superrick
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February 17th, 2017 at 4:29:06 PM permalink
Okay for all of you guys that know everything, are bubble craps machines nothing more than a slot machine?

Can you back up what you are writing with facts?
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
charlestfuller
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February 17th, 2017 at 5:03:42 PM permalink
Yes, by definition they are different. Craps machines do not have a reel and are not really associated with random symbols. Craps can involve strategy, albeit not necessarily a winning one. Strange to see two threads now about bubble craps machines...
superrick
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February 17th, 2017 at 6:06:45 PM permalink
Well, it's because more and more of these machines are showing up around the country! They also are showing up where they can't have table games, so if that is the case are they slot machines?
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
ThatDonGuy
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February 17th, 2017 at 6:45:59 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

Well, it's because more and more of these machines are showing up around the country! They also are showing up where they can't have table games, so if that is the case are they slot machines?


Bubble craps machines are probably considered "slot machines" just as much as video poker machines are. If the bets are handled electronically and no staffers (dealers/croupiers) are needed, then it is probably considered a "gaming device" just like a slot machine. Is there a reason you need to know if the specific term "slot machine" applies to them?

One exception I can think of to "they're showing up where they can't have table games": California. Casinos that were opened or had their compacts renegotiated (e.g. to add more machines) after 2010 have a stipulation saying that no games that use "physical dice" are allowed. While I have a feeling this was targeting the versions of craps that, while cards determine the actual numbers, dice are used to determine which cards are drawn, it almost certainly applies to bubble craps as well.
superrick
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February 17th, 2017 at 7:05:11 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Bubble craps machines are probably considered "slot machines" just as much as video poker machines are. If the bets are handled electronically and no staffers (dealers/croupiers) are needed, then it is probably considered a "gaming device" just like a slot machine. Is there a reason you need to know if the specific term "slot machine" applies to them?

One exception I can think of to "they're showing up where they can't have table games": California. Casinos that were opened or had their compacts renegotiated (e.g. to add more machines) after 2010 have a stipulation saying that no games that use "physical dice" are allowed. While I have a feeling this was targeting the versions of craps that, while cards determine the actual numbers, dice are used to determine which cards are drawn, it almost certainly applies to bubble craps as well.


Yes, there is a reason and it goes like this, I don't like information that can't be proven and is nothing more than fiction that is passed on to anybody that wants to read it! Common sense would tell you that they are slot machines if the casinos can't have table games but now have these bubble craps machines that are now showing up in more casinos!

If they are slot machines do they have to act like real live table games? There may be a big misconception that they have to act like real table games when they don't have to because in fact they are a slot machine! Standing back and looking at the machine are the players thinking that they are playing real craps when they are not?
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
AxelWolf
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February 17th, 2017 at 8:58:57 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

Yes, there is a reason and it goes like this, I don't like information that can't be proven and is nothing more than fiction that is passed on to anybody that wants to read it! Common sense would tell you that they are slot machines if the casinos can't have table games but now have these bubble craps machines that are now showing up in more casinos!

If they are slot machines do they have to act like real live table games? There may be a big misconception that they have to act like real table games when they don't have to because in fact they are a slot machine! Standing back and looking at the machine are the players thinking that they are playing real craps when they are not?

I would look up the laws in the state you want to know more about. It's to my understanding, in Nevada, if a machine has a dice or poker card feature, it must be random.

I hear people saying they are not random, and the machines are using magnets or something like that to cheat(*rolls eyes). If that's the case, it makes me wonder why most casinos don't allow you to earn points(oftentimes they start out allowing you to earn points and then quickly disallow from point earning) on something that is acting like a slot and is basically cheating people? They should be giving away triple points, running promotions and encouraging people to play their craps "slot".

If they can gaff bubble craps to not play fair why dont they just make more games like spin poker VP add FPDW, FPJW etc etc and gaff the hell out of them?

Why not gaff all the Video BJ as well?

I'm not sure why any halfway educated gambler would want to play them for any serious money or time in the first place, unless they have an advantage, or they are just messing around wasting time or whatever.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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February 17th, 2017 at 9:27:04 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

Okay for all of you guys that know everything, are bubble craps machines nothing more than a slot machine?

Can you back up what you are writing with facts?



For W2G purposes, they are treated as a slot machine rather than table game.

They are legal in some jurisdictions in which live table games are not because they fall under the definition of an electronic game.

In terms of randomness, for Nevada at least, any game that uses cards, dice, roulette wheel or other physical implement that would have set odds must have the probabilities correspond to what the odds would be. In other words, it could be RNG based, but the programmed probabilities would have to be the same as actual physical dice...at least in Nevada.

You'd do well to examine other states individually.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
FleaStiff
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February 17th, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

Can you back up what you are writing with facts?

Philisophical slot machines? Legal slot machines, IRS slot machines, de facto slot machines, ...you want evidence and FACTS?

OKAY.... here is the important fact: Professional gamblers, bookmakers, million dollar bettors are reliable.

Casinos are betting that they are indeed slot machines... they are betting millions... so that makes them slot machines. I ain't seen no casinos ripping the machines out due to massive losses. Nor does there seem to be teams of parasites sucking chips from those machines.

After all the preliminary tests casinos put new games to, the final test is to put it on the floor and see what happens. Casinos saw. They are happy.

So its a slot machine even if the lawyers came up with that designation for some legal reason. Its a slot machine.
AxelWolf
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February 17th, 2017 at 10:25:48 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: superrick

Can you back up what you are writing with facts?

Philisophical slot machines? Legal slot machines, IRS slot machines, de facto slot machines, ...you want evidence and FACTS?

OKAY.... here is the important fact: Professional gamblers, bookmakers, million dollar bettors are reliable.

Casinos are betting that they are indeed slot machines... they are betting millions... so that makes them slot machines. I ain't seen no casinos ripping the machines out due to massive losses. Nor does there seem to be teams of parasites sucking chips from those machines.

After all the preliminary tests casinos put new games to, the final test is to put it on the floor and see what happens. Casinos saw. They are happy.

So its a slot machine even if the lawyers came up with that designation for some legal reason. Its a slot machine.

I think we need to get to the real reason the question is being asked.

There are people that think if they are a slot they can be programmed to do funny things and hold whatever the casino sets them to hold. I'm not buying it, at least not in most US jurisdictions.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
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February 17th, 2017 at 10:42:17 PM permalink
They are "slot machines" in the sense you can hit a W2G on them (hit for $1200+ on a single pay, get a jackpot/W2G), as well as that they are electronic. If you're asking "can the casino change the odds / hold / etc. on the bubble craps?" -- at least in NV, they are not "slot machines" in that sense. In NV, if a game (even a kiosk swipe & win type game), if things like dice or cards are used, then each outcome has to be equally likely.

I suppose it's possible the machine has an RNG in it that picks what the next dice roll is going to be, by using magnets or some such nonsense. But if that somehow was the case, each number on each die would have to be equally likely to show up. So, in other words, this would have no effect on the player (unless he was trying to DI the craps machine, lol).


Is that what you're getting at, Superrick, you trying to DI the craps machines?
AxelWolf
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February 17th, 2017 at 10:44:40 PM permalink
Quote: RS

They are "slot machines" in the sense you can hit a W2G on them (hit for $1200+ on a single pay, get a jackpot/W2G), as well as that they are electronic. If you're asking "can the casino change the odds / hold / etc. on the bubble craps?" -- at least in NV, they are not "slot machines" in that sense. In NV, if a game (even a kiosk swipe & win type game), if things like dice or cards are used, then each outcome has to be equally likely.

I suppose it's possible the machine has an RNG in it that picks what the next dice roll is going to be, by using magnets or some such nonsense. But if that somehow was the case, each number on each die would have to be equally likely to show up. So, in other words, this would have no effect on the player (unless he was trying to DI the craps machine, lol).


Is that what you're getting at, Superrick, you trying to DI the craps machines?

Biased dice.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
superrick
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February 18th, 2017 at 6:12:07 AM permalink
Quote: RS




Is that what you're getting at, Superrick, you trying to DI the craps machines?



No, just trying to find out if they are in fact a slot type of machine that just shows dice bouncing around! If I was playing them I wouldn't even push the stupid button that the machine keeps telling you to push! If casinos that don't have table games and are not licensed for them can have these machines do they fall into the category of a slot machine? There has to be some type of clarification on what they really are a table game or an electronic game!

Electronic games as far as I know fall into the slot machine category and are not real table games!

Nevada gaming rules are very vague when it comes to these machines. I would like to see the rule that governs these machine so we all know what they are!

..
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
DRich
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February 18th, 2017 at 7:55:54 AM permalink
Quote: superrick

No, just trying to find out if they are in fact a slot type of machine that just shows dice bouncing around! If I was playing them I wouldn't even push the stupid button that the machine keeps telling you to push! If casinos that don't have table games and are not licensed for them can have these machines do they fall into the category of a slot machine? There has to be some type of clarification on what they really are a table game or an electronic game!

Electronic games as far as I know fall into the slot machine category and are not real table games!

Nevada gaming rules are very vague when it comes to these machines. I would like to see the rule that governs these machine so we all know what they are!

..



I'm guessing you haven't actually read all of the Nevada Gaming regulations and technical standards? They are all posted online and seem very specific. Which ones do you find ambiguous?

NGCB TS 1.010 (12) seems very clear.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
ThatDonGuy
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February 18th, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM permalink
Quote: superrick

No, just trying to find out if they are in fact a slot type of machine that just shows dice bouncing around! If I was playing them I wouldn't even push the stupid button that the machine keeps telling you to push! If casinos that don't have table games and are not licensed for them can have these machines do they fall into the category of a slot machine? There has to be some type of clarification on what they really are a table game or an electronic game!

Electronic games as far as I know fall into the slot machine category and are not real table games!

Nevada gaming rules are very vague when it comes to these machines. I would like to see the rule that governs these machine so we all know what they are!

..


Nevada Gaming Regulation 14.040(2)(b):
"For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game."

Translation: bubble craps dice have to be fair. Even the dice in purely video craps or video sic bo have to be fair, just as the wheel in video roulette does. At least they do in Nevada.
Wizardofnothing
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Boz
February 18th, 2017 at 10:29:03 AM permalink
I can almost assure you he is asking because he ran bad at bubble craps and wants to know if it's preprogrammed to a specific hold percentage.
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
Boz
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February 18th, 2017 at 12:39:14 PM permalink
Looking at the limited amount of Tier Credits and comps you get from these machines should show that they are legit with a low house hold.
superrick
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February 18th, 2017 at 3:02:43 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

I can almost assure you he is asking because he ran bad at bubble craps and wants to know if it's preprogrammed to a specific hold percentage.



No, it has nothing to do with playing bubble craps I play real craps, but want to get a clarification as to what these machines are!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
Wizardofnothing
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February 18th, 2017 at 3:33:01 PM permalink
For any specific reason ?
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
ThatDonGuy
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February 18th, 2017 at 4:00:39 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

No, it has nothing to do with playing bubble craps I play real craps, but want to get a clarification as to what these machines are!


They're "gaming machines" - not slot machines, but machines that play legitimate craps. My guess as to why they're so popular: casinos probably love them because they don't need to pay for croupiers/dealers, and players probably love them because they don't have to deal with the dealers when placing most of their bets.

The "push the button" gimmick is probably there so that one of the players appears to have some control over the dice.
dfwbird
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February 18th, 2017 at 7:14:52 PM permalink
Worse than the explosion of flat earth NBA players! As of superbowl weekend 2017 in Vegas at the Rio they were not treated as slots. I ran $250 to just over 3k on one shooter. The terminal locked up on attempt to cash out. Slot guy said no W2 but they record the event and handpay the tito. No such procedure occurred on a multiple shooter $800 in $2600 cash out.

yes the dice have rounded corners and act differently than on a real table. No magnets. For me the appeal over real is I can turn on/off move up down on bet sizes all without the entire rest of the table looking at me like I'm an idiot slowing the game down. btw.. I am an idiot. But it's my f!#/ing money let me bet it how I want.

The shitty part is at most places you can only have $500 max spread across all bets so when that hot roll does show up you aren't going to make near as much as you would on a real table.
Last edited by: beachbumbabs on Feb 19, 2017
DRich
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February 19th, 2017 at 5:11:41 AM permalink
Quote: dfwbird

Worse than the explosion of flat earth NBA players! As of superbowl weekend 2017 in Vegas at the Rio they were not treated as slots. I ran $250 to just over 3k on one shooter. The terminal locked up on attempt to cash out. Slot guy said no W2 but they record the event and handpay the tito. No such procedure occurred on a multiple shooter $800 in $2600 cash out.

yes the dice have rounded corners and act differently than on a real table. No magnets. For me the appeal over real is I can turn on/off move up down on bet sizes all without the entire rest of the table looking at me like I'm an idiot slowing the game down. btw.. I am an idiot. But it's my f!#/ing money let me bet it how I want.

The shitty part is at most places you can only have $500 max spread across all bets so when that hot roll does show up you aren't going to make near as much as you would on a real table.



$3000 has become a key number in the gaming industry. It is considered best practice in the industry to begin tracking a players buy in's and cash out of $3000 or more. This is all part of the Bank Secrecy Act and Title 31. The idea is to track the cash because once a players accumulated cashouts or buyins hit $10,000 a Currency Transaction Report (CTR) is required to be filed to the government. FYI, slot jackpots are excluded because they already require a W2G.

This is a part of the gaming industry that I know very well.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_regulations_under_the_Bank_Secrecy_Act
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
superrick
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February 19th, 2017 at 6:31:52 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

For any specific reason ?


There is aways a reason behind anything someone's posts. There is a lot of confusion about these machines and what they are. As some of you may know Nevada gaming rules are very vague!

We know that there are many small casinos that can't have table games and are only slot machine parlors like the Dotty's slot machine parlors that only operate under a "restricted" gaming license. For the most part now that they acquire the Hacienda Hotel and Casino near Boulder City, its first full hotel-casino. In July 2014, Dotty's agreed to buy the River Palms in Laughlin so they now operate two real casinos here in Nevada!

Here is my rub with what they are if the small casinos are operating under a "restricted" gaming license and can't have table games are they, in fact, a type of slot machine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotty%27s
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
AxelWolf
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February 19th, 2017 at 9:30:11 AM permalink
Quote: superrick

There is aways a reason behind anything someone's posts. There is a lot of confusion about these machines and what they are. As some of you may know Nevada gaming rules are very vague!

We know that there are many small casinos that can't have table games and are only slot machine parlors like the Dotty's slot machine parlors that only operate under a "restricted" gaming license. For the most part now that they acquire the Hacienda Hotel and Casino near Boulder City, its first full hotel-casino. In July 2014, Dotty's agreed to buy the River Palms in Laughlin so they now operate two real casinos here in Nevada!

Here is my rub with what they are if the small casinos are operating under a "restricted" gaming license and can't have table games are they, in fact, a type of slot machine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotty%27s

In ten years Dotty will own everything.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ThatDonGuy
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February 19th, 2017 at 1:15:39 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

There is aways a reason behind anything someone's posts. There is a lot of confusion about these machines and what they are. As some of you may know Nevada gaming rules are very vague!

We know that there are many small casinos that can't have table games and are only slot machine parlors like the Dotty's slot machine parlors that only operate under a "restricted" gaming license. For the most part now that they acquire the Hacienda Hotel and Casino near Boulder City, its first full hotel-casino. In July 2014, Dotty's agreed to buy the River Palms in Laughlin so they now operate two real casinos here in Nevada!

Here is my rub with what they are if the small casinos are operating under a "restricted" gaming license and can't have table games are they, in fact, a type of slot machine?


Good question.
Nevada Revised Statue 463.0191 defines a "slot machine":
“Slot machine” means any mechanical, electrical or other device, contrivance or machine which, upon insertion of a coin, token or similar object, or upon payment of any consideration, is available to play or operate, the play or operation of which, whether by reason of the skill of the operator in playing a gambling game which is presented for play by the machine or application of the element of chance, or both, may deliver or entitle the person playing or operating the machine to receive cash, premiums, merchandise, tokens or any thing of value, whether the payoff is made automatically from the machine or in any other manner."
Under that definition, not only are bubble craps machines "slot machines," but so are video poker machines.

The only reference to just what a "restricted license" can have is here, where it says a restricted license can have "not more than 15 slot machines and no other games." However, it isn't clear if this uses the same definition of "slot machines" as above. My guess: yes, because they don't separate "traditional" slot machines from VP machines in the Gaming Revenue Reports - all machines are counted under "slot machines." In this case, bubble craps can be considered a "slot machine" because it does not take a separate person to run it. However, the dice do have to be fair; the rolls cannot be predetermined.
RS
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February 19th, 2017 at 2:11:41 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

However, the dice do have to be fair; the rolls cannot be predetermined.


The dice must be fair, but I believe they could be predetermined, legally. Not that I think they are predetermined, but they well could be.
Ernesto
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February 19th, 2017 at 3:15:09 PM permalink
I am a slow learner. Is Stadium Blackjack a slot machine in Las Vegas ? In Pennsylvania Stadium Blackjack is considered a table game and taxed at 14% instead of 54% for a slot machine. I believe the logic initially behind the two different tax structures was table games created more jobs.
ThatDonGuy
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February 19th, 2017 at 4:39:21 PM permalink
Quote: Ernesto

I am a slow learner. Is Stadium Blackjack a slot machine in Las Vegas ? In Pennsylvania Stadium Blackjack is considered a table game and taxed at 14% instead of 54% for a slot machine. I believe the logic initially behind the two different tax structures was table games created more jobs.


Stadium Blackjack at the Venetian has a live dealer (or at least that's what the Venetian website says - in fact, it might be only at the Palazzo), so it would be a table game.
joe.blasi
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February 19th, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Stadium Blackjack at the Venetian has a live dealer (or at least that's what the Venetian website says - in fact, it might be only at the Palazzo), so it would be a table game.


dealer does not take a hole card so do lose all on Dealer BJ?
superrick
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February 19th, 2017 at 6:32:19 PM permalink
Quote: Ernesto

I am a slow learner. Is Stadium Blackjack a slot machine in Las Vegas ? In Pennsylvania Stadium Blackjack is considered a table game and taxed at 14% instead of 54% for a slot machine. I believe the logic initially behind the two different tax structures was table games created more jobs.


Let's stay on the one subject then move on! First, we have to determine what the bubble craps machines are!

We are strictly talking about a stand alone bubble craps machine with no dealers working the machine that are showing up in the small casinos!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
Ibeatyouraces
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February 19th, 2017 at 6:36:20 PM permalink
They're in large casinos also.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
DJTeddyBear
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February 19th, 2017 at 7:19:27 PM permalink
To the player, bubble craps are more like a table game than slot machine. The dice are random and independent of anything else, and are used to determine the result.

They have no dealer, but use ticket in / ticket out. Does that make them more of a slot machine to you? If so, so be it.

However, whether the casino (or more likely the state) thinks of them as a table game or slot machine can be different in each jurisdiction. Therefore to argue it here, or even to merely discuss it, is pointless.

That classification is important for tax reasons, as well as to step around other restrictions that some jurisdictions may impose. And again, to argue or discuss those points here is pointless.

But again, to the player, the classification is irrelevant.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizardofnothing
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February 19th, 2017 at 10:03:46 PM permalink
in Florida you sign for a taxable just like on a slot machine
the same exact thing with interblock baccarat machines as well.
kind of useless in knowing which is which as the machines are what they are
ill go back to the only reason anyone really would care is if they though the outcome was predetermined

ill give an example with 5 dimes on line Casino as why why someone would care
their pai got poker instead of charging commission actually pays above 100 percent, the house edge coming in the case of a tie goes to the house
however that game is not a random deal of the cards and instead the came is set for a return percentage and the game is simply an animation of the result
i.e. you get a 10 high pai gow and win the hand or get a full house and lose
if this is what op is asking, from almost everything I know and speaking to a million techs and even a former casino owner who I am pretty close with, there are no magnets or predetermined results in bubble craps
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
jetzzfan
jetzzfan
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Joined: Jan 9, 2017
February 20th, 2017 at 1:20:52 AM permalink
In Arizona, they are treated like slot machines which means a maximum of $35 spread out on the table. Tried it a couple of times, but didn't like the limited action I was getting. Can make pass line bets as low as $0.50. Offered 3x odds on 4/5/9/10, 2x odds on 6/8.
Sonny44
Sonny44
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Joined: May 13, 2013
February 20th, 2017 at 12:37:03 PM permalink
Gambling has always been (until recently) a human, manual, activity. Even slots of old required pulling the lever. Of course I can't propose outlawing gambling machines, but when the day comes, and I must walk into a machine casino, where everyone is seated at a computer screen, oblivious to everyone else, like w/ smartphones today, I'll not walk into a casino!
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