ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
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June 24th, 2020 at 1:29:11 PM permalink
Does a Lay 8 bet of $24 + $1 vig up front count as a $25 bet for the table minimum of $25 or do I have to go to a Lay 8 of $30 + $1 vig up front because it PAYS $25?

Does a Lay 9 bet of $30 + $1 vig up front count as a $25 bet, or do I need a $39 bet + $1 vig up front because it PAYS $26?

Does a Lay 10 bet of $40 + $1 vig up front count as a $25 bet, or do I need a $50 bet + $1 vig up front because it PAYS $25?

WinCraps was just rounding my green chip lay bets on all numbers to $30 + $1 vig on a $25 table minimum.
onebok
onebok
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Thanks for this post from:
ChumpChange
June 25th, 2020 at 4:22:20 AM permalink
Vig is NOT the bet. The latter of your "or" clauses is the rule.
The lay must result in a win that is at the table minimum or higher.
That doesn't mean that you wouldn't get away with the former in many venues.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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June 26th, 2020 at 5:07:54 AM permalink
I致e tried at some $25 tables to PLACE $24 on 6/8 with $1 toke bets. Total $25 bet, right?

Some allowed it. Some didn稚.

I guess what I知 saying is it depends. Try it.

Your mileage may vary.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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June 26th, 2020 at 5:50:25 AM permalink
I'm gonna need a $310 buy-in for ten Lay 8 bets, instead of $250.
I'm gonna lose $31 in vig for every 31 $30 bets I make.

Bah, it's not gonna work well with my progression. Gonna have to scout out a $15 table or buy-in for $500 with ten $48 Lay 8 bets.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Jun 26, 2020
DeMango
DeMango
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June 26th, 2020 at 2:53:13 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I致e tried at some $25 tables to PLACE $24 on 6/8 with $1 toke bets. Total $25 bet, right?

Some allowed it. Some didn稚.

I guess what I知 saying is it depends. Try it.

Your mileage may vary.


In the grand scheme of things go $25 or $26. You lose 16 cents for the former, get $30 payout on latter. Easy to make bet proper at $30.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
TinMan
TinMan
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June 26th, 2020 at 4:20:42 PM permalink
Other than craps and sports betting, are there any other lay bets/bets that pay less than 1 to 1? Slot machines sometimes return less than one bet but I don稚 think of that as a lay bet. I can稚 think of any other table games with lay bets.
If anyone gives you 10,000 to 1 on anything, you take it. If John Mellencamp ever wins an Oscar, I am going to be a very rich dude.
unJon
unJon
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June 26th, 2020 at 4:38:42 PM permalink
Quote: TinMan

Other than craps and sports betting, are there any other lay bets/bets that pay less than 1 to 1? Slot machines sometimes return less than one bet but I don稚 think of that as a lay bet. I can稚 think of any other table games with lay bets.



Good question. Only thing that comes to mind is an over bet bluff in poker (laying that your opponent doesn稚 have the hand to call). Not really the same thing.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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June 26th, 2020 at 5:05:02 PM permalink
Quote: TinMan

Other than craps and sports betting, are there any other lay bets/bets that pay less than 1 to 1? Slot machines sometimes return less than one bet but I don稚 think of that as a lay bet. I can稚 think of any other table games with lay bets.


Does the 5% commission on banker bets in baccarat count?
TinMan
TinMan
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June 26th, 2020 at 5:14:39 PM permalink
That is an excellent point. Yeah, I壇 call 19 to 20 for banker Bacc bet a lay bet. You are betting on a mathematical favorite (different from the commission in PGP/PGT where the underlying game is exactly even).
If anyone gives you 10,000 to 1 on anything, you take it. If John Mellencamp ever wins an Oscar, I am going to be a very rich dude.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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January 16th, 2021 at 5:59:56 AM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Does a Lay 8 bet of $24 + $1 vig up front count as a $25 bet for the table minimum of $25 or do I have to go to a Lay 8 of $30 + $1 vig up front because it PAYS $25?

Does a Lay 9 bet of $30 + $1 vig up front count as a $25 bet, or do I need a $39 bet + $1 vig up front because it PAYS $26?

Does a Lay 10 bet of $40 + $1 vig up front count as a $25 bet, or do I need a $50 bet + $1 vig up front because it PAYS $25?

WinCraps was just rounding my green chip lay bets on all numbers to $30 + $1 vig on a $25 table minimum.



Vig is based on the win, not bet, amount on lay bets.
Vig is "UP-FRONT" at the Stratosphere and some other "high vigorish" dice-table operations like Silver Sevens (at least when it was Terribles)

Besides these two places, in 2016 anyway, every table was "vig on the win" -- which means that when you take down a lay bet at a "classy" crap-table in Vegas, they refund the vigorish along with the bet every time.

$31 place-to-lose wins $25 on 6/8 (IE: $1 vig-on-win which is refundable if bet is taken down)
$37 place-to-lose wins $24 on 5/9 (IE: $1 vig-on-win which is refundable if bet is taken down)
$51 place-to-lose wins $25 on 4/10 (IE: $1 vig-on-win which is refundable if bet is taken down)

You can calculate the house advantage using the model of "place to lose bets" optimized to have the lowest house edges at these specific bet-amounts where the vigorish can be rounded down to $1 in this special case. It's worse when winning multiples of $20, but consistent. That's the next best situation to be in on the edge.

BEST-CASE HA%:
===========
6/8: 1/(31+25) = 1.78571% HA
5/9: 1/(37+24) = 1.63934% HA
4/10: 1/(51+25) = 1.31579% HA

HA% for winning multiple of $20
=====================
6/8: 1/(25+20) = 2.22222% HA
5/9: 1/(31+20) = 1.96078% HA
4/10: 1/(41+20) = 1.63934% HA

Only one of these bets has a HA% low enough to be competitive with the pass-line without odds and/or a COME bet, which should be obvious.

The best time to bet these bets is when you genuinely feel that you can reasonably expect that more or less than the average number of pips are appearing on any random facial outcome of the dice. In those cases where the dice are not properly balanced at the time of manufacture, it is believed that there may possibly be some exposure to the casino. The exposure would be most likely to be available on the four or on the ten based on whether more (lay the four) or less (lay the ten) that the average number of pips are showing up.

That is:

Speculation 1: if want to bet that the "pips are lighter than the transparent resin" you should lay ten (one-face more likely face-up; six-face more likely face-down)

and

Speculation 2: if you want to bet the pips are HEAVIER than the transparent resin, you would want to lay the four (six-face more likely face-up; one-face more likely face-down).

I have made and I have been informed others have made as well, a spreadsheet where you can input the dice faces observed and show the house advantage under a variety of circumstances for the probability of a given facial outcome from a "stick of non-random dice" in play where the "modeled nonrandomness" is uniform among all cubes in the stick.

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