Shoot To Win Vulnerability
Since changes like this are rarely done unless there is a need, it would seem that the sizable number of machines that still have the completely flat platform have some kind of vulnerability that Aruze considered serious enough to design and deploy a new platform to counter. Does anyone know what the vulnerability is? I have an idea, but have not done enough testing/research to make a mathematically sound conclusion.
Sometimes the dice lean up against the glass so that the outcome of the roll can't be determined by the unit. You can imagine the complaints when that undetected roll appears to most likely be the point and/or hardway. My guess is a dip in the middle of the platform reduces the number of undetermined rolls.
PS real table craps can be beaten. Ask mustangsally
Quote: RogerKintYeah let me go ahead and spell out that vulnerability on a public forum that gets regularly analyzed by casino personnel ;)
Sometimes the dice lean up against the glass so that the outcome of the roll can't be determined by the unit. You can imagine the complaints when that undetected roll appears to most likely be the point and/or hardway. My guess is a dip in the middle of the platform reduces the number of undetermined rolls.
PS real table craps can be beaten. Ask mustangsally
The dip I am referring to does not help with the situation you are talking about. It doesn't extend to the edges - only about 1/6th of the platform (in the center) has the dip. It seems to be there to increase randomness of the roll, which of course implies that the flat platform wasn’t random enough to protect the game, and somebody was beating it. My question is...if someone was beating the flat platform, how were they doing it? The fact that there is a problem with the flat platform is apparently already known by Aruze anyway, so I actually don’t see a problem with discussing it openly.
However you are making an assumption as to purpose. It may be something unrelated. Perhaps the sensors for detecting dice pips work better this way or some internal game mechanics fit inside better or even the internal computer has a sleeker shape that required the change
There may be a.number of reasons for such a change. Either way its somewhat moot if aruze is pulling the old versions
The dice don’t always roll when the “tingler” is activated. This means one or both will be tossed straight up, rather than at an angle. I think this is akin to a Craps table toss failing to hit the back wall.
Quote: AyecarumbaJust speculating about a vulnerability...
The dice don’t always roll when the “tingler” is activated. This means one or both will be tossed straight up, rather than at an angle. I think this is akin to a Craps table toss failing to hit the back wall.
Well, that's absolutely true. All rolls are counted (unlike at a craps table where a roll can be invalidated), and I have seen quite a few where the dice fail to roll at all, and many many more where 1 die stays with whatever was on top and the other rolls. I'm not sure statistically how often this happens though....not sure whether it's enough to actually swing the edge toward the player. I was thinking along the same lines though. It would be interesting to take a video of one of these things for like an hour and watch the position when rolled etc to see if you can minimize the chance of the dice rolling away from what you want when you shoot.
Quote: darkozEither way its somewhat moot if aruze is pulling the old versions
They aren't pulling all of them though. One casino in Vegas, for example, has two of these machines. One is flat, the other isn't. There are several in other jurisdictions that are still flat as well. Maybe they're offering it to casinos as an optional enhancement.
Quote: cwazyThey aren't pulling all of them though. One casino in Vegas, for example, has two of these machines. One is flat, the other isn't. There are several in other jurisdictions that are still flat as well. Maybe they're offering it to casinos as an optional enhancement.
Then that should answer your question as to whether this design change was due to suspected AP vulnerability. No way do they go to that trouble and then fail to replace all the machines
Since you have seen some old and new side by side i would theorize they have changed the design for aesthetic purposes and are replacing machines as needed. Similar to how trains on a subway line have older models fazed out as they are replaced by newer models so u see first a mixture and then eventually nothing but the newer model
Quote: darkozThen that should answer your question as to whether this design change was due to suspected AP vulnerability. No way do they go to that trouble and then fail to replace all the machines
Since you have seen some old and new side by side i would theorize they have changed the design for aesthetic purposes and are replacing machines as needed. Similar to how trains on a subway line have older models fazed out as they are replaced by newer models so u see first a mixture and then eventually nothing but the newer model
I don’t think the manufacturer would go through the trouble of changing the platform (which involves extensive testing to verify that it produces random results) for purely aesthetic reasons. I suspect results from the old design were not as “random” as expected.
Can you provide any proof of this?Quote: WatchMeWinThese bubble craps machine games are designed and programed to beat the player. They are not random rolls and therefore I stay way. I would only play the game if there is not a real craps table in the casino. Ives seen the dice spin out of its set position multiple times until it found its 7 out position. Hard to win when you have the machine predicting your outcome. And as far as electronic craps goes, one has to be absolutely crazy to play that and think you can beat it. Again, predetermined payouts and outcomes.
This, just like people claiming live crap table dice are loaded for 7-outs is just hogwash. If the machine was fixed to roll more 7's, then wouldn't playing the dark side be massively profitable? My end point is, if any dice or machine were ever biased towards something, then someone would figure that out and pound that thing for all that it's worth.Quote: WatchMeWinThese bubble craps machine games are designed and programed to beat the player. They are not random rolls and therefore I stay way. I would only play the game if there is not a real craps table in the casino. Ives seen the dice spin out of its set position multiple times until it found its 7 out position. Hard to win when you have the machine predicting your outcome. And as far as electronic craps goes, one has to be absolutely crazy to play that and think you can beat it. Again, predetermined payouts and outcomes.
No. Ive seen it with my own eyes. And I would expect the game makers to assure the casinos that their electronic games give the house a guaranteed house edge.... just like slot machines, etc.Quote: AxelWolfCan you provide any proof of this?
Quote: RomesThis, just like people claiming live crap table dice are loaded for 7-outs is just hogwash. If the machine was fixed to roll more 7's, then wouldn't playing the dark side be massively profitable? My end point is, if any dice or machine were ever biased towards something, then someone would figure that out and pound that thing for all that it's worth.
To say that dice are loaded for 7 outs is absolutely ridiculous.. I agree. But the electronic games.... Ive seen it. Cant prove it... but I just stay away from it.
But you're avoiding my point... if you've seen the electronic game biased to 7-out... why wouldn't you just play from the dark side and CLEAN HOUSE???Quote: WatchMeWinTo say that dice are loaded for 7 outs is absolutely ridiculous.. I agree. But the electronic games.... Ive seen it. Cant prove it... but I just stay away from it.
Quote: WatchMeWinAnd I would expect the game makers to assure the casinos that their electronic games give the house a guaranteed house edge.... just like slot machines, etc.
Exactly....craps bets have built in house edge with random rolls. There's no need for a non-random number generator.
Quote: RomesBut you're avoiding my point... if you've seen the electronic game biased to 7-out... why wouldn't you just play from the dark side and CLEAN HOUSE???
My theory is that the machines have algorithms which detect which bets are placed placed more heavily and based upon what numbers are needed for the house win, that is the skewed outcome. Therefore, It is not just favored for a 7 out every time if there are more wagers on the dont... it could be opposite. Then the point is typically made depending on the players at the machine at any given time. Im not one to go around the table and see who is betting heavy on dont or come in order to determine where I want to place my bet.
If I were the game maker, this is absolutely how I would code. Its all legal and within their right to adjust however they like... just like slots payout percentage.
Again, Im not an insider. I dont know anyone who is part of the development team of the machines.... This is my opinion and based upon what I have seen , this is what I believe. Regardless, I stay away from the electronic games. Not a winning place for me.
You should get it on Video.Quote: WatchMeWinNo. Ive seen it with my own eyes. And I would expect the game makers to assure the casinos that their electronic games give the house a guaranteed house edge.... just like slot machines, etc.
How do you know its all legal? Do you have the laws in the jurisdiction you are talking about?Quote: WatchMeWin
Its all legal and within their right to adjust however they like... just like slots payout percentage.
From my understanding, this would not be legal in NV. They would have to adjust the payout odds to change the percentage.
Just like they would have to do in Video Poker.
Quote: AxelWolfHow do you know its all legal? Do you have the laws in the jurisdiction you are talking about?
From my understanding, this would not be legal in NV. They would have to adjust the payout odds to change the percentage.
Just like they would have to do in Video Poker.
Have you every seen or played bubble craps games? If so, are you saying that you dont believe that there are magnets, or bouncing platforms, or some way for the dice outcome to be altered... and if these machines did do this, then it would be illegal?
Quote: WatchMeWinHave you every seen or played bubble craps games? If so, are you saying that you dont believe that there are magnets, or bouncing platforms, or some way for the dice outcome to be altered... and if these machines did do this, then it would be illegal?
Any symbol in an electronic game that represents an actual object, i.e. dice or cards, is required by law to have odds identical to those real life objects.
Quote: gamerfreakAny symbol in an electronic game that represents an actual object, i.e. dice or cards, is required by law to have odds identical to those real life objects.
The odds are the same ... but the randomness of the rolls are not. In any event, I stick to real craps and real poker.
Quote: WatchMeWinThe odds are the same ... but the randomness of the rolls are not. In any event, I stick to real craps and real poker.
Sorry, but yes they are. You just don't understand random.
Quote: IbeatyouracesQuote: WatchMeWinThe odds are the same ... but the randomness of the rolls are not. In any event, I stick to real craps and real poker.
Sorry, but yes they are. You just don't understand random.
I am not so sure. I have seen about 5 players playing those machine craps now for almost 2 years 6-12 hours per day at the same exact Casino. I am not sure what they are up to but it has to be something. I wonder if those dice or rolls are loaded in some way??
Quote: IbeatyouracesQuote: WatchMeWinThe odds are the same ... but the randomness of the rolls are not. In any event, I stick to real craps and real poker.
Sorry, but yes they are. You just don't understand random.
How can you be so certain?
Quote: WatchMeWinHave you every seen or played bubble craps games? If so, are you saying that you dont believe that there are magnets, or bouncing platforms, or some way for the dice outcome to be altered... and if these machines did do this, then it would be illegal?
Here's a point where I disagree with you (besides laws requiring fair gaming prohibiting this):
Casinos make money on craps that get fewer hands/hour, using up 4 skilled staff to do it (box, stick, 2 dealers). No way that machine costs more per hour to rent than it costs to run a live table day in and day out, and the machine runs 24/7.
So if they're already making money, why risk a gaffed table? Whether legal or not, their reputation would be on the line.
Quote: beachbumbabsHere's a point where I disagree with you (besides laws requiring fair gaming prohibiting this):
Casinos make money on craps that get fewer hands/hour, using up 4 skilled staff to do it (box, stick, 2 dealers). No way that machine costs more per hour to rent than it costs to run a live table day in and day out, and the machine runs 24/7.
So if they're already making money, why risk a gaffed table? Whether legal or not, their reputation would be on the line.
I had someone tell me this on e-baccarat. Ot was stadium style and you could see how much was bet on banker vs player right up to the last second
So i waited until the last second then bet huge against the side that had the most wagering
Its scary but i did seem to hav a larger number of wins.
When both sides were about equal i bet tie and won each of 3 different times
However im pretty sure it was just a fluke. I was doing it to disprove this guy and wasnt able to lol
Quote: WatchMeWinThese bubble craps machine games are designed and programed to beat the player. They are not random rolls and therefore I stay way. I would only play the game if there is not a real craps table in the casino. Ives seen the dice spin out of its set position multiple times until it found its 7 out position. Hard to win when you have the machine predicting your outcome. And as far as electronic craps goes, one has to be absolutely crazy to play that and think you can beat it. Again, predetermined payouts and outcomes.
You contradict yourself. Because it has been proven by experts that these games are not random, it is easy to win. One has to be crazy to think they could beat a dice game that does not have predetermined outcomes
Quote: TomGYou contradict yourself. Because it has been proven by experts that these games are not random, it is easy to win. One has to be crazy to think they could beat a dice game that does not have predetermined outcomes
You are saying that experts have proven that the rolls in the electronic dice, bubble craps, etc are predetermined? Fixed, so to speak? I would love to see the proof that you speak of. I agree that they are not random... You are proving my point... so what's your point? I havent spent the time to exploit it and find the way to capitalize on it....nor do I want to, as I mentioned. No contradiction. If someone spends the time and effort to beat the game, then that is great. I dont have that info other than my theory which I explained earlier... and I dont have the time to try and beat it.
Quote: TomGYou contradict yourself. Because it has been proven by experts that these games are not random, it is easy to win. One has to be crazy to think they could beat a dice game that does not have predetermined outcomes
I think what he is (incorrectly) saying is that the machine adjusts the odds of the dice on the fly, depending on what bets are placed, to maximize the house’s EV.
While that may be possible, I’m certain it is not happening.
Quote: TomGYou contradict yourself. Because it has been proven by experts that these games are not random, it is easy to win. One has to be crazy to think they could beat a dice game that does not have predetermined outcomes
The rolls can be non-random due to player interaction. Most E-Craps players don't look at the dice and just press the button at the first opportunity. Heck, a lot of the players are ploppies who are drunk and trying to have fun.
Then you have players timing the dice. One guy on another website claims he can avoid boxcars so they come up at a rate that is greater than 1 in 36 rolls. He's your typical dewey don't player who takes odds. He claims to lose money on E-Craps but make money from the slot club benefits.
He is the same guy posting photos of rolling a bunch of 6's, 7's & 8's. Something like 23 rolls out of 30.
Don't get me wrong. I love MustangSally but I speak English and she speaks Math.Quote: RogerKintPS real table craps can be beaten. Ask mustangsally
Quote: beachbumbabsCasinos make money on craps that get fewer hands/hour, using up 4 skilled staff to do it (box, stick, 2 dealers). No way that machine costs more per hour to rent than it costs to run a live table day in and day out, and the machine runs 24/7.
Actually I think a Dice Crew is FIVE skilled staff. The Box is pretty much there for his entire shift. The stickman and two base dealers rotate but there is usually a dealer on a twenty minute break. Often the stickman gets a break so he can recover from the ordeal of trying to get people to make bad bets. (lol).
Actually casinos love machines., They don't take vacations, demand health benefits or ever try to unionize. And casinos don't have to watch machines quite as closely as they have to watch sticky fingered humans.
But the money appears to be in "hands per hour". Casinos like to get more hands per hour from dealers but don't like making any Carpal Tunnel Syndrome payouts. So the cheapest and most reliable option is often to invest in machines and a slot technician to keep them running.
Quote: WatchMeWinMy theory is that the machines have algorithms which detect which bets are placed placed more heavily and based upon what numbers are needed for the house win, that is the skewed outcome. Therefore, It is not just favored for a 7 out every time if there are more wagers on the dont... it could be opposite. Then the point is typically made depending on the players at the machine at any given time. Im not one to go around the table and see who is betting heavy on dont or come in order to determine where I want to place my bet.
If I were the game maker, this is absolutely how I would code. Its all legal and within their right to adjust however they like... just like slots payout percentage.
Again, Im not an insider. I dont know anyone who is part of the development team of the machines.... This is my opinion and based upon what I have seen , this is what I believe. Regardless, I stay away from the electronic games. Not a winning place for me.
I don't know how that would be legal in Nevada. It's the visual representation of dice, and therefore, must correspond to the probabilities of dice. At least, as I understand it, but I might be wrong.
If you were right, there'd still be no need to circle anything yourself. Just have a confederate do it and tell you what you should be betting. That would be perfectly legal, in this case, since you're just basing your bet on what the other players are doing.
Quote: Mission146I don't know how that would be legal in Nevada. It's the visual representation of dice, and therefore, must correspond to the probabilities of dice. At least, as I understand it, but I might be wrong.
You are correct that it would not be allowed in Nevada. Also, any manufacturer that did that would probably not be allowed to sell any machines in Nevada.
I got on a full game one night with $20. Played strictly don't with odds and turned it into over $500, all while the other players lost their asses playing pass lines and place bets.
Like I said, there is no proof of this, but I do know if I see a game with every seat but 1 taken, Im stopping to play the don't every single time!
Maybe random luck. Maybe just coincidence. I'm gonna ride it till it doesn't work though!
Now this is the type of post I can get behind, it sounds logical and level-headed.Quote: mwalz9I have spent a lot of time playing "Shoot to Win" craps and while I have no scientific or mathematical proof to say these machines are rigged, I can attest I have made tons of money playing the Don't when the game is full of other players, and I have lost money playing the don't alone.
I got on a full game one night with $20. Played strictly don't with odds and turned it into over $500, all while the other players lost their asses playing pass lines and place bets.
Like I said, there is no proof of this, but I do know if I see a game with every seat but 1 taken, Im stopping to play the don't every single time!
Maybe random luck. Maybe just coincidence. I'm gonna ride it till it doesn't work though!
.Quote: mwalz9I have spent a lot of time playing "Shoot to Win" craps and while I have no scientific or mathematical proof to say these machines are rigged, I can attest I have made tons of money playing the Don't when the game is full of other players, and I have lost money playing the don't alone.
I got on a full game one night with $20. Played strictly don't with odds and turned it into over $500, all while the other players lost their asses playing pass lines and place bets.
Like I said, there is no proof of this, but I do know if I see a game with every seat but 1 taken, Im stopping to play the don't every single time!
Maybe random luck. Maybe just coincidence. I'm gonna ride it till it doesn't work though!
Sounds reasonable. If you are wrong playing ‘don’t with odds’ is expected to lose well less than 1% of your total bet action. And if you are correct and the game is rigged, why not take advantage?
If you are assuming it is rigged to have the casino win, do you keep your bets low enough that the sum of the losses of the other players always exceeds your win? Meaning if there are 5 players betting $10, you won’t bet $200 against them?
