Don't Pass/Don't Come and $640 later

Thank you all in advanced.

I have been reading and learning from this website for quite some time but I had a pretty bad run today and I just want some advice for the future reference of when to cut my losses and run. I followed the strategy of playing strictly Don't Pass/Don't Come and maxing out the odds with a base bet of $5 and 6x (for the odds). The whole thing took about 3 1/2 hours which by the end I had zero. I followed all the steps and I believe there were no obvious mistake made during the period (other than losing everything).

Initial Bank role $640
Steps I took:
$5 Don't Pass, then, after point set, $30 on Odds
$5 Don't Come, then, $30 on Odds

The highest the "winnings" got was about $740 (including the original $640) and that was after going down about half. As I previously alluded to I lost everything. Any recommendations?


Thank you

Stop gambling?

Quote: ssscj80

Thank you all in advanced.

I have been reading and learning from this website for quite some time but I had a pretty bad run today and I just want some advice for the future reference of when to cut my losses and run. I followed the strategy of playing strictly Don't Pass/Don't Come and maxing out the odds with a base bet of $5 and 6x (for the odds). The whole thing took about 3 1/2 hours which by the end I had zero. I followed all the steps and I believe there were no obvious mistake made during the period (other than losing everything).

Initial Bank role $640
Steps I took:
$5 Don't Pass, then, after point set, $30 on Odds
$5 Don't Come, then, $30 on Odds

The highest the "winnings" got was about $740 (including the original $640) and that was after going down about half. As I previously alluded to I lost everything. Any recommendations?


Thank you

There is no way to beat craps since it is a negative expectation game. Every bet you make on a craps table costs you money over the long run so it is inevitable that you will go broke. How quickly that happens is just a matter of variance. You could last quite a long time or you might lose it very quickly but the only thing we know for sure is eventually you will lose it all if you continue to play this game.

So if your going to continue to play craps just understand that it cannot be beat in the long run and treat it as an entertainment cost. Some games can be beaten craps is not one of them. (Unless you cheat)

Hope this helps!

RD

Quote: ssscj80

I have been reading and learning from this website for quite some time but I had a pretty bad run today and I just want some advice for the future reference of when to cut my losses and run.

it would not be meaningful to cut your losses and run since i am assuming you mean that you would come back on another day to play. if you play the same amount of time it doesn't matter which days you play on. however, if cutting your losses for the day means that you would spend less time overall playing then that would be a good idea. leave with the smallest win that is acceptable to you. you are playing a negative expectancy house game and even though you are playing against a very small house edge because you are taking free odds it is not possible to devise a money management or bet selection system that will win in the long run. anyone who says otherwise is mistaken. if you are having fun and not losing too much overall and enjoying the game because you sometimes win that's great. it's very important to be realistic.

If you play the don't pass, and don't lay any odds....

followed by the don't come, and again, don't lay any odds...

followed by a second don't come(if the above two not resolved), and again, don't lay any odds...

Stop at that point, with three points established, and wait for the seven out....(if one of the three hits, you start again with another don't come/pass)..the magic number is three points in action.

You can indeed make a living at craps. It's incredibility boring but money is money, food is food, shelter is shelter.

Quote: NokTang

If you play the don't pass, and don't lay any odds....

followed by the don't come, and again, don't lay any odds...

followed by a second don't come(if the above two not resolved), and again, don't lay any odds...

Stop at that point, with three points established, and wait for the seven out....(if one of the three hits, you start again with another don't come/pass)..the MAGIC number is three points in action.

You can indeed make a living at craps. It's incredibility boring but money is money, food is food, shelter is shelter.

"that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

your bogus claims are dismissed. you are unbelievably touting MAGIC numbers. why don't you give everybody a break dude.

Quote: ssscj80

.. I just want some advice for the future reference of when to cut my losses and run...

I think reflecting on your "goals" would be helpful:
1) Make an obscene amount of money / Break the bank.
2) Make my gambling money last as long as possible while I soak up free drinks and qualify for comps.
3) What is "gambling money"... If I don't win, the rent doesn't get paid.
4) Make x dollars.
5) Have fun.

So depending on where you match up above (or what mix of the above suits you), the advice would be:
1) Never stop. In fact, you should continue to place more Come bets with max odds, or put the whole nut on the line, and parlay it until the owner comes down with the deed to the joint.
2) Establish a session loss limit (e.g. $500) and stick to it. Only make a line bet without odds to stretch your bankroll.
3) Stop gambling and get help. Addiction is real and destroys lives.
4) Establish a session loss limit to go with your win goal. Your two bets are among the best the casino offers, but as has been mentioned above, are still tilted in the house's favor. Consider switching to >100% pay
back video poker, sports wagering or live poker if you want to take the edge back. Sports wagering and poker take skill and bankrolls to be positive, and even then luck could still gut you.
5) 3.5 hours for $640? That's on par with two rounds of resort golf or a helicopter ride to the Grand Canyon. All in all, did you have "fun" (Fun of winning time + free drinks + comps + admiration from inexperienced players as you explain why the Don'ts are a better wager than the Pass + excitement) > (Having to eat Subway instead of Lawry's + "ATM Walk of Shame")? If so, you may consider the money well spent. If not, consider other leisure activities like golf or sightseeing.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Only make a line bet without odds to stretch your bankroll.

Good advice in the post, and this line is good advice too, but I would modify it to say "you don't have to do full odds" ... that includes all the way up to "no odds", sure.

The only thing is though, is the line bets in Craps have very low variance. If you do no odds at all it is very boring. For myself I gamble less often instead so I can put something on the odds.

My 2 cents for the OP is take the better advice here - if you can figure out what is good and what is bad, maybe that is just a rite of passage you need to undertake. But you can also go to the Wizard of Odds site and compare the advice.

As for losing $6-700, get used to that or quit if the money is meaningful to you. The way you bet does say the day is coming when you'll win that sometimes too. It's the amount on average you lose that matters. Most of us wind up down in the long run, in my case it is roughly the amount I've been tipping over the years.

You were crushed by a wide variance.

You are in good company. The original Nick the Greek played Craps on the Dark side, but he had much better sense than you have regarding bankroll exposure per outcome.

You must control your variance by limiting your exposure per outcome. Wild swings of fortune are normal even with naked Flat bets. When you are also laying Odds and risking more than you can win, the swings are much wilder. You were laying a huge five percent on each number. Only 20 net losses wiped you out. Your exposure per outcome should have been less than half that percentage.

With a table stake of $640 and a Dark preference, your patience and endurance technique calls for Flat bets of $5 and Odds bets of $6 or $12. Not until you have won an appreciable amount, at least half of your starting stake, should you consider boosting your exposure.

Think of yourself as awaiting your personal luck. You can play all day and go nowhere dramatic, waiting for your wagon to finally arrive. After it arrives, then you can begin to really play.

Thank you all for the guidance and I will keep it in mind as well as the commandment that the Wizard has which says to be ready to loose (paraphrasing).

Quote: pwcrabb

The original Nick the Greek played Craps on the Dark side, but he had much better sense than you have regarding bankroll exposure per outcome.

Nick the Greek lasted a long time but he eventually tapped out. He died broke. In his last days he was playing in $5 limit draw poker games. I read his biography. Great read. An amazing character.

Quote: ssscj80

I just want some advice for the future reference of when to cut my losses and run.

Hi,
Well. you already had some great advice about how stop losses, sessions and win goals don't mean a thing.
So, start with the premise that you have a limited entertainment budget and that you are buying entertainment time and an adrenaline rush or two. Some guys use maths, lots of care and actually aim to profit, long term, but you are not in that group if you are playing Baccarat.
I play Blackjack for similar entertainment. My casino is about 20 mins away, so my objective is to generally. . .
Get an hour or two of fun. At least two free drinks and a good laugh. I like to get a bit of the adrenaline from an occasional bigger bet.
My anticipated average loss is about £25 for that hour. That being either complete loss of my £150 session bankroll, or doubling or maybe more that bankroll, or ending an hour or two roughly even. The time limit is the measure. You wouldn't want to sit through a 5 hour film, and you wouldn't be pleased to just watch a 10 minute stage show. So aim for a session that fits your needs and pace your betting to fit that.
All of my expected outcomes are equally acceptable, and I realise that playing that way will tend to have about as many winning sessions as losers and that I'd be pretty gutted if half a dozen consecutive sessions had me go bust but it's all play money. The big error I could make, ( and we see it a lot ) would be to get ahead a bit and up my bets. That's destined to see me never walk out with a profit.
If you feel bad, or cannot afford to happily lose your session bankroll, you simply shouldn't be there at all.

Bet size. There's one guy frequents the casino that plays one £10 chip on roulette 0 as his single bet. That doesn't strike me as fun or worth the car journey. I find that with my modest session bankroll of maybe £150, I can tick over for an hour or two before busting or not busting, if my average bet is 1x or 2x table min of £5.
Some times I crash and burn in 20 minutes, sometimes I walk out with £300, which is just money to play with next time round.

Just don't ramp up your bets just because you win or lose. That's the road to ploppie oblivion.

John Patrick advised that if at any time you lose "three in a row, time to go."

John Patrick advised that if at any time you lose "three in a row, time to go."

Since it's a negative expectation game, duh, you should expect to lose.

As such, the best advice, is to never enter a casino.

Realistically, gambling is supposed to be entertainment and fun. You should cut your losses and run when it is no longer fun.

Quote: ssscj80

<snip>the Wizard has which says to be ready to loose (paraphrasing).

exactly
Why?
the house edge!
the only difference is how long it takes to go broke.

I simulated this B4
1 million players with $1000 bankroll
all 1 million lost their bankroll
some faster than others
but ALL were wiped out
(do not feel bad)

also doing just pass/come bets too.

bottom line
you are playing a game that is not fair.

play for fun
variance can B fun, can be horrible too.

thank you for sharing
Sally

Craps, like Blackjack, when played properly, can of course be won in the long term. It's called variance. You can bet on 10,000 rolls and come out a winner playing pass / come / don't pass / come. It's not likely but it's certainly more than possible. It's your preference really. Difficult to win in the long run when you're playing the middle.

There are lots of ways you can make money playing craps. It's called collusion.

Get to know a dealer. Play with the dealer. Offer him/her a cut.

The "Bellagio method":
Mumble your calls just before a roll. The dealer will book the call when the dice land and pay you.

The "Wynn method":
Put your dice on table and slide them down. Tip outrageously so that nobody cares.

There has to be more creative methods out there beside winning honestly.

Hi,
1 thing to help get you out of/avoid a loss situation: (not the only thing, just one important thing)

-Find a personal formula/method of labeling a hot shooter as a hot shooter so you can stop betting against them. This means get out. Wait for the next shooter, and get back in. It could mean get out, and wait for the next shooter, or something else. It could mean wait for something to happen, then get back in. You choose. This doesn't mean being psychic, and going on feeling, or vibes.

*some will not bet again after the first point is won (and they lose their bet) this is their hot shooter label and they want no further part in it. (most common)
*some will only allow themselves up on 2 DontCome numbers at a time. Some allow three. (both are common) You choose.
*some will martingale up to a certain point, about 7 losses. (least common)
*make your own triggers to label a hot shooter, and get out

Hope that helps,
I am not a teacher, I do not teach, and do not come here to "share" my skillz but I just felt like sharing one of the probably top-5 things that help Don't Pass.

Good luck, take chances, live dangerously. This is the only place where that works.

Quote: lilredrooster

"that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

your bogus claims are dismissed. you are unbelievably touting MAGIC numbers. why don't you give everybody a break dude.

It works. It's boring. Try it, maybe you'll like it.

Quote: mustangsally

...bottom line
you are playing a game that is not fair.

I thought you used to make a point of saying you could and you (personally) have beaten craps? =)

Quote: Romes

I thought you used to make a point of saying you could and you (personally) have beaten craps? =)

yes so true with a loss rebate.
Heard that team went back to Baccarat.

IF the dice do what they should do, shooters have no influence on the outcomes, then a player MUST select more winning bets than losing. OP was dpass/dcome
robot betting

robots do not control all yet
Sally

Quote: mustangsally

...with a loss rebate...

You need to spend a lot of money to get stuff that would usually cost a lot of money, and maybe some free play?

Quote: Ayecarumba

You need to spend a lot of money to get stuff that would usually cost a lot of money, and maybe some free play?

no free play

at first, $250k to $500k was just right for both as a buy-in.
The casinos did not think they could lose, but did.
At the end it was over $2 million bankroll to start.

It was and still is a grind trying to double start bankroll or bust.
It was fun while it lasted.
Sally

Thank you Sally. What I find interesting is that the same variance that occasionally puts me up $30 on my $300 buy-in gets the $30,000 buy-in $3,000 +RFB & Cirque tickets close enough to get you wet. I've been told that it's all relative... until it isn't.

old time craps for 39 years since resorts opened in ac

1st off i never lost when table was in ice box or players just love betting pass line hardways field bets etc... and they all 7 out.

NUMBER 1 reason you lost betting don't come 1st off they are not his number his point is 9 thats it thats all you lay aginst you can wind up with 3 DC bets and he will hit all of them now you lost like $90 on a 15$ min. game YOU won the dont pass bet and lost $60 you placed DP $15 you lay $30 to win $20 more PERIOD>

ON straight cold table hopefully you have 5 players with couple hunny in chipos so you get 2 - 3 hours in.

some players time is longer than others because of others betting filed , come bets. hardways , horn bets all the stupid losing wagers offered.

Playing the lowest % edge of craps just bet pass line or dont pass line and Place bets like this ..

point is 10 your on pass line place 20$ behind to win $40 and YOUR $10 PB

the rest of numbers you bet all of them 4 5 6 8 and 9 thats $50 shotter holds dice just 10 minutes your making tons

4 pays 9-5 so give them a dollar to get $20 5 pays 3 -2 give them a 41 to get $10 6 n 8 pay 6 to 5 collect $12 9 pays 3-2 you win $15

Now the other side best way is to just wait till point is establihed and lay $41 against 4 or 10 $25 against 6 or 8 $31 aginst 5 or 9 YOU win $20 avoiding all the naturals and push on 12

also play both dont pass and pass line you can only get hurt with a 12 on a comeout and thats rare last night was playing in parx casino it's in bensalem pa 22 miles north of philly ...... they say it's stupid to play both ways but i find it better than laying $4 on any 7 to cover my $15 dp bet as i said 11 you lose the $15 and the 4 thats $19 loss it happens on come oouts.

last week was on a table staurday night late shooter comes out with 7 - 7 - 7 - 3 11 -7-7table is esatactic they won 5 bets lost one so they are all ahaed $60 point was 4 ...... i lay 82$ to win $40 throws a 5 rows a 9 then hi mickey mantle i scream 5- 2

7 out table collects abut $300 plus pays me $40 they won $260 or whatever aint got time to add up all those come bets odds hardways field bets etc...

FACT 39 years playing DONT pass I never loost never lost even on choppy tables where they make a pass then 7 out next time i made money starting with only $100 way back in 80's there was $5 minimum tables in Atlantic city NJ.
This was when they closed early am and opened at 8 am.

Guess what i wish that was same today in all casinos because in late hours midinght to 3 am your action or choices are limited.

GO home or go grab bite to eat grab some sleep in rooms or in your car and start next day in afternoon refrehed to go full day .

YES i have gotten in on players tables when making points most of times hoding dice for 10 mins or more and 7 out but won 15 place bets gawdthats sweet $100's won in 15 mins .

However i mostly hunt for that table where shooters are in prayer mode fumbling chips in hand begging for that 8 or 9 or 4 or 6 or 10 and all you hear now is from stick man or box is 7 ars ago they said 7 out or out 7 pay the donts ..

Today recently past 4 weeks was in 6 differnt casinos two in pa 4 in ac nj not one player was beting DP or laying any point.

average amount of shooters in each casino was 35 all tables going thatsc 210 players all betting pass lines hardways , field bets come bets fire bets etc... all losing $100's every table.

Trust me 39 years experince taught me weel lay the point after it's made minmum starting bank on a $15 minmum table is $200

or $150 hoping you start off winning 1st bet which is like guaranteed because you scouted that game and watched from your spot without betting until you saw 7 out's consistently.

Last night met up with guy i became friends with online lives far north in PA from phily we met at parx i got there at 1:40 am after work

I only had $130 so i was not comfy find out cannot play dont pass and pass at same time ey picked up my dont pass bet and left my pass line bet ..... i balked picked it up and walked away pit boss stops me after long discusiion he says ok i 'll let it go this time go back and play ...i told him this was no ignorance on my part there aint no signs posted about it i done it for decades in NJ tried finding out about PA casinos rules online today uh uh nope no info about it????

OK wind up going to another table because my friend Rob got murded was down $1200 of his $200 I was ok up at $30

finally a table hwre they 7 out most of time I waited for point and laid it ...... couple time my instinct said DONT play aginst shooter wow i was right they made thier points one was 9 other was a 10 but they 7 out next time and i do not bet aginst anyone twice in a row.

Quote: billy.joeseph

old time craps for 39 years since resorts opened in ac

Welcome to the forum. You are a real study in the kind of player who learned from scratch with his own experience, from other players, and from the dealers.

I hope you can give us plenty of good stories from over the years.

Quote:

at parx ... find out cannot play dont pass and pass at same time

Today mathematically sound information on how to play is readily available. I don't know if you know it, but you have come to a site where, well, that's kind of what it is all about. You may need a thick skin.

From that perspective, it is so stupid to not allow betting both sides that it makes you marvel. Do the ignoramuses running the place think that if half the players are right-side and the other half darkside that means they just break even? There can be very few places now like that. But I think there are a ton that will only rate you for comps one way when players play both ways - also completely unjustified.

Anyway, we'd love to hear some of those stories.

Quote: odiousgambit

From that perspective, it is so stupid to not allow betting both sides that it makes you marvel.

I think this all started when "match play" coupons and chips were popular. They also, at some shall we call them "beginners" banned betting with match play on the even money roulette options. Long story short so as not to bore you, a friend and I figured out how to beat them by simply one of us betting pass and the other don't pass, with a match play coupon/chip. Getting your fifty percent in cash really mattered to us back then. Cheers mate.

Quote: billy.joeseph

GO home or go grab bite to eat grab some sleep in rooms or in your car and start next day in afternoon refrehed to go full day .

Sleeping in your car in Atlantic City?