and another one nearly 100% identical incident happened, and the dealer handled it differently. I once again restate there is no supervisor, just a $3/h dealer (without tips).


The ploppy threw a 7 and one of the dice landed at the “borderline” between “back wall” and not back wall. Let me make it clear - when I said “borderline”, I mean physical distance is extremely close to the back wall, but make no mistake, it clearly hit the “not back wall” side of that very precise borderline.

Dealer said “no roll” and the game continued. I wasn’t happy about a annulled 7 (I was betting the dont’s) but I am mentally disciplined enough to not care.

Game continued, a bit later. The ploppy rolled 9 (the point) and incidentally one of the dice hit the EXACT borderline he previously hit with the 7 out. This time, dealer said “9 winner winner 9”.


You see how I got f**ked now?

Please don’t ask me where this casino is. For obvious reasons I can’t say it.


Now for the AP part:

The question is, what is the EV here. So,


(Probability of a borderline throw that could be dealer’s discretion) * (probability of dealer discretion able to make a difference) * (the EV difference between dealer calling no roll vs valid roll)

Vs

The amount of tip to the dealer enough for him to call “no roll” in your favor

If the former > ladder, then this is APable. The the next question is what is the +EV%

I don’t think most people are even aware these new hybrid tables are watched by only 1 dealer. Nor the difference of having no supervisor present.


Thank you

Dealers can make close bad calls, and I'd say calling a no roll on an inch is a definite bad call. Dealers can also make no contest bad calls where a senior rolls the dice 1/3rd the way down the table and it's a 7-out and suddenly it's not a no roll. There's no accounting for bad dealer calls. They may make me pass the dice next time, idk.

I wish there were a picture. Is there an actual line that the dice must cross?

On a real table hitting the back wall is hitting the wall and not crossing the line.

Please clear this up.

Chump is correct that dealers can make errors in a call.

Once I was accused of a short roll because my dice came to rest near the hardways boxes. The boxman made the call. The table went bananas because my dice actually hit the back wall and bounced all the way back.... but the boxman was counting chips and didn't see the bounce back.

If you feel there was a bad call you should appeal it immediately and if necessary demand a review of the tape. You have that right.

You can delete threads that you start? Since when.

Quote: EvenBob

You can delete threads that you start? Since when.
link to original post

You can edit them to a nothingness, such as the comment 'Content deleted' or even [bold][/bold]

Quote: AlanMendelson

I wish there were a picture. Is there an actual line that the dice must cross?

On a real table hitting the back wall is hitting the wall and not crossing the line.

link to original post

Afaik no lines on these tables. It just says "must hit back wall"


Edit: Also security tapped my shoulders when I tried to take a picture of the table from afar after I stopped playing

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Quote: AlanMendelson

I wish there were a picture. Is there an actual line that the dice must cross?

On a real table hitting the back wall is hitting the wall and not crossing the line.

link to original post

Afaik no lines on these tables. It just says "must hit back wall"

Also security tapped my shoulders when I tried to take a picture of it
link to original post

So you wait until security isn't around. If you go on a tilt every time a dealer's decision goes against you, your AP career isn't going to go very far.

Quote: billryan

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Quote: AlanMendelson

I wish there were a picture. Is there an actual line that the dice must cross?

On a real table hitting the back wall is hitting the wall and not crossing the line.

link to original post

Afaik no lines on these tables. It just says "must hit back wall"

Also security tapped my shoulders when I tried to take a picture of it
link to original post

So you wait until security isn't around. If you go on a tilt every time a dealer's decision goes against you, your AP career isn't going to go very far.
link to original post

You misunderstood me. I meant taking a picture of the table (I wasn't even playing and I was standing 10 feet away)

The 2 sentences I said were not related in any way.

It's standard procedure to prevent photography in a casino.

Only time they really allow it is a snapshot of a jackpot you personally won in my experience.

This is just a simple example of possible collusion. You just happened to be on the wrong side of it.

Imagine if the player was able to get the dice into the area even one in ten times where the dealer has the opportunity to call or NOT call a no roll! If it is always done in your favor that is a HUGE edge. If you became aware of this, please explain why you didn’t bet WITH the ‘ploppy’, not against him?

The ‘legality’ of this is a separate discussion….

Quote: darkoz

It's standard procedure to prevent photography in a casino.

Only time they really allow it is a snapshot of a jackpot you personally won in my experience.
link to original post

Right, and casino security is so omnipresent that one can't snap a picture of a craps table with a cell phone.

Quote: OnceDear

Quote: EvenBob

You can delete threads that you start? Since when.
link to original post

You can edit them to a nothingness, such as the comment 'Content deleted' or even [bold][/bold]
link to original post

But the original post that started the thread would still exist if someone replied with a quote of the original post as it was once written.

Quote: OnceDear

Quote: EvenBob

You can delete threads that you start? Since when.
link to original post

You can edit them to a nothingness, such as the comment 'Content deleted' or even [bold][/bold]
link to original post

Yes I know, but you can't delete the thread.

I have changed the thread title to substitute "screwed' for the mutant F-bomb. I feel particularly sensitive about decorum in thread titles because the thread titles are displayed to all users and observers.

Rule 6 Keep it PG. No pornographic or violent images or text. Profanity is prohibited, especially the F word.

Quote: SOOPOO

This is just a simple example of possible collusion. You just happened to be on the wrong side of it.

Imagine if the player was able to get the dice into the area even one in ten times where the dealer has the opportunity to call or NOT call a no roll! If it is always done in your favor that is a HUGE edge. If you became aware of this, please explain why you didn’t bet WITH the ‘ploppy’, not against him?

The ‘legality’ of this is a separate discussion….
link to original post

You're right.

I was not aware of this on the first grey area roll. I only became aware of this on the second grey area roll. I was betting dont's because it's mathematically slightly better and also lower variance.

Once I realized dealer was favoring the ploppy, I started betting pass as well. But sadly no 3rd borderline throw incident happened and I left after an hour.

If there's a "legality" problem for anyone, it won't me because I was the victim. It would be the ploppy.