Interesting. I never realized the payout on the place bets were actually the same as the pl + odds
I have a $6 place on the 6 or 8, earns $7 on a win
I put $5 on the line, point's a 6 or 8, and I can now bet anything that pays 6:5 correctly, I put $5, say; that $10 combination earns $11 on a win
don't seem to be the same. I could put $1 odds, then I'd have $6 paying $6 [if the dealer would even do it]
I think I have heard others say they are the same but I don't see how. Probably I'm being dense.
$5 on the line and the point becomes 6 or 8. Bet 5x odds ($25) for a total wagered of $30. If it wins, the payout is $5 + $30 = $35. If instead you made a place bet of the same $30, the payout would also be $35.
Turns out the same way with a 4x odds bet on a 5 or 9, and comes out close-but-not-quite-the-same for a 3x odds bet on the 4 or 10.
Quote: bodyforlifeI can't believe I never noticed that before. So my question would be if you're leaving your odds working on your "come" wager on the come out roll, and happen to have place wagers up, why wouldn't you just work those also?
If you have Come bets and Place bets, and have the Come Odds working on the Come Out Roll, I don't think there is a reason not to also have your Place bets working. The chance of winning or losing is the same.
Whether you should leaving bets/odds working depends on your reason for playing. The math says to leave the bets working. However, it is less fun to lose the money on a Come Out 7 while everyone else at the table is clapping and giving high-fives over their small Pass Line win. Just like it is less fun to be a Don't player because you win when everyone else loses and you lose when everyone else wins.
This is what I posted last year:
Quote: BlueEagleMy current play consists of making only Place/Buy bets instead of a Pass Line bet with odds. I had been playing continuous Come with full odds. One night when I just couldn't win anything, a dealer recommended that I use Place bets so that I would win the first time the number is rolled instead of only after the number is rolled twice. I read up on Place bets and realized that I could risk the same amount of money to win the same amount of money as making Pass Line and Come bets with full 3-4-5x odds. The advantages are winning the first time the number is rolled and not losing the Pass Line bet when craps is rolled on the Come Out Roll. The disadvantages are risking all the money up front and not winning the Pass Line bet when 7 or 11 is rolled on the Come Out Roll.
Pass Line bet with 3-4-5x odds:
$5 Pass Line wins $5
4/10: $15 odds wins $30
5/9: $20 odds wins $30
6/8: $25 odds wins $30
Place/Buy bets:
4/10: $20 Buy wins $39 (after $1 vig on win)
5/9: $25 Place wins $35
6/8: $30 Place wins $35
As you can see, making Place/Buy bets equivalent to the combined Pass Line/Come bet with full odds wins the same total amount. I like the benefit of winning on the first roll. I've never been concerned about winning or losing 1/7 of the potential winnings on the Pass Line, which allows me to not sweat the lower house advantage on the tiny bet.
I think I preferred making only Place bets not only because I felt like I was winning more, but because it requires less work for me and the dealer. I'm a laid-back guy, and like the simplicity of putting $150 on the table for the dealer to spread across all the numbers. I just watch and pick up wins rather than drop various amounts of chips after each roll. After a seven-out, I drop another $150 on the table, the dealer taps across the bets to show the camera, and puts it in the bank. If I'm not working on the Come Out Roll, the dealer will put the little Off lamer on top.
I'm not saying making only Place bets is better than anything else. There is no way to beat the house or ensure a win. Just find a strategy that you enjoy playing.
However, if you want to earn players club tier credits faster, I've heard that Odds don't get rated. So you'd tier up faster making Place bets instead of wagering the same amount with Pass+Odds and Come+Odds.
Quote: odiousgambitlemme see
I have a $6 place on the 6 or 8, earns $7 on a win
I put $5 on the line, point's a 6 or 8, and I can now bet anything that pays 6:5 correctly, I put $5, say; that $10 combination earns $11 on a win
don't seem to be the same. I could put $1 odds, then I'd have $6 paying $6 [if the dealer would even do it]
I think I have heard others say they are the same but I don't see how. Probably I'm being dense.
Perhaps I should clarify. I was referring to a 345x table. And I'm referring to taking max odds. So if I bet $1 on passline and the point is 8, I would then take $5 in odds. If I hit the 8, my total wager is 6 and they pay me 7. No different than a place bet on the 8, which pays 7 for a $6 wager. So the main difference is the advantage I get on the "come out" roll of having 6 ways to win versus 3. And you're right Doc, it's slightly off on the 4/10 wager.
Ex: $5 on pl, backing up with $15 (total wager 20 and payout of 35) vs $20 place on 10 with a payout of 36
Quote: BlueEagleIHowever, if you want to earn players club tier credits faster, I've heard that Odds don't get rated. So you'd tier up faster making Place bets instead of wagering the same amount with Pass+Odds and Come+Odds.
This is dependent on the particular player's club, It is a good question to ask the pit person... The reason not to rate odds is that there is no house advantage on that part of the bet.
Quote: bodyforlifePerhaps I should clarify. I was referring to a 345x table. And I'm referring to taking max odds. So if I bet $1 on passline and the point is 8, I would then take $5 in odds. If I hit the 8, my total wager is 6 and they pay me 7. No different than a place bet on the 8, which pays 7 for a $6 wager. So the main difference is the advantage I get on the "come out" roll of having 6 ways to win versus 3. And you're right Doc, it's slightly off on the 4/10 wager.
Ex: $5 on pl, backing up with $15 (total wager 20 and payout of 35) vs $20 place on 10 with a payout of 36
I am going to mildly declare it is a bit of a canard to say they are the same due to what you have pointed out yourself - but it is interesting enough.
Quote: odiousgambitI am going to mildly declare it is a bit of a canard to say they are the same due to what you have pointed out yourself - but it is interesting enough.
Suit yourself
Quote: bodyforlifeI can't believe I never noticed that before. So my question would be if you're leaving your odds working on your "come" wager on the come out roll, and happen to have place wagers up, why wouldn't you just work those also?
I have also never really noticed that as well. I think when we are talking about HE though it is better to have $5 pass and odds opposed to having place bets working on the come out. Since 7s happen more often the more you avoid having action the better we are. You pointing this out doesn't change my playing though. Right now I will place the 6 and 8, with $5 come. If a 6 is rolled I take down my place and take odds. Overall I guess it is the same but I am benefiting from the 7 out winning come bet.
Quote: bodyforlifeSuit yourself
Indeed, but it puzzles me that you would point it out yourself and then still treasure the canard enough to get miffed if someone else points it out.
I guess one reason I have to call it out is that this kind of thinking really misleads some players - the threads they start being proof. They will dream up what they see as attractive bet combinations and rattle on about 'if this happens, I win this, if that happens, I win that, etc, etc' failing to realize they are not weighing the probabilities. According to that kind of thinking, the bet on '12' is the best bet on the table because when it wins you get 30:1
Why say, "It is less fun to be a Don't player"? I'll take winning every day "when everyone else loses." And I'll try to back off if I can spot when the rare avalanche approaches.Quote: BlueEagleIt is less fun to lose the money on a Come Out 7 while everyone else at the table is clapping and giving high-fives over their small Pass Line win. Just like it is less fun to be a Don't player because you win when everyone else loses and you lose when everyone else wins.
Quote: SanchoPanzaWhy say, "It is less fun to be a Don't player"? I'll take winning every day "when everyone else loses." And I'll try to back off if I can spot when the rare avalanche approaches.
Gotta agree. I really don't care if the rest of the people are cheering because most of the people at the casinos I play at seem like a bunch of morons anyway. Seriously, I've seen a situation many times where someone rolls either a 7 or 11 on five consecutive come out rolls and these guys are carrying on like they just won the lotto. Hard to get too caught up in that nonsense when one PL + odds win would be more than what these guys have won with their $5 wagers. Kinda reminds me of the sports gamblers. It always seem like the ones making the most noise are the ones with the $10 wager. The dime player just sits there and watches until the games over and then cashes his ticket with no hoopla whatsoever.
I've been a come bettor for years. The way I understand it, is that you save money on the flat portion of your come bet vs the place bet due to the house edge being higher on the place. In turn, the place bettor will earn slightly higher tier credits because the come odds are not rated. I lifted the following paragraph from an article. I'll also post the link.
Say one person makes a $30 Place bet on the eight, and another drops $5 on Come then takes $25 in odds. The Place bet is good for 1.5 percent of $30, or $0.45. The Come bet represents 1.4 percent of $5 or $0.07. For the $30 total, the Come bettor benefits by saving $0.38 on the house's take; the Place bettor racks up $0.15 as opposed to just over $0.02 toward that coveted all-you-can-eat cornucopia of cholesterol. Which brings up that age-old aphorism that you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
EDIT: I guess I can't post links yet.
So basically, if you are strictly a table games player, you might want to do place betting as you will earn more tier credits. However, if you are a video poker/slots player as well, it probably won't matter much and you could be better off come betting and saving some money on the house's take and earning your tier credits on VP/slots.
Quote: Steverinosthe Place bettor racks up $0.15 as opposed to just over $0.02 [in comps]
a new perspective indeed.
I'd say try as hard as you possibly can to forget that little gem.
Oops, a little harsh for the new guy. Welcome. Steverino, I've been taught to never play for comps. In this case, you'd really have to be trusting someone is paying that much attention to your betting to begin with. Not likely. I'd say follow that same old advice.
Quote: odiousgambitQuote: Steverinosthe Place bettor racks up $0.15 as opposed to just over $0.02 [in comps]
a new perspective indeed.
I'd say try as hard as you possibly can to forget that little gem.
Oops, a little harsh for the new guy. Welcome. Steverino, I've been taught to never play for comps. In this case, you'd really have to be trusting someone is paying that much attention to your betting to begin with. Not likely. I'd say follow that same old advice.
Thanks for the edit, OG. I was going to request you detail your objection, but I believe your edit has done that. If there's incorrect math in the post, I'd appreciate you explaining that also.
Although having resort fees waived is not a bad "comp".
Quote: SteverinosI don't play for comps. I've always been a firm believer in PL/Come over place betting. The house edge is lower and that's what it really boils down to...for me at least.
Although having resort fees waived is not a bad "comp".
Good.
My own record, in spite of the scolding, is not perfect, but I hopefully avoid being painted as a hypocrite as I hew to this advice about not playing for comps 99% of the time. Recently, though, I made a play to get a free room in Tunica. I'll be blogging about that in a couple of weeks.
BBB, I just wonder how often it is that a player, especially a low-roller like me, gets any attention to what bets he makes as in the example by Steverinos. The Wizard indicates in one of his pages that comps [usually? often?] are simply based on a formula without a lot of attention:
Quote: Wizard's page, see linkHands per Hour, House Edge for Comp Purposes
The following table shows the average hands per hour and the house edge for comp purposes various games. ...This table was given to me anonymously by an executive with a major Strip casino and is used for rating players.
[the Craps line on that table] Craps 48 [rolls per hour] 1.58% [HE]
so the suggestion here is that someone rating you would notice your average bet, multiply that by 48 and the HE, and get a theoretical. It's easy for me to believe anything more as for 'paying attention' to a $5 or $10 bettor would be nuts.
https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/
