AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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Thanks for this post from:
ForagerpetroglyphlildevilLucyMooseton
December 11th, 2018 at 1:21:24 AM permalink
When DarkOz originally started gloating about this play with limited details. IIRC I speculated what he was doing. As.memory serves me right, he said, I was getting very close.

We would have to go back and read all the thread conversation and perhaps bring PM's into the Mix.

From my understanding, his play was much better than what could/can be done in most other juissdictions due to the different state classes of machines.

His play worked because they were NOT class III machines. Nowadays, It may work to a lessor extent at various locations across the country. BUT, not if we keep yapping about it. It's getting to be slim pickings.

From what I understand, I have no reason to doubt he(DoarkOZ)had a fantastic +EV situation that had almost no downside and very little risk with a high profit margin(kudos to him)


This stuff happens from time to time. Some people get lucky being at the right place at the right time. Many times its just dumb luck. Sometimes you are actually looking for the holes in the system and find it. For instance(dumb luck), one of the most famous public glitches was the double up bug. That find was pure accident/ dumb luck discovered by a degenerate gambler.

I would never publicly talk about this stuff, unless I was 99.99% sure there's no chance it would happen again. Even then, I would wonder if that information would help educate EVERYONE in the future.

I have seen the same or similar mistakes made multiple times. I think Romes wants to talk about something that has been happening since before he was born and going on every since. His play may be dead, however, I think it's horrible to talk about since its still possible/probable.

Just alerting the casinos and gaming that AP are looking for this kinda stuff is bad news for AP's. DON'T TOSS IT IN THEIR FACE. Just play dumb. If you don't, IT WILL COME BACK TO BITE YOU IN THE ASS. Gaming agents now ask if you are an advantage player whenever you have a dispute. There's no reason they ask that other than to have a biased unfair ruling with a justification that you are an AP, thus, denying you a fair ruling.

I have found multiple things that have been incredibly +EV due to big holes the casino(s) have missed. Let's not educate everyone how to fix or exploit good plays and good opportunities.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Darksiders don't know or learn the plays before AP's tag the casino. They learn after AP's do their thing and brag then about it.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Dec 11, 2018
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
IndyJeffrey
IndyJeffrey
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December 11th, 2018 at 3:44:44 AM permalink
Quote: RS

How feasible is that though to be implemented? Iíve played a machine or two where the camera doesnít seem to be working, because it shows it in the playerís terminal. Granted, that could just mean that communication link is faulty or perhaps disabled for whatever reason. But that, to me, doesnít seem like the best way capture the data.

I have no idea how it works, but I never thought it was the camera that does it. Maybe it does. Idk, Iím not a science rocket for a reason.



Very feasible. It is OCR (Optical Character Recognition) technology. The same technology used by numerous apps on your 'smart' phone. An example: at work, I snap a picture of my (hotel, restaurant, etc.) receipt and the software parses out the text and imports into my expense report. And reading/interpreting a receipt is a bit more complicated than large dice.

Do I know the bubble craps uses OCR technology? No. But since we are all theorizing as to how this works at this point, OCR is my guess.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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December 11th, 2018 at 5:06:29 AM permalink
Quote: cowboy

Dead simple. Camera over top gives an image. Image is compared to one of six patterns for each dice. How many degrees the image is rotated doesn't matter. A computer can rotate and match a few thousand times before you can blink.


Yes, computer vision is a pretty complicated field, but simple stuff like this is possible with commodity sensors and software libraries.

I mentioned Ahigh's dice-throwing robot yesterday. In addition to the throwing arm, he also had a camera hooked up to a computer that would record the rolls automatically using computer vision. If a guy can do it in Perl on his home rig, I'm sure the big gaming companies can handle it.

Honestly, I assumed this is how the bubble craps machines read the dice rolls, but the RFID chips are just as plausible. Not an expert myself in gaming tech. Guess they could do both and compare the results for extra reliability.
Last edited by: AcesAndEights on Dec 11, 2018
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
OnceDear
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OnceDear
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December 11th, 2018 at 6:03:42 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Yes, computer vision is a pretty complicated field, but simple stuff like this is possible with commodity sensors and software libraries.

I mentioned Ahigh's dice-throwing robot yesterday. In addition to the throwing arm, he also had a camera hooked up to a computer that would record the rolls automatically using computer vision. If a guy can do it in Perl on his home rig, I'm sure the big gaming companies can handle it.

Honestly, I assumed this is how the bubble craps machines read the dice rolls, but the RFID chips are just as plausible. Not an expert myself is gaming tech. Guess they could do both and compare the results for extra reliability.

I honestly don't know the actual technology used, but my opinion as a lifelong techy guy it that it will be the simplest reliable option. (Keep it simple, stupid)... (TLDR Optical)

If it were RFID, then you either have to have one chip (centre of die) that can determine it's own spacial orientation, or 6 devices just under the faces of the die that either have such precise and limited radio range that only the one nearest a transceiver (in the landing area) would respond, or each is a tuned circuit, tuned to a different frequency. That's going to need a hell of a good calibration if it's distance based. The one chip solution has the significant obstacle that it is not a self powered device. RFID tags don't have batteries and are passive, being energised from the transceiver. For such a chip to determine it's own orientation without so much as a battery is pretty tricky.
I tend to think that if it's a wireless solution, then a flat coil tuned circuit under each face of the die would be the way to go. Only a face close to the landing area would respond because of limited range, and the transceiver would look for the frequency to match up to decide which face is down. But I still don't think it's that.
I very much doubt that it's any sort of ordinary magnetic detector. Magnets and sensors for magnets don't lend themselves to accurate calibration.
Optical reading... That's my favorite possibility. It's how the landing position of a roulette ball is determined for on screen displays. It's also how live dealer card games are electronically integrated (bar codes) and it's really very simple. Character recognition of the 1 to 6 dots on a horizontal die is absolute child's play.

Now, as to Darkoz's claim that some mysterious button moved or displaced the die. Has it not occurred to him that such a button might not very simply operate a servo that 'thumps' or vibrates the landing area so as to cause the dice to rattle free from it's inappropriate, non-flat position so that it just shakes free and lands in a way that can let it be read and let the game re-commence? That would be an obvious feature to build in to a game where a human operator touching the dice would be construed as tampering. That doesn't mean that any system or computer is rigging the die to land any particular way.
Take care out there. Spare a thought for the newly poor who were happy in their world just a few days ago, but whose whole way of life just collapsed..
darkoz
darkoz
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December 11th, 2018 at 6:20:44 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

When DarkOz originally started gloating about this play with limited details. IIRC I speculated what he was doing. As.memory serves me right, he said, I was getting very close.

We would have to go back and read all the thread conversation and perhaps bring PM's into the Mix.

From my understanding, his play was much better than what could/can be done in most other juissdictions due to the different state classes of machines.

His play worked because they were NOT class III machine. Nowadays, It may work to a lessor extent at various locations across the country. BUT, not if we keep yapping about it. It's getting slim pickings.

From what I understand, I have no reason to doubt he(DoarkOZ)had a fantastic +EV situation that had almost no downside and very little risk with a high profit margin(kudos to him)


This stuff happens from time to time. Some people get lucky being at the right place at the right time. Many times its just dumb luck. Sometimes you are actually looking for the holes in the system and find it. For instance(dumb luck), one of the most famous public glitches was the double up bug. That find was pure accident/ dumb luck discovered by a degenerate gambler.

I would never publicly talk about this stuff, unless I was 99.99% sure there's no chance it would happen again. Even then, I would wonder if that information would help educate EVERYONE in the future.

I have seen the same or similar mistakes made multiple times. I think Romes wants to talk about something that has been happening since before he was born and going on every since. His play may be dead, however, I think it's horrible to talk about.since its still possible/probable.

Just alerting casinos and gaming AP are looking for this stuff is bad news for AP's. DON'T TOSS IT IN THEIR FACE. Just play dumb. If you don't, IT WILL COME BACK TO BITE YOU IN THE ASS. Gaming agents now ask if you are an advantage player whenever you have a dispute. There's a reason they ask that other than a biased unfair ruling with a justification that you are an AP, thus, denying you a fair ruling.

I have found multiple things that have been incredibly +EV due to big holes the casino(s) have missed. Let's not educate everyone how to fix or exploit good plays and good opportunities.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Darksiders don't know or learn the plays before AP's tag the casino. They learn after AP's do their thing and brag then about it.



The NY AP move has nothing to do with Class 3 vs. Class 2 machines or any class

The NYS law I mentioned was nothing to do with class gaming.

Its so extremely rare that from my observation that I doubt there is more than a single digits percentage of it happening somewhere else

FYI - the law hasnt changed. The ability to take advantage of it was plugged due to a tangentially related "bug" being discovered by a plurality of people which forced their hand
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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December 11th, 2018 at 9:49:23 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

...a servo that 'thumps' or vibrates the landing area so as to cause the dice to rattle free from it's inappropriate, non-flat position so that it just shakes free and lands in a way that can let it be read ...



This was my experience with a "Shoot To Win" machine in Nevada. One die would lay up on an edge against the bubble. The machine would lock up until a tech came to open the cabinet, and reset it. He didn't open the bubble, but appeared to put the machine into a "reset" mode that triggered the servos to bounce the floor a few times.

My guess is that the dice are read via OCR and not RFID because reading two dice accurately via RFID would be very tricky due to the use of a shaking platform that would have to contain the sensors.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
cwazy
cwazy
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December 11th, 2018 at 10:01:05 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

This was my experience with a "Shoot To Win" machine in Nevada. One die would lay up on an edge against the bubble. The machine would lock up until a tech came to open the cabinet, and reset it. He didn't open the bubble, but appeared to put the machine into a "reset" mode that triggered the servos to bounce the floor a few times.

My guess is that the dice are read via OCR and not RFID because reading two dice accurately via RFID would be very tricky due to the use of a shaking platform that would have to contain the sensors.



Interblock is read by OCR. Aruze is either magnetic paint (per a technician) or RFID. This is why the Aruze machines lock up FAR more often than the Interblock machines. OCR is more reliable than counting on the dice coming to rest perfectly flat.
Wizard
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Thanks for this post from:
Ayecarumbabeachbumbabs
December 11th, 2018 at 10:07:28 AM permalink
I asked Ahigh this question and he said they use RFID chips and mentioned this patent, DICE WITH RFID TAGS AND DICE RECOGNIZING SYSTEM FOR RECOGNIZING DICE WITH RFID TAGS

Patent No.: US 8,210,924 B2
Date of Patent: Jul. 3, 2012
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Zcore13
Zcore13
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December 11th, 2018 at 10:15:15 AM permalink
Hmmm, so his claim of magnets and magic moving dice when the tech came are most likely false. More conspiracy thwarted.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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December 11th, 2018 at 10:23:59 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Hmmm, so his claim of magnets and magic moving dice when the tech came are most likely false. More conspiracy thwarted.


ZCore13



Strange things happen around slot techs. I've had three experiences that give me pause to what they can do. Logic says they should have no control on a result, but it's happened enough over the years to make me wonder.

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