Bad rule
April 21st, 2022 at 3:15:41 PM
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Why does every casino require me to have a line bet to shoot the dice?
April 21st, 2022 at 3:34:01 PM
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Because its the rule
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 21st, 2022 at 5:23:44 PM
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Quote: gambleheadWhy does every casino require me to have a line bet to shoot the dice?
Because you are the shooter, and the job of the shooter is to set the point.
Now if it really bothers you I suggest you bet the same amount on both pass and don't pass on the come out (doey-don't) and then remove the don't pass bet when the point is set.
If you're betting a quarter on each then you've the option to make a dollar bet on midnight as a hedge against losing the DP if a 12 shows.
"What, me worry?"
April 21st, 2022 at 5:30:37 PM
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Years ago when I was a regular at Bellagio a guy came in at 5am on Sundays to play craps.
He bet only when he was the shooter.
He always bet doey/dont with no odds.
That's all.
No one could figure out what his purpose was. He did it every time I saw him play which was many times.
He bet only when he was the shooter.
He always bet doey/dont with no odds.
That's all.
No one could figure out what his purpose was. He did it every time I saw him play which was many times.
April 21st, 2022 at 6:32:57 PM
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Quote: gambleheadWhy does every casino require me to have a line bet to shoot the dice?
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Welcome to the forum.
Why would they let someone who isn't betting play?
May the cards fall in your favor.
April 21st, 2022 at 6:41:39 PM
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Quote: DieterWhy would they let someone who isn't betting play?
You may not understand the nuances of his question.
Take me for example.
When I play craps I rarely roll dem bones anymore because I opt to place bet pretty much exclusively (most of the time) and I eschew a line bet.
The real question is "why don't casinos let a place better with working place bets and no line bet roll the dice?"
There is no sound reason not to allow it that I can see, just conservative adherance to "that's the way it's always been."
Next time I go to the casino I'll try to argue this with the box / floor man just for the hell of it.
"What, me worry?"
April 21st, 2022 at 7:21:41 PM
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Quote: MrVQuote: DieterWhy would they let someone who isn't betting play?
You may not understand the nuances of his question.
Take me for example.
When I play craps I rarely roll dem bones anymore because I opt to place bet pretty much exclusively (most of the time) and I eschew a line bet.
The real question is "why don't casinos let a place better with working place bets and no line bet roll the dice?"
There is no sound reason not to allow it that I can see, just conservative adherance to "that's the way it's always been."
Next time I go to the casino I'll try to argue this with the box / floor man just for the hell of it.
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To my understanding, the pass/don't pass are the fundamental bets of the game.
Some might view every other bet on the table as a side bet.
If you can take down your bet mid-hand, without a win or loss, the house might be deprived of their edge. The house seems to emphatically prefer not doing that.
I can understand requiring a contract bet of some type before the dice fly, the pass line is a reasonable one to require, and it's reasonable to require it from the shooter.
Curious if the box man will say "you don't have to bet the line or throw the dice" or "you have to bet the line to throw the dice". If there's birdseed, I guess the former.
May the cards fall in your favor.
April 21st, 2022 at 7:32:47 PM
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I understand the contract bet requirement, and as a condition to rolling dem bones without a line bet I'd be willing to agree to having my place bet, in an amount equal to or greater than the minimum line bet, be required to stay up til the point is resolved.
The house should jump all over it and call me "Gamblin' Jesus" for making that offer which gives a bit of HA to the casino.
The house should jump all over it and call me "Gamblin' Jesus" for making that offer which gives a bit of HA to the casino.
"What, me worry?"
April 21st, 2022 at 7:38:27 PM
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It would be smart for them to accept your generous terms, so I doubt it will happen. ;)
May the cards fall in your favor.
April 21st, 2022 at 7:51:30 PM
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The dont isnt a contract bet, and theyll let you shoot with a dont bet. So its not that.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
April 21st, 2022 at 8:01:36 PM
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Quote: unJonThe dont isnt a contract bet, and theyll let you shoot with a dont bet. So its not that.
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If you take your don't down, will they take the dice away?
May the cards fall in your favor.
April 21st, 2022 at 8:25:03 PM
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Quote: DieterQuote: unJonThe dont isnt a contract bet, and theyll let you shoot with a dont bet. So its not that.
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If you take your don't down, will they take the dice away?
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Point taken
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
April 21st, 2022 at 8:59:27 PM
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The dont pass bet is a reverse type contract in that although you could take it down, you cant put it up whenever you want.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 21st, 2022 at 9:06:26 PM
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Yeah so I have to put down $1 on the PL to shoot and I can put down $6 on the PB 6 or 8 after the come-out on Bubble Craps.
April 21st, 2022 at 10:06:32 PM
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Quote: MrVQuote: DieterWhy would they let someone who isn't betting play?
You may not understand the nuances of his question.
Take me for example.
When I play craps I rarely roll dem bones anymore because I opt to place bet pretty much exclusively (most of the time) and I eschew a line bet.
The real question is "why don't casinos let a place better with working place bets and no line bet roll the dice?"
There is no sound reason not to allow it that I can see, just conservative adherance to "that's the way it's always been."
Next time I go to the casino I'll try to argue this with the box / floor man just for the hell of it.
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Good point about letting a place bettor with active bets roll.
It really might come down to tradition. Also, don't wives roll for their husbands?
April 21st, 2022 at 10:09:14 PM
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I've seen don't bettors roll, set a point of 6 or 8 and then switch to the pass.
April 22nd, 2022 at 8:17:24 AM
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Wives/girlfriends shooting is more about sexism than rule breaking.Quote: AlanMendelsonAlso, don't wives roll for their husbands?
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Often they roll FOR their male partner who does have a line bet.
Usually if the get an actual turn of their own, they have a second line bet down.
The only problem comes when the lady is not betting until she gets her chance to roll. But, since we love to see those ladies lean over the edge of the table to get the dice, and jump up and down when they get excited over a good roll, who would object?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 22nd, 2022 at 10:15:47 AM
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Craps is a derivative of an historic dice game called Hazard. The Shooter made one bet, which was on himself to win. Other players faded, or covered, parts of that bet up to the full amount. For centuries, that central bet has been called Pass.
For reasons of continuity and tradition each Shooter today must bet on either Pass or a comparatively recent counterpart called Don't Pass.
Dark Side bets became available in the early decades of the last century. Place bets were invented after Nevada made gambling legal. Bonus Craps, Fire Bet, and others are very recent additions. At the core always was the original bet called Pass.
For reasons of continuity and tradition each Shooter today must bet on either Pass or a comparatively recent counterpart called Don't Pass.
Dark Side bets became available in the early decades of the last century. Place bets were invented after Nevada made gambling legal. Bonus Craps, Fire Bet, and others are very recent additions. At the core always was the original bet called Pass.
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)
April 22nd, 2022 at 1:34:12 PM
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A much younger me once walked up to an empty Reno craps table and put down my remaining $55 in chips on the Field. The stickman turned to the pit boss and asked if I could do that. He said "yes," and I promptly rolled a 7.
I don't do things like that anymore.
I don't do things like that anymore.
May 14th, 2022 at 6:48:38 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonYears ago when I was a regular at Bellagio a guy came in at 5am on Sundays to play craps.
He bet only when he was the shooter.
He always bet doey/dont with no odds.
That's all.
No one could figure out what his purpose was. He did it every time I saw him play which was many times.
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I can think of three possibilities, all governed by the iron rule that he lose the least amount of money possible. And one extra.
1. He was feigning going to church, but went to the casino instead
2. He was looking to score alcohol before the liquor stores opened at noon, and the casino gave it away for free!
3. He was there for pure entertainment.
4. He was trying out his latent telekinetic powers....
May 14th, 2022 at 7:02:54 PM
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The received wisdom of 36 years at the craps table about why a pass line bet is required to shoot:
1. The shooter must have skin in the game, and therefore a goal.
2. A contract bet (which includes the Don't) is required to ensure point 1 operates hroughout the pass.
Place bets do not fulfill #2, as one said, unless the casino allows a change that forces the shooter to leave up a place bet throughout the pass. But that just adds to the dealers' workloads, so the casinos reject that solution.
The Don't being removable is only the casino working in their best interest. But it is still a contract bet, and they can refuse to allow the shooter to remove the bet to ensure #1 is still in force.
I have seen a shooter ejected mid-pass exactly once, playing Harrahs' Chester/Philly. He somehow snapped a corner off one die and rolled, and was tackled by security and hustled away. The roll, which was didn't resolve the point, was allowed, but the player was ejected. I don't remember if the next shooter kept rolling to try to make the busted shooter's point of not (this was years ago). The layout had one big ugly scratch down it (he was shooting opposite hook), and they had to get the table re-covered.
Lastly, I have seen one rule that doesn't get mentioned a whole lot, and appears to be optionally enforced: If the next person to shoot has not been betting, the stick will pass them by and offer the dice to the next person down the line. Now, you can not bet for 14 of the 16 people at the table, but you better put up some money when the guy ahead of you shoots if you're determined to roll dem bones.
Anyone else experience this last one?
1. The shooter must have skin in the game, and therefore a goal.
2. A contract bet (which includes the Don't) is required to ensure point 1 operates hroughout the pass.
Place bets do not fulfill #2, as one said, unless the casino allows a change that forces the shooter to leave up a place bet throughout the pass. But that just adds to the dealers' workloads, so the casinos reject that solution.
The Don't being removable is only the casino working in their best interest. But it is still a contract bet, and they can refuse to allow the shooter to remove the bet to ensure #1 is still in force.
I have seen a shooter ejected mid-pass exactly once, playing Harrahs' Chester/Philly. He somehow snapped a corner off one die and rolled, and was tackled by security and hustled away. The roll, which was didn't resolve the point, was allowed, but the player was ejected. I don't remember if the next shooter kept rolling to try to make the busted shooter's point of not (this was years ago). The layout had one big ugly scratch down it (he was shooting opposite hook), and they had to get the table re-covered.
Lastly, I have seen one rule that doesn't get mentioned a whole lot, and appears to be optionally enforced: If the next person to shoot has not been betting, the stick will pass them by and offer the dice to the next person down the line. Now, you can not bet for 14 of the 16 people at the table, but you better put up some money when the guy ahead of you shoots if you're determined to roll dem bones.
Anyone else experience this last one?
May 15th, 2022 at 5:32:44 AM
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I've seen it many times.
The Stick may refuse the dice if they or the Box/Dealers verify that there has been "no action". If none, they may go on to the next
person who has made at least minimum passline or place bets. At an Indian casino I've seen them do that if they think there has not
been "sufficient" action.
These days it's prudent to bet on the person right before you when you are trying to minimize betting on others(if you want to shoot).
The Stick may refuse the dice if they or the Box/Dealers verify that there has been "no action". If none, they may go on to the next
person who has made at least minimum passline or place bets. At an Indian casino I've seen them do that if they think there has not
been "sufficient" action.
These days it's prudent to bet on the person right before you when you are trying to minimize betting on others(if you want to shoot).
May 15th, 2022 at 10:25:34 AM
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I've seen it when the player has just squeezed in and turns out he is to the left of the last shooter by coincidence.Quote: onebokI've seen it many times.
The Stick may refuse the dice if they or the Box/Dealers verify that there has been "no action". If none, they may go on to the next
person who has made at least minimum passline or place bets. At an Indian casino I've seen them do that if they think there has not
been "sufficient" action.
These days it's prudent to bet on the person right before you when you are trying to minimize betting on others(if you want to shoot).
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What we need is someone to bet the Don't as shooter, get a point set, then decline to roll the dice, and see what the house says and does ... at various casinos
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
May 15th, 2022 at 11:00:04 AM
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I went to my nearest casino after this discussion about shooting without a place bet and asked the floor person if they'd let me roll dem bones without a PL bet; I offered to make place bets in an amount greater than the minimum required line bet and I agree I would not be permitted to reduce or take them down.
She agreed with me that my proposal would give the house a greater advantage against me than had I made a PL bet, yet she refused my offer without explanation, other than "that's not how it's done."
I think the rule should change as WGAS what the shooter bets, all that is needed is to have new numbers established.
She agreed with me that my proposal would give the house a greater advantage against me than had I made a PL bet, yet she refused my offer without explanation, other than "that's not how it's done."
I think the rule should change as WGAS what the shooter bets, all that is needed is to have new numbers established.
"What, me worry?"
May 15th, 2022 at 11:32:10 AM
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I wouldn't care if the shooter rule were changed. It makes no difference to me.
Also... some casinos do not allow bets on Bonus Craps or Fire Bet without a minimum bet somewhere else on the table.
Also... some casinos do not allow bets on Bonus Craps or Fire Bet without a minimum bet somewhere else on the table.
May 15th, 2022 at 12:37:09 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonsome casinos do not allow bets on Bonus Craps or Fire Bet without a minimum bet somewhere else on the table.
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Shows how dumb casinos are. We will not allow a -20% wager, unless you make a -1.41% passerine bet!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
May 15th, 2022 at 3:43:54 PM
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Quote: DeMangoQuote: AlanMendelsonsome casinos do not allow bets on Bonus Craps or Fire Bet without a minimum bet somewhere else on the table.
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Shows how dumb casinos are. We will not allow a -20% wager, unless you make a -1.41% passerine bet!
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I guess Red Rock doesnt want anyone to bet $5 on the All Tall Small ($15 total) and walk out with $1065.
Unfortunately for Red Rock the ATS hits there. Must be loaded dice.
May 15th, 2022 at 4:50:10 PM
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I don't think its a dumb rule at all.
Without that rule, you would have a table full of people chasing the ATS and llaying nothing else. Notinhg to offset if it wins.
16 players all playing the bonus, the casino makes 240 (5-5-5 bet) everytime 7 rolls (plus 1 PL loss) but risks 17,040 if it hits (on the 30-150 paytable)
Without that rule, you would have a table full of people chasing the ATS and llaying nothing else. Notinhg to offset if it wins.
16 players all playing the bonus, the casino makes 240 (5-5-5 bet) everytime 7 rolls (plus 1 PL loss) but risks 17,040 if it hits (on the 30-150 paytable)
May 15th, 2022 at 7:12:37 PM
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Quote: PlayYourCardsRightI don't think its a dumb rule at all.
Without that rule, you would have a table full of people chasing the ATS and llaying nothing else. Notinhg to offset if it wins.
16 players all playing the bonus, the casino makes 240 (5-5-5 bet) everytime 7 rolls (plus 1 PL loss) but risks 17,040 if it hits (on the 30-150 paytable)
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Well put.
A lot of small casinos won't even offer bets like the ATS and Fire DESPITE their big house advantage because they know just ONE HIT could knock out a day's profits.
I remember when the old Gold Strike in Jean had $3 minimum craps. I asked why they didnt offer the Fire Bet? They told me if it hit once for $5000 it would crush them for a week.
Sometimes the edge doesnt matter. But the payoff does. And I realize that's a controversial statement to make on a forum like this one.
May 15th, 2022 at 7:23:24 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonSometimes the edge doesnt matter. But the payoff does. And I realize that's a controversial statement to make on a forum like this one.
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I don't see Risk of Ruin as particularly controversial.
What you saw seems like a pretty common Risk of Ruin concern, although from a direction not often considered by players.
May the cards fall in your favor.
May 16th, 2022 at 10:01:40 AM
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"Having skin in the game," can also be interpreted differently if you're a good looking 20s to 30s female hustler. I've seen the same girls masterfully penetrating a craps game with no money and walking away with hundreds. I don't know if there is a name for them, but let's call them Craps Tricks (CT) for now.
I can't tell if they're prostitutes or just hustlers, but I've seen the same women slowly get themself situated to a craps game to "watch and learn." When all the horny men strike up conversations why they're not betting, the CT's tell them that it's their first time and they don't know how to play. They also tell them that the game looks intimidating and they're too scared to put their own money to play. Amost with 100% certainty, the men will drop them a passline bet and put odds behind them to get friendly with the CT. I've actually seen these CT's work a whole table and get thrown a bunch of green and black chips for rolling well. A lot of times, they have no wager, but they roll because the box knows it's good for business.
I wouldn't be surprised if these CT's pull in close to 6-figure a year.
I can't tell if they're prostitutes or just hustlers, but I've seen the same women slowly get themself situated to a craps game to "watch and learn." When all the horny men strike up conversations why they're not betting, the CT's tell them that it's their first time and they don't know how to play. They also tell them that the game looks intimidating and they're too scared to put their own money to play. Amost with 100% certainty, the men will drop them a passline bet and put odds behind them to get friendly with the CT. I've actually seen these CT's work a whole table and get thrown a bunch of green and black chips for rolling well. A lot of times, they have no wager, but they roll because the box knows it's good for business.
I wouldn't be surprised if these CT's pull in close to 6-figure a year.
Last edited by: SiegfriedRoy on May 16, 2022
May 16th, 2022 at 10:43:09 AM
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I've heard them called "Virgin Marys", rather sarcastically. I'll admit to floating a bet for them when I'm feeling mellow and wildly ahead. Why? Gambling is mostly entertainment for me--my goals are to win a decent amount and have fun. Talking to some eye candy (but guarding the chips) is as good a way to spend an evening as any. Sure I might be passing up megabucks, but as my handle says, I am retired and very comfortable.
I say let the eye candy trade on their good looks. The looks don't last long anyway.
I say let the eye candy trade on their good looks. The looks don't last long anyway.
May 16th, 2022 at 11:09:47 AM
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Quote: BillHasRetiredI've heard them called "Virgin Marys", rather sarcastically. I'll admit to floating a bet for them when I'm feeling mellow and wildly ahead. Why? Gambling is mostly entertainment for me--my goals are to win a decent amount and have fun. Talking to some eye candy (but guarding the chips) is as good a way to spend an evening as any. Sure I might be passing up megabucks, but as my handle says, I am retired and very comfortable.
I say let the eye candy trade on their good looks. The looks don't last long anyway.
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No judgement here. I rather admire these "Virgin Marys." They're no different than "Bottle Rats," who are good looking girls who sit at night club tables and drink/party at the expense of bunch of dudes who paid thousands to reserve a table. The only difference is these Virgin Marys are taking home hard cash without risking any of their money and somewhat keeping their dignity. If you are satisfied with spending some time at the craps table with eye candy and you're rendered some tips to them in exchange, that's a great mutually beneficial arrangement.
May 16th, 2022 at 11:12:34 AM
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Sounds like true AP.
"What, me worry?"
May 16th, 2022 at 1:37:18 PM
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Sorry. I never fell for that... making bets for them.
Instead I married them.
Instead I married them.
May 16th, 2022 at 2:56:08 PM
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Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha!!
May 26th, 2022 at 3:19:35 PM
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Quote: gambleheadWhy does every casino require me to have a line bet to shoot the dice?
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This is not true. Anyone with a line bet can enable someone else to shoot the dice on their money. This happens with guys who have money and would prefer for a lucky lady to shoot the dice.
Now that I answered your question, how about you answer my question:
Why do people ask so many fallacious loaded questions?
Here's some more RAA approaches to demonstrate the compound element to your loaded question fallacy:
Ask if you can make a don't pass bet and after shooting to establish the point, ask the casino if they will allow you to remove your bet, but still continue shooting with no other action until you find out if you would have lost or not to decide if you feel like shooting again. Tell them you will ONLY bet if they allow this, and offer to make a maximum bet. I think you'll find that there are casinos that will allow you to shoot the dice with no bets on the felt at all if this cooperation with you means that you are giving up a 33% advantage on the 4/10, a 20% math advantage on the 5/9, and a 9.09% advantage on the 6/8 that would have been to your don't-pass-bet's favor out of superstition fearing an unlikely loss.
Now transitively that I have demonstrated the fallacious nature of your initial question that embeds a false claim in it, you probably have the one-word answer why:
The casino is a business. That is why.
aahigh.com
May 26th, 2022 at 6:37:33 PM
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I learned that years ago when I tried to market a predecessor to my Poker For Roulette game.Quote: AlanMendelsonSometimes the edge doesnt matter. But the payoff does. And I realize that's a controversial statement to make on a forum like this one.
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In short, casinos love gamblers, but hate gambling.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
