Vig on win only Vegas craps games?

What Vegas (not just the strip, anywhere in the greater Las Vegas Metro area) casino's charge vig only on wins in craps (lay and/or buy bets)? I've seen some old reports, but they always seem to have changed.

Quote: billionaireben

What Vegas (not just the strip, anywhere in the greater Las Vegas Metro area) casino's charge vig only on wins in craps (lay and/or buy bets)? I've seen some old reports, but they always seem to have changed.

I don’t know about lays, but both Aria and Ballegio charged vig on win for buying the 4/10, when I was there recently. And Aria let me buy the 5/9 if I asked special for it, though it confused the hell out of the box men.

You can actually buy the 5/9?? Usually you get the deer in the headlights look!

Quote: DeMango

You can actually buy the 5/9?? Usually you get the deer in the headlights look!

Had to call the pit boss over the first time. He agreed I could switch from place to buy when hit $50. Not sure if that’s always policy or he just let me do it. Put a little “buy” Lammers on it and everything.

Quote: DeMango

You can actually buy the 5/9?? Usually you get the deer in the headlights look!

I would imagine that anything that confuses an inexperienced crew would slow things down more than its worth.

Quote: DeMango

You can actually buy the 5/9?? Usually you get the deer in the headlights look!

In PA you can buy the 6 and 8 if you want.

Quote: FleaStiff

I would imagine that anything that confuses an inexperienced crew would slow things down more than its worth.

that $50 nine pays $73. Worth quite a bit at green chip and above levels. $5 more per $100 action.

CET & Stevens(The D & GG) charge vig on wins.

Quote: wilbsmitt

CET & Stevens(The D & GG) charge vig on wins.

At some point in time, it would be nice to have a list of casinos and their rules. Buy outside, vig up front or vig on win. Maybe a separate list for 5/9. Must be a very small list for that.

Can't speak for Lays. I commonly Buy 4/10.

I've been to the Aria, MGM Grand, and Bellagio within the last year. They are all vig on win only for 4/10. They also Round Down fifty cents, so your best value, I believe, would be $30, $50, or $70, at $1, $2, and $3 vigs respectively. There's some difference on this (sometimes they'll cut it off at $25 on the $1 vig), so I will generally ask the dealer how much I will have to drop for a certain amount and determine my value.

I once asked to Buy 5 / 9 at the Aria and similar to some other posters here I got confused looks and I was told that I could not do it. They then told me if I wanted to do it, it would be vig up front, which would always be worse than placing. They didn't seem to comprehend that the vig could be paid on win only on 5 / 9, and told me that in 30 years of dealing they'd never heard of such a thing. Obviously - not true - but it was a confusing enough exchange for me to never bring it up again. I remember some other guy at the table started talking to me like I was an idiot - it left a real cluster.

I have gambled at a couple places downtown (I believe it was maybe the Four Queen's and The D? not sure) and they were vig up front. I do not remember exactly where I was, and if someone has better information I would defer to them. I remembered being surprised because I thought that Downtown was generally friendlier to gamblers, but not in that situation as it basically cripples making a 4 / 10 bet if you're trying for a reasonable house advantage.

Pressing the four and ten with vig on the win is one of the MOST effective compound edge strategies in craps.

In general you want higher pay multiples at a given house edge.

You also want lower house edges at the same pay multiple.

The buy on the 4 and 10 at $25 or $50 bet levels has a house advantage of 1.33% -- lower than the pass line, adding to that a double pay multiple, it's winning on two fronts simultaneously. A house edge lower than don't pass and paying double on a win less the Vig is a great combination.

Keep in mind that $25 and $50 buy bets are a special case. Most casinos will charge $5 vig per $100, but the change left over in a bet amount after dividing the bet amount by 100 may still get a $0.25 or $0.50 discount

For example: $100 buy bet -- vig is $5 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $195
$20 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $1 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $39 in chips (1.67%) (39x1)
$25 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $1 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $49 in chips (1.33%)
$40 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $2 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $78 in chips (1.67%) (39x2)
$50 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $2 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $98 in chips (1.33%)
$60 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $3 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $117 in chips (1.67%) (39x3)
$80 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $4 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $156 in chips (1.67%) (39x4)
$100 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $5 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $195 in chips (1.67%) (39x5)

$25 or $50 would still be spent better with some combination including "free odds" -- but if you are playing to be comp'd or to be rated with some action, the four and ten are the best places to put your money assuming that they comp at least as well for the buy bets as they do for the pass line. Buy bets, per dollar, are cheaper at $25 and $50 than the pass line.

Quote: Ahigh

Pressing the four and ten with vig on the win is one of the MOST effective compound edge strategies in craps.

In general you want higher pay multiples at a given house edge.

You also want lower house edges at the same pay multiple.

The buy on the 4 and 10 at $25 or $50 bet levels has a house advantage of 1.33% -- lower than the pass line, adding to that a double pay multiple, it's winning on two fronts simultaneously. A house edge lower than don't pass and paying double on a win less the Vig is a great combination.

Keep in mind that $25 and $50 buy bets are a special case. Most casinos will charge $5 vig per $100, but the change left over in a bet amount after dividing the bet amount by 100 may still get a $0.25 or $0.50 discount

For example: $100 buy bet -- vig is $5 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $195
$20 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $1 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $39 in chips (1.67%) (39x1)
$25 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $1 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $49 in chips (1.33%)
$40 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $2 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $78 in chips (1.67%) (39x2)
$50 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $2 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $98 in chips (1.33%)
$60 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $3 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $117 in chips (1.67%) (39x3)
$80 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $4 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $156 in chips (1.67%) (39x4)
$100 buy bet on the 4 -- vig is $5 on the win -- so the dealer will hand you $195 in chips (1.67%) (39x5)

$25 or $50 would still be spent better with some combination including "free odds" -- but if you are playing to be comp'd or to be rated with some action, the four and ten are the best places to put your money assuming that they comp at least as well for the buy bets as they do for the pass line. Buy bets, per dollar, are cheaper at $25 and $50 than the pass line.

This is a great post and I second everything you've said.

I would add two small things. In terms of house edge, you want high multiples and low house edge per resolved bet, as you say. If you're playing for ratings, you also want a low number of resolved bets per hour. The field is an even money bet with a reasonable house edge, but it resolves every single roll. A buy bet on four ten doesn't resolve at all on the come out and then once it's in play it resolves as a win on 3/36 combinations and as a loss on 6/36 combinations, otherwise it's a push. This is better than any other number because five six eight nine resolve more often and every time it resolves in your favor you give a house edge. Every time there is a push the casino gets no house edge, but you're still getting rated on that full amount.

Second, some places will let you stretch your one dollar vig up to 35 or even 40. It's worth asking a dealer what the max bet is for a one dollar drop. At Hollywood Casino in Columbus Ohio they will stretch your $1 to $40, which is very player friendly. Other places will round down anything that isn't a full dollar. You just might want to check as to the rounding rules because it can have a significant impact on house advantage.

Quote: dalsanto3

...some places will let you stretch your one dollar vig up to 35 or even 40.

Thanx to dal and AHigh for their posts. I knew all that, but I think I understand it more completely now, mostly because of how both of you explained it. As a bottom-feeder, I don't often Buy numbers. But, placing $12 bets on both the Six and the Eight, I'm spending almost the same amount of money. Hmmm...

Does anyone know whether south Mississippi casinos charge $1.00 Vig on 4-10 Buy bets of $35 or $40? My guess is that they are not as generous as dal's Ohio casino.

All casinos charge $2 for the $40 bet, if less somebody needs to be fired. As far as known, you can get away with $1 vig for $35 buy on 4/10 at all Biloxi casinos. And they all start buys at $20 except Treasure Bay at $10 and Island View where 5/9 buys start at $50. (WTF?)

Quote: DeMango

All casinos charge $2 for the $40 bet, if less somebody needs to be fired. As far as known, you can get away with $1 vig for $35 buy on 4/10 at all Biloxi casinos. And they all start buys at $20 except Treasure Bay at $10 and Island View where 5/9 buys start at $50. (WTF?)

I'm just telling you the stated policy at one casino in Ohio. It wasn't a rogue dealer. You could walk in there right now and get the same thing and I assure you no one would be fired. I have never found a $40 for $1 vig anywhere else.

That being said I believe that DeMango is right that you should concentrate on places that will give you $35 or $30 for one dollar, vig on win only.

Vig on win only (4 and 10) at most Station Casinos properties. Both Buy and Lay.

Quote: FCBLComish

Vig on win only (4 and 10) at most Station Casinos properties. Both Buy and Lay.

One thing that I liked about Stations was that they made your green chips feel like they were worth more when most were only using red and sandy-brown.

The free bets at the Stations Property generally made it worth a weekly trip for most of the years I lived there. I appreciated the casino's generosity to the locals.

Quote: FCBLComish

Vig on win only (4 and 10) at most Station Casinos properties. Both Buy and Lay.
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I don’t know where you got this but I’ve always been charged up front for every number at red rock when I lay.

That being said it would be nice to know who doesn’t charge vig up front on lay bets

I saw a video of live craps play yesterday and the player was at a $25 table, with $5 prop bets, and he would bet $160 across minus the point which was on the PL. He'd add $5 to the 5, 9 on a win, add $6 to the 6, 8 on a win, but add $25 to the 4,10 on a win. He bought in for $1,090. He'd parlay the hard ways, so $5 to $50 to win $450 on the hard 6, 8 and $5 to $40 to win $280 on the hard 4, 10. For odds, he'd bet $105 on the 6, 8 so he'd get paid $126 on the odds win, he likes his green chips. He cashed out negligibly ahead after 45 minutes. But since he was the sole shooter at the table, he wasn't worried about point 7-outs too much. His 4, 10 wins were vig on a win.

Around me, with Bubble Craps, that has vig on a win, unlike the real table nearby.

Quote: ChumpChange

I saw a video of live craps play yesterday and the player was at a $25 table, with $5 prop bets, and he would bet $160 across minus the point which was on the PL. He'd add $5 to the 5, 9 on a win, add $6 to the 6, 8 on a win, but add $25 to the 4,10 on a win. He bought in for $1,090. He'd parlay the hard ways, so $5 to $50 to win $450 on the hard 6, 8 and $5 to $40 to win $280 on the hard 4, 10. For odds, he'd bet $105 on the 6, 8 so he'd get paid $126 on the odds win, he likes his green chips. He cashed out negligibly ahead after 45 minutes. But since he was the sole shooter at the table, he wasn't worried about point 7-outs too much. His 4, 10 wins were vig on a win.

Around me, with Bubble Craps, that has vig on a win, unlike the real table nearby.
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I actually like the bubble video craps terminal. The problem is the handpays over $1200 when I’m laying one or two numbers for $600

Is there a directory anywhere for casinos in Vegas who do not charge vig up front vs places that do?

Quote: WABJ11

Is there a directory anywhere for casinos in Vegas who do not charge vig up front vs places that do?
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The problem is that when you find those kinds of sites they are usually out of date.

Exactly why I’m asking if anybody knows? It doesn’t necessarily have to be one of those websites, but if somebody knows off the top of their head?

I'm pretty sure the Ceasars brand on the strip, and the Stevens brand downtown don't charge the vig upfront.

Quote: wilbsmitt

I'm pretty sure the Ceasars brand on the strip, and the Stevens brand downtown don't charge the vig upfront.
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If you mean buy and not lay, the MGM is on win on strip.

I dont know of any casino that charges the vig up front on the 4 and 10 buy bets.

Vigs are paid up front when lay bets are made.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I dont know of any casino that charges the vig up front on the 4 and 10 buy bets.

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4 Queens does, and possibly other downtown casinos.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I dont know of any casino that charges the vig up front on the 4 and 10 buy bets.

Vigs are paid up front when lay bets are made.
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Atlantic City is up front.

Everyone charges up front, as I've learned. Some casinos will do after the win on the 4 and 10 only, but this is rare.

MGM charging on every number after the win on lays/buys is a unicorn, lowers the house edge significantly, and a great thing. Makes the game much faster too.