cwazy
Joined: Mar 18, 2016
• Posts: 178
December 13th, 2017 at 11:58:41 PM permalink
This post concerns the Aruze Shoot to Win machines, not regular craps tables (which are unbeatable). I have noticed that some, but not all, of these machines have recently been modified with a new style of platform that has a fairly significant dip in the middle. Before, the platforms on which the dice sit were completely flat.

Since changes like this are rarely done unless there is a need, it would seem that the sizable number of machines that still have the completely flat platform have some kind of vulnerability that Aruze considered serious enough to design and deploy a new platform to counter. Does anyone know what the vulnerability is? I have an idea, but have not done enough testing/research to make a mathematically sound conclusion.
RogerKint
Joined: Dec 5, 2011
• Posts: 1909
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December 14th, 2017 at 12:27:17 AM permalink
Yeah let me go ahead and spell out that vulnerability on a public forum that gets regularly analyzed by casino personnel ;)

Sometimes the dice lean up against the glass so that the outcome of the roll can't be determined by the unit. You can imagine the complaints when that undetected roll appears to most likely be the point and/or hardway. My guess is a dip in the middle of the platform reduces the number of undetermined rolls.

PS real table craps can be beaten. Ask mustangsally
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cwazy
Joined: Mar 18, 2016
• Posts: 178
December 14th, 2017 at 12:57:43 AM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

Yeah let me go ahead and spell out that vulnerability on a public forum that gets regularly analyzed by casino personnel ;)

Sometimes the dice lean up against the glass so that the outcome of the roll can't be determined by the unit. You can imagine the complaints when that undetected roll appears to most likely be the point and/or hardway. My guess is a dip in the middle of the platform reduces the number of undetermined rolls.

PS real table craps can be beaten. Ask mustangsally

The dip I am referring to does not help with the situation you are talking about. It doesn't extend to the edges - only about 1/6th of the platform (in the center) has the dip. It seems to be there to increase randomness of the roll, which of course implies that the flat platform wasn’t random enough to protect the game, and somebody was beating it. My question is...if someone was beating the flat platform, how were they doing it? The fact that there is a problem with the flat platform is apparently already known by Aruze anyway, so I actually don’t see a problem with discussing it openly.
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
• Posts: 8928
December 14th, 2017 at 7:32:19 AM permalink
If it was a beatable exploit that aruze is aware of they will most likely replace all their machines

However you are making an assumption as to purpose. It may be something unrelated. Perhaps the sensors for detecting dice pips work better this way or some internal game mechanics fit inside better or even the internal computer has a sleeker shape that required the change

There may be a.number of reasons for such a change. Either way its somewhat moot if aruze is pulling the old versions
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
• Posts: 6763
December 14th, 2017 at 3:14:06 PM permalink
The dice don’t always roll when the “tingler” is activated. This means one or both will be tossed straight up, rather than at an angle. I think this is akin to a Craps table toss failing to hit the back wall.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
cwazy
Joined: Mar 18, 2016
• Posts: 178
December 14th, 2017 at 3:23:06 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

The dice don’t always roll when the “tingler” is activated. This means one or both will be tossed straight up, rather than at an angle. I think this is akin to a Craps table toss failing to hit the back wall.

Well, that's absolutely true. All rolls are counted (unlike at a craps table where a roll can be invalidated), and I have seen quite a few where the dice fail to roll at all, and many many more where 1 die stays with whatever was on top and the other rolls. I'm not sure statistically how often this happens though....not sure whether it's enough to actually swing the edge toward the player. I was thinking along the same lines though. It would be interesting to take a video of one of these things for like an hour and watch the position when rolled etc to see if you can minimize the chance of the dice rolling away from what you want when you shoot.
cwazy
Joined: Mar 18, 2016
• Posts: 178
December 14th, 2017 at 3:25:16 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Either way its somewhat moot if aruze is pulling the old versions

They aren't pulling all of them though. One casino in Vegas, for example, has two of these machines. One is flat, the other isn't. There are several in other jurisdictions that are still flat as well. Maybe they're offering it to casinos as an optional enhancement.
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
• Posts: 8928
December 15th, 2017 at 4:31:15 AM permalink
Quote: cwazy

They aren't pulling all of them though. One casino in Vegas, for example, has two of these machines. One is flat, the other isn't. There are several in other jurisdictions that are still flat as well. Maybe they're offering it to casinos as an optional enhancement.

Then that should answer your question as to whether this design change was due to suspected AP vulnerability. No way do they go to that trouble and then fail to replace all the machines

Since you have seen some old and new side by side i would theorize they have changed the design for aesthetic purposes and are replacing machines as needed. Similar to how trains on a subway line have older models fazed out as they are replaced by newer models so u see first a mixture and then eventually nothing but the newer model
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
• Posts: 6763
December 15th, 2017 at 9:04:26 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Then that should answer your question as to whether this design change was due to suspected AP vulnerability. No way do they go to that trouble and then fail to replace all the machines

Since you have seen some old and new side by side i would theorize they have changed the design for aesthetic purposes and are replacing machines as needed. Similar to how trains on a subway line have older models fazed out as they are replaced by newer models so u see first a mixture and then eventually nothing but the newer model

I don’t think the manufacturer would go through the trouble of changing the platform (which involves extensive testing to verify that it produces random results) for purely aesthetic reasons. I suspect results from the old design were not as “random” as expected.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Mikey75
Joined: Mar 1, 2013