CHARTING A TABLE

Math. This thread will go on forever/ You
Just can't convince some people.. I lost one of my best friends from my Wall Street days over an argument about something math related-
He was very smart but just wouldn't listen and went down with the ship.. I watch perfectly brilliant people play baccarat for 50k a hand and they think they see a pattern , I won't disclose the guy's name but his company that he founded is worth well over 15 billion guy makes every business decision right but truly believes the cards create a pattern in bacc

Hey, I worked at a tech company in Vegas with several software engineers who were convinced that charting roulette was an effective way to beat the game. It's a common misconception -- that's why they call it the Gambler's Fallacy -- but the prevalence of a belief doesn't make it correct. On the other hand, in baccarat it really doesn't matter much. If you switch from banker to player half the time based on some superstition, that costs less than a quarter-bet per hour. At the $50,000 level that's a lot, but at mortal levels that's the cost of a drink or two. If you have more fun that way, it's probably worth it.

The problem with dice is tricking yourself into thinking you have the ability to roll, say, 11s and then you load up on the horn bets or something. Or you think you have an SRR of 1:7 so you make the Bonus Craps or Fire Bet wagers. Unlike baccarat, that has the potential of being *really* expensive.

you shouldn't bring baccarat into this very serious discussion.....we have a lady bacc player who says she never loses by the name of ti ming.....she inherited it from her rich uncle cha ching.

The purpose of recording toss dice results implies that they have
significance mathematically or otherwise. Having tried this DI thing for
a few years I'll add a little insight for those who don't understand true
Believers. I'll start with some facts and then describe their impact on the
shot and the impact on the mind of a Believer. After this I think the
recording of toss results will be given better perspective.


Hurdle 1: Huge mismatch of dice mass to arm mass
Trying to control two cubes weighing 9.65 grams each, using an arm with
an average mass of 5738g, with muscular forces attached to this 297-times-
more-massive "cube-tosser" stacks the cards against acquiring Dice Influence(DI).
The physics to overcome here are daunting with the problems of unevenness of
force applied, positioning inaccuracies and errors to each cube being
magnified by the time they land 6 or more feet from the initial conditions.
Result: random
Believer's point of view: maybe I can overcome the difficulties inherent
in this DI goal.

Hurdle 2: Humidity
The finger surfaces that prepare the dice must not have any residua from the
ambient humidity and previous handlers. This effect, more common in hot,
humid climes prevalent in many USA gambling venues, carries over inside the
casinos where its slight effect upon die release will wreck the desired and
practiced trajectory.
Result: random
Believer: Can't see the effect upon the trajectory and thus the toss is felt
to be unaffected by this problem source. If effect is visible, they may fail
to attribute it to this cause.

Hurdle 3: Trajectory
Let's get to a point where a person can actually pick up the dice quickly
enough and toss them together so they are trajecting in synchrony on the way
to first contact at table surface. Any rotations of dice are also in synchrony.
However, any errant muscular force or positional unevenness of finger contacts
will roll/pitch/yaw one or both die before touchdown.
Result: random
Believer: If they have an analytical bent, they will have trained their eye
to spot a deviation from desired trajectory and may be physically capable to
make a correction.

Hurdle 4: Dice contact with table surface.
The surface composition has non-uniform elastic characteristics. Among these
are wear and tear, all sorts of imperfections, and/or superball elastic to
make dice have as unpredictable effects as possible from initial contact.
There are so many ways that the most minor deviation from a perfect landing
will cause dreadful results. Just look at the huge list of videos Superrick
has assembled for anyone to view and see how raucously the dice behave at
landing. Backspinning dice must reverse their spin in order to continue forward
and be a legal toss by continuing to the backwall. Often the dice collide
inward upon themselves before continuing forward and this collision is often
invisible except with high speed slo-mo playback. There are numerous other
effects visible only on slo-mo playback. A die may roll on its edges, etc.
Result: random
Believer: It's a good or bad toss from their point of view which most likely
is judged by the dice continuing to roll towards the backwall without exhibiting
an obviously raggedy path and/or bouncing badly after touchdown.

Hurdle 5: Dice contact with the backwall.
There are some ways to minimize the effects of the pyramids. One is to only
contact the very bottom surface. Another is to only graze the backwall with
a high arc touchdown very near the backwall that makes the dice bounce
almost vertically and just graze or not even hit the wall since from the
boxman's view he wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I've seen the
latter from a highly skilled DI. I lost a few hundred betting the Donts
against him until I realized he was either lucky or actually a DI in the
flesh which I had never seen before. I left the casino and went to a nearby
one and that same DI showed up and had another monster roll. This time. I was
straight out at the wall he was tossing towards. I don't think his dice even
grazed the backwall more than 33% of the time, if that much. I never saw him
again to see if his next time out he turned into the PSO King of the Donts.
It was a highly practiced, technically skilled and highly consistent shot,
even if his shots weren't technically legal most of the time. Nonetheless,
his dice arcs were not always equal in height for each die and there was a
significant backspin at touchdown. Usually such instability of spin reversal
at touchdown makes what happens after that event likely unpredictable.
Visibly one can't tell what specific effect the backwall has on each die without
slo-mo playback unless the dice are clearly reacting raucously after hitting
the backwall, and in that case they are obviously randomized.
Result: random
Believer: backwall doesn't randomize if the dice look like they don't hit
hard enough to go wildly after contact. Visibly one can't easily tell what
specific effect the backwall has on each die without slo-mo playback if they
are "acting well" after impact.

Hurdle 6: Practicing the "initial conditions" of the toss.
Just about everything about DI involves techniques of setting up the "initial
conditions"(grip, positioning, movement, release) of a toss so that the dice
are sufficiently in synchrony till touchdown and afterwards remain sufficiently
movement constrained such that they avoid the seven.
Such techniques as are practiced by the DI schools are unable to
effect consistent and provable sevens avoidance or some other verifiable
end results. It doesn't help that just about everything one needs to do to
attain the extraordinary skill needed for any verifiable DI involves
practicing changes to the "initial conditions" in order to determine what,
if any, effect there is on the toss as a result of the change. Such effects
are almost always invisible to the naked eye. Until extraordinary
skill has already been attained, one is not in control of their technique
sufficiently to make any single change and be sure of its effects upon dice
results. It's one hell of a bind-like a Catch-22 training-hell.
For the same reason, it would not be logical to think that tweaking a set has
any demonstrable effect on outcomes unless the toss is already of sufficient
caliber to have a demonstrable skill at sevens avoidance to begin with.
Result: random until an almost impossible degree of technical skill makes the
golden fleece of verifiable sevens avoidance arrive.
Believer: By practicing enough they will be more and more capable of DI. If
they have a monster roll they likely remember how it felt to be "in the zone"
and how much they felt in control of the dice. Somehow the details of how
the dice go from initial conditions to the end result are just not all that
important and since they are mostly invisible, they are ignored.

In conclusion, the recording of results is always from a work "in progress"
until the "initial conditions" of the toss are completely understood and
sufficiently under physical and mental control. Until then, there is no point
in recording results except intermittently for amusement or to cherry pick a
good set of results from happy variance as evidence of one's level of "skill".

I made it 90% thru that, it was almost fun, but not enough to keep me awake. Night, night...

Onebok. Excellent post! Based on your thorough understanding of the hurdle mechanics, has you been able to demonstrate any DI?

If I'm clutching at straws I'm honing in on the humidity factor (chaulk in pocket?) and staying away from the back wall pyramids.

I would have one point to add to this discussion, which I have seen no mention of anywhere. I had to look up the definitions of pronation and supination.

As a southpaw, I learned that just before the dice are tossed, it is a natural anatomical position for the wrist to be left pronated. If an adjustment is not made, there
is a pitch bias to the left, with the cubes not landing flat on the table. The shooter needs to be aware of this natural position bias by keeping the wrist straight.

Thanks for taking the time to provide the information.

Summing it all up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhEvxNhqM0M

Quote: eclectic

Summing it all up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhEvxNhqM0M

more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XikckTn7Uo

Tough night at the casino



Drove 1 hour to the table, and they had only one half open and it was full. So I waited
2.5 hours to play. The stick guy said they only bought in for $100 each and they
played all that time . He said they got ahead, but in the end it turned terrible.

Well wife was ready to go home by that time, but since the table did have an
alligator board, I thought I would play.

Not so good. I used the sets I indicated the other day. Started with a 5, 4 hands and
changed sets, then a 6. I went to my third option and had a 28 hand. I was pretty
happy and started the next hand with healthy place bets... bad idea. Over-all
I was up and down like a yo yo, hard to make money.

hands were 5,4,6,28,1,6,30,8,2,3,20,6,9,6

Ended up with a profit of 45% of my buy in, but 9 of the 14 hands were a loss.

A win is better than a loss, so I will take it.

dicesetter

Math


Laughing........


Your no longer a serious person to discuss anything with. I have provided
information from my practice table, it was not good enough for you.... fine
I have provided a video showing the dice do not have to reside in the upper
portion of the back wall. It was not good enough for you, fine,,, I explained
what I keep track of when I play and practice, that is not good enough for you,
fine, I explained my play progression, even my sets, that is not good enough for
you... fine, I even explained a simple shot to keep most of the back wall out of
play that anyone can do with an hours practice, that was not good enough for
you...fine....what I do does not have to be good enough for you, it only has to
be good enough for me.....it is my money I play with. and I have more of it
today than I did yesterday.

I play alone or with 1 other person most of the time, I travel and play when I
can and I don't mind meeting a person so we can to play a few hands. To be honest
no one here has offered to play.

Now I wont sit up and bark for you for a couple of reasons, I take the stuff I have
done with craps seriously, you don't, and I won't validate your immature rants
like this "Are you now suggesting that you earn a living playing craps with the same dice throwing skill that your wife and any ten-year-old can perform? "

If you did not think there was some value in what I have said, you would not get so upset.
To be honest I should not be playing with you like I do, but you brought that on
yourself by trying to cut down what I have worked on.

I love playing the game, I love working on my shot to see what I can do, your mindless
garble wont change that. In the end here is the thing, and there is no way to get around it,
if I do all that I have done, spend all that I spent, practiced all that I practiced, and I
fail miserably, I turn out to be just as bad as you are.!!!!

dicesetter

Quote: MathExtremist

These people are willing to spend thousands of dollars and, apparently, hundreds to thousands of hours practicing. Why does nobody care enough to track their rolls properly to determine whether their efforts are actually influencing the probabilities?

You know the answer. If you are selling lessons the truth would hurt your ability to continue selling such lessons. If you are the bozo who actually paid for such lessons, do you think you want to find out that you flushed your money down the toilet?

DS wrote:

......"I even explained a simple shot to keep most of the back wall out of
play that anyone can do with an hours practice, ......."

Can you direct me to the specific 'how to' of that post? I musta missed it
unless you are referring to the underhand shot?

eclectic



Yes the underhand shot is as easy as it gets. It is based on the very same
ideas of dice rotation as the PARR and GTC shot, and people pay thousands
to learn those shots.

There is no reason what so ever to have the dice bothered by the alligator
board with this shot. There are others developed by different players
around the country, that work the same way.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

Your no longer a serious person to discuss anything with.

It's hard to have a serious discussion when you don't have anything serious to discuss. Vague, amorphous, unverifiable claims of skill after eight years of arduous practice don't cut it. You can't (or won't) quantify your results or your edge, and you don't even pretend to look at any statistics that would help you measure your alleged influence. All you do is recount anecdotes and rely on guesswork. That's not proof, that's wishful thinking, and that's how I know you're not serious.

After everything you've read here, where I and several others have clearly described what a serious, rigorous inquiry into dice influence would look like, the fact that you're still willfully ignoring those methods is ample proof that you're only interested in your superstitions and flawed practice methodologies.

Quote:

In the end here is the thing, and there is no way to get around it,
if I do all that I have done, spend all that I spent, practiced all that I practiced, and I
fail miserably, I turn out to be just as bad as you are.!!!!

I agree -- we're both equally bad (or good) at throwing the dice. If we were to play side by side, our results would be indistinguishable. Fortunately, I didn't need to spend eight years figuring that out.

If you want to prove yourself, do what RS has suggested and post your results. Or meet me in Vegas for the first annual WoV dice throwing contest. I'll shake the dice vigorously and fling them down the table. You do your careful dice setting. Over ten hands (an expected 85 rolls or so), I wager that you won't have longer rolls than me more than half the time.

Math



I love this


You do your careful dice setting. Over ten hands (an expected 85 rolls or so), I wager that you won't have longer rolls than me more than half the time.


The question is what will you wager, and will you wager this much when it is just you and I at the table. When your
not trying to prove your an expert to all the anti everything on this board.

BY the way are you going to use your over the shoulder shot. I know you would not have had 3 or more rolls
over 20 last night. I am ready..... I am ready, if you are serious.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

You do your careful dice setting. Over ten hands (an expected 85 rolls or so), I wager that you won't have longer rolls than me more than half the time.

The question is what will you wager, and will you wager this much when it is just you and I at the table. When your
not trying to prove your an expert to all the anti everything on this board.

I am ready..... I am ready, if you are serious.

I don't want just the two of us at the table, I want the Vegas-local WoV crowd there too, both for independent 3rd-party verification and because crowds are fun. How about the wager is for a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue, to be consumed by the assembled crowd when the contest is over -- because it's not like I could bring my winnings home on the plane.

Quote: dicesitter

I am ready, if you are serious.

dicesetter

OK! all such arguments should end this way.

Dicesetter, I will try to point out, when appropriate, that you won this bet. If you win and agree to bet again in the future, I will not fail to point it out. Cumulative wins will up the effort to give full honors.

Same thing goes for Mathexterminator!

Quote: dicesitter

Math


Laughing........


Your no longer a serious person to discuss anything with. I have provided
information from my practice table, it was not good enough for you.... fine
I have provided a video showing the dice do not have to reside in the upper
portion of the back wall. It was not good enough for you, fine,,, I explained
what I keep track of when I play and practice, that is not good enough for you,
fine, I explained my play progression, even my sets, that is not good enough for
you... fine, I even explained a simple shot to keep most of the back wall out of
play that anyone can do with an hours practice, that was not good enough for
you...fine....what I do does not have to be good enough for you, it only has to
be good enough for me.....it is my money I play with. and I have more of it
today than I did yesterday.

I play alone or with 1 other person most of the time, I travel and play when I
can and I don't mind meeting a person so we can to play a few hands. To be honest
no one here has offered to play.

Now I wont sit up and bark for you for a couple of reasons, I take the stuff I have
done with craps seriously, you don't, and I won't validate your immature rants
like this "Are you now suggesting that you earn a living playing craps with the same dice throwing skill that your wife and any ten-year-old can perform? "

If you did not think there was some value in what I have said, you would not get so upset.
To be honest I should not be playing with you like I do, but you brought that on
yourself by trying to cut down what I have worked on.

I love playing the game, I love working on my shot to see what I can do, your mindless
garble wont change that. In the end here is the thing, and there is no way to get around it,
if I do all that I have done, spend all that I spent, practiced all that I practiced, and I
fail miserably, I turn out to be just as bad as you are.!!!!

dicesetter

Having more today than yesterday is absolutely meaningless on craps and whatever low percentage you are talking about, and you know that.

If you told me you found some extremely biased dice or something out of wack at Blackjack and you made money that's different because you would most likely be banking that at the end of the year.

You have already told us you only end up break even or up a tad at the end of the year. I'm not sure how you can say with confidence that's not just "due' to variance. After years of losing there's nothing to say you can't have years of breaking even or barley winning.

Quote: SOOPOO

If you are the bozo who actually paid for such lessons, do you think you want to find out that you flushed your money down the toilet?

Rather than spending years and thousands more down the crapper? YES, I would want to know.

Math


I felt that would be your reply, your just a big mouth, not an expert at anything.

I don't need any third party, I trust you, when your done I will have your
money and you can get back on here and say, that guy just got lucky, one
nights means nothing. But you and I will know what happened.

You made this personal by cutting down all the work I have done, you
have the guts to back it up?????

Surely your not afraid of a 70 year guy.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

I don't need any third party, I trust you,

But I don't trust you -- I think you're either intentionally lying or innocently yet ignorantly misrepresenting your level of skill. At a minimum, I know you sometimes make mistakes in recording your data. Earlier today you reported that you went to a casino and had a hand that was 1 roll long. That's impossible. A few weeks ago you reported throwing a roll total that's impossible with two dice, I think it was a 14 or something. So no, I don't trust you to accurately report results by yourself.

Are you unwilling to test your dice-throwing prowess in public at a Vegas casino against a totally random shooter? It doesn't even need to be me shooting against you. Bring your wife -- you could switch off between setting the dice and having your wife randomly shake and toss them. I'd still make the bet: Over ten hands, your practiced tosses will not yield longer craps hands than your wife's random tosses more than half the time.

If the stakes aren't high enough (one bottle of Johnnie Blue) then what do you suggest?

Quote: AxelWolf

Rather than spending years and thousands more down the crapper? YES, I would want to know.

Of course the DI Training sellers would not make it a priority to teach their suckers how to detect that they were sold a pup.

I just came up with a better test of skill than shooting against a random shooter. If you think you can control the dice to have longer hands, then you can also control the dice to have shorter ones. So you should shoot against yourself. First, you try to have a long hand. Then you try to have a short one. Alternate like that for 10 times (20 hands total) and the proposition stands: your "long hand" attempts will not be longer than your "short hand" attempts more than half of the time. I won't need to touch the dice at all.

Quote: dicesitter

I am ready..... I am ready, if you are serious.

Outstanding! Let's get to work on dates.

Quote: OnceDear

Of course the DI Training sellers would not make it a priority to teach their suckers how to detect that they were sold a pup.

I don't blame the dice schools. I'm impressed with their model.

Quote: MathExtremist

I just came up with a better test of skill than shooting against a random shooter. If you think you can control the dice to have longer hands, then you can also control the dice to have shorter ones. So you should shoot against yourself. First, you try to have a long hand. Then you try to have a short one. Alternate like that for 10 times (20 hands total) and the proposition stands: your "long hand" attempts will not be longer than your "short hand" attempts more than half of the time. I won't need to touch the dice at all.

Well, that was quick

Is ten hands a sufficient sampling to a yield statistically significant result?

Luck happens.

Quote: MrV

Is ten hands a sufficient sampling to a yield statistically significant result?

Luck happens.

same thing happens with any bet most of the time

no reason not to make the bet

math


There is no question I am terrible at this stuff.

I don't know maybe $2000 as a base wager, just you and me.
If I have to travel to where you are, you pay my travel costs when I beat you.
If you travel here, I will pay yours if you win.

I guess there are different ways to do it. I know of private tables in vegas we can play
on and there are some here. I would imagine there are others.

No dog and pony show. Each start with $1000 in chips, you bet only on your
shot for 10 hands, I bet on my shot for 10 hands. We have 1 stickman in the
room.

I understand why you don't want to touch the dice, but as bad as you say I
am, I will drag this old 70 year body to the table and try to stay upright for
10 hands.

dicesetter

I'm sorry ME, but your proposal seems deficient, IF the purpose is really to try and prove that he's not playing with the advantage he claims he has.

Ten hands doesn't seem to be enough to rule out luck: is it?

I like the idea of you guys squaring off at a craps table in front of WoV folks, but please rethink the specifics so that the results will be probative and not the result of luck.

Otherwise, what's the point?

Quote: MrV

I'm sorry ME, but your proposal seems deficient, IF the purpose is really to try and prove that he's not playing with the advantage he claims he has.

Ten hands doesn't seem to be enough to rule out luck: is it?

I like the idea of you guys squaring off at a craps table in front of WoV folks, but please rethink the specifics so that the results will be probative and not the result of luck.

Otherwise, what's the point?

Seconded.
You are inviting him to claim 'proof' which to him equates to victory on what is no more than a coin toss.
What's the point of that. You are validating his statistically insignificant view of the universe. That would seem a bad idea.
If he won the wager, he would crow about it here ad-nauseum and you would look a proper fool spending the rest of your life explaining to him why he proved nothing. An argument from a weak standpoint, since you set the test.
If you won, that would not shut him up, and we fellow members would all have to back him up when he claims you didn't prove him wrong.

Quote: OnceDear

Seconded.
You are inviting him to claim 'proof' which to him equates to victory on what is no more than a coin toss.
What's the point of that. You are validating his statistically insignificant view of the universe. That would seem a bad idea.
If he won the wager, he would crow about it here ad-nauseum and you would look a proper fool spending the rest of your life explaining to him why he proved nothing. An argument from a weak standpoint, since you set the test.
If you won, that would not shut him up, and we fellow members would all have to back him up when he claims you didn't prove him wrong.

Read the wager again:
"Over ten hands (an expected 85 rolls or so), I wager that you won't have longer rolls than me more than half the time."
That's what he agreed to. It's nowhere close to a coin toss.

But the bottom line is that there's no way to evaluate -- with any statistical significance -- whether someone has a small amount of skill over a short play session. You'd need to throw the dice for weeks and I don't have that long. But the numbers he's posted translate to a very large amount of skill, not just a little. That should be apparent very quickly compared to a random shooter. If his SRR is really 1:7 then that adds over an entire roll to the average hand length, from about 8.52 to 9.6-ish (depending on a few things). If I'm shooting with an expected rolls/hand of 8.5 and he's shooting with an expected rolls/hand of 9.6, that's a big distinction. And if you examine the results he posted earlier from his session last night, the average was 9.57. That's pretty spot on, even though he clearly fumbled the recordkeeping when he reported a hand length of 1.

Now, I know he says he doesn't use an on-axis shot, but the equivalent skill level using on-axis rolling would be keeping the dice on-axis 75% of the time (compared to zero). That's a *ridiculous* amount of control, and it would be very apparent over the course of an hour whether someone was actually doing that. However dicesitter's shot travels, it will either be very evidently skillful or it won't. If it is, and he beats the wager, good for him. If it's not, he doesn't have a very good chance of succeeding with the challenge I've set out.

But I'm open to other suggestions. Any ideas on a proposition that would be more directly correlated with skill, such that if he doesn't have any, his chance of winning is 0?

Quote: MrV

I'm sorry ME, but your proposal seems deficient, IF the purpose is really to try and prove that he's not playing with the advantage he claims he has.

Ten hands doesn't seem to be enough to rule out luck: is it?

I like the idea of you guys squaring off at a craps table in front of WoV folks, but please rethink the specifics so that the results will be probative and not the result of luck.

Otherwise, what's the point?

If this objection holds, nothing will ever be set up. That's the problem with your thinking, if the bet has to 'prove' that dicesetter can influence the dice, no one will be able to think of a reasonable bet.

I refer you to the Wizard's signature line, "It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet."

Petroglyph


IT was very nice to talk you to the other day, and I am glad you have been playing and
taking some money off the cheap skates in Laughlin.

As I said Sue is coming out in April, but I cant, fishing is here and got some events
coming up and have to get the boats out and ready to go. July I think I will make
a trip to Laughlin so I will give you a call.

In the mean time tell this guy to take me up on my bet, I need the money.......


dicesetter

Mrv




It has nothing to do with dice control, this kid has been ragging my butt
because he cant stand the thought of some one else putting in an effort
that he is not willing to do.

His comment '. Over ten hands (an expected 85 rolls or so), I wager that you won't have longer rolls than me more than half the time. Shows he is willing to bet on his ability, I am willing to bet on mine. He wants to make it 20 hands
great, I am all for that.

$2000 for playing 20 hands..... cant retire on that, but if it was cash from this kid, I may just frame it
and put it above my craps table.

I am willing to stand up here... he is not.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

It has nothing to do with dice control, this kid has been ragging my butt
because he cant stand the thought of some one else putting in an effort
that he is not willing to do.

Tilting at windmills is nothing to brag about. I'm not putting in any effort in practicing dice throwing because I know better.

Quote:

His comment '. Over ten hands (an expected 85 rolls or so), I wager that you won't have longer rolls than me more than half the time. Shows he is willing to bet on his ability, I am willing to bet on mine. He wants to make it 20 hands great, I am all for that.

I'm not betting that I have any ability, I'm betting that you don't.

And the more hands the merrier: let's make it 50. We compare 50 of my hands to 50 of yours. If I make 8 total rolls in one hand (including the initial come-out and final seven-out), you need to roll 9 or more. If I make 35, you need 36 or more. If I roll a point-seven-out (2 rolls), you only need 3 or more.

Do I think you can beat my hands 26 or more times out of 50? Nope, and I'm happy to bet $2000 on it. I know what my edge is. Do you?

MATH



You don't have an edge, remember, no one can get an edge, I am ok with
that. I give myself 8 out of 10 chance to beat you... that's good odds.
There are a number of people in the country I would not make that bet
with, you may be one of them...but I don't think so, I think your just a
kid with a big mouth.

20 hands each on a neutral table with just you and me and a stickman..
Yes I think I can beat you.

dicesetter

I don't trust that I'll ever see my winnings if I leave it up to your honesty, not after the tall tales you've told in this thread. I require a neutral 3rd-party observer and escrow holder, because I don't think for a moment that you'll actually pay me after the bet when you lose. No, we'll deposit the money in escrow before either of us gets on an airplane. Otherwise no deal. I'm not about to spring for a flight to Vegas only to be stiffed by a no-show.

What's a "neutral" table? You think some tables are maybe biased in my favor somehow? And why the insistence on "just you and me and a stickman"? That's suspicious, like you're trying to hide something. You shoot in public all the time, right? Why should this be any different?

MATH



More insults, your quite a gem.


dicesetter

Quote: MathExtremist

What's a "neutral" table? You think some tables are maybe biased in my favor somehow? And why the insistence on "just you and me and a stickman"? That's suspicious, like you're trying to hide something. You shoot in public all the time, right? Why should this be any different?

For starters, I'd like to see any casino table with real chips and where they allow continued rolls without hitting the back wall to their satisfaction.

Quote: dicesitter

More insults, your quite a gem.

Don't feel insulted when people don't believe your tall tales, feel sheepish. There might be other, more ignorant corners of the Internet where a story like "I practiced dice throwing for eight years and now I can influence the dice" might be believed without any supporting evidence, but this isn't one of them. You should know better. If there's an insult to be had, it's in how gullible and ignorant you think everyone else on this forum must be.

professional stickman available.....fly me to vegas and a hooker or two will cover it.

Quote: ontariodealer

professional stickman available.....fly me to vegas and a hooker or two will cover it.

Wouldn't you prefer the Lamar Odum package?

The Challenge has been made, and accepted.

The only issue now is to define the specifics.

If one of them unreasonably refuses to engage, I'd call "welshing" and suggest a ban.

(it's not ME that I'm worried about)

Money talks, BS walks.

Sanchopanza


Hey the bottom line is Math will try to weasel out of this with some excuse.

He has everything to lose, I have nothing to lose, If I lose, well I was supposed to
be a liar and a fraud all along, now if Math loses, which he will, and if we do it in
private, where the guy has to stand up and say he got beat, and there is no
dog and pony show about luck or other nonsense.....

Well now see that is worth far more than the $2000.

I am as easy going as you can get, but I have had enough of his insulting
what I do and my integrity. This is not about dice control, this is about
his backing up his mouth... I am not mad at the guy, I just think it is time
some one called his bluff.

I have no idea which you mean about not hitting the back wall, if that is required
we should do it.

dicesetter

Quote: MathExtremist

And why the insistence on "just you and me and a stickman"?

Hopefully he meant just you and me and a stickman directly at the table. I find not wanting an independent observer sketchy at best.

Quote: AxelWolf

Hopefully he meant just you and me and a stickman directly at the table. I find not wanting an independent observer sketchy at best.

If it's hands or chips he's worried about, I get that. He and I can stand at the same end of the table and everyone else can agree not to shoot or make line bets so there are no obstacles at the far end of the table. I'm not sure the pit will be too happy about that, but if the casino isn't busy it shouldn't be a problem. I mean, it would just slow things down if we were doing this at a table with lots of other shooters.

For my part, I'm just going to make a table-minimum pass bet when I shoot, nothing else that would slow the game down. This isn't about the money, it's about the length of a hand. I'd be fine doing it on a closed table with ontariodealer on the stick if he wants, so long as the throws are called properly. That would keep the house vig from cutting into my EV. :) We could even do it on Ahigh's table -- we know he has a regulation one (unless he got rid of it...)

But I agree with you -- the idea of having a dice throwing contest entirely in private, where only a single casino employee is in the room and no peanut gallery, that's not only pointless but decidedly sketchy.

What do you say, dicesitter: is it chips and hands that you're worried about, or do you really just not want anyone else in the room? If it's the chips and hands, that can be addressed by packing the table with non-bettors. If it's actually the other people, what's the problem with that? Don't tell me it's something like performance anxiety where your shot doesn't work when others are around. I mean, if that's it then that explains the difference between your home practice table sessions and your live casino sessions, but I don't really care if you can control the dice but only at home...

Quote: MathExtremist

If it's hands or chips he's worried about, I get that. He and I can stand at the same end of the table and everyone else can agree not to shoot or make line bets so there are no obstacles at the far end of the table. I'm not sure the pit will be too happy about that, but if the casino isn't busy it shouldn't be a problem. I mean, it would just slow things down if we were doing this at a table with lots of other shooters.

For my part, I'm just going to make a table-minimum pass bet when I shoot, nothing else that would slow the game down. This isn't about the money, it's about the length of a hand. I'd be fine doing it on a closed table with ontariodealer on the stick if he wants, so long as the throws are called properly. That would keep the house vig from cutting into my EV. :) We could even do it on Ahigh's table -- we know he has a regulation one (unless he got rid of it...)

But I agree with you -- the idea of having a dice throwing contest entirely in private, where only a single casino employee is in the room and no peanut gallery, that's not only pointless but decidedly sketchy.

What do you say, dicesitter: is it chips and hands that you're worried about, or do you really just not want anyone else in the room? If it's the chips and hands, that can be addressed by packing the table with non-bettors. If it's actually the other people, what's the problem with that? Don't tell me it's something like performance anxiety where your shot doesn't work when others are around. I mean, if that's it then that explains the difference between your home practice table sessions and your live casino sessions, but I don't really care if you can control the dice but only at home...

You mean that I can't lay all sorts of odds against the points of both of you (especially the intervening numbers)? At least one former poster here was able to publish the name of a casino that had fixed the dice (and/or the table) to produce an unusually high output of sevens. We're definitely ready for more such action.

I'd like DS to shoot for 18 consecutive yo's.

Quote: dicesitter

In the mean time tell this guy to take me up on my bet, I need the money.......

Well be both know that you spill more whiskey, than I drink, but it wasn't always so.

I always envision the comradery of some wov members getting together, and other than a smidgen of verbal jousting, it remains friendly. And regardless of the outcome of the craps challenge, everyone walks away a winner. ME, who I thoroughly believe is a good guy, [as are you] made an initial wager of a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue [I knew I would have to look it up], turns out around 160 a liter +/-?.

To this red chip player that is hefty but still a friendly wager, that everyone walks away from, still smiling. You guys both can play at a level that I can't even afford to lie about. I was going to put twenty bucks on you, but I was kinda hanging out hoping to get odds.

Going to 2K, which I know you can afford, takes the fun out of it for me. Now we got bookies coming in making side bets, and someone is working security, and hormones building. Guys bumping chests, etc.

Maybe I am too trusting but many people from the board who I never met, have a good degree of trust, as far as witnessing or money. Any of the mods or certainly Axel, all care way more about their reputation than a couple grand. Just sayin, BBB, undoubtedly impeccable.

I enjoyed the SooPoo challenge, what a great way to get craps enthusiasts challenging others. If you wanted to take his money, IMO, quit messing with it and play. I wouldn't have moved it to 20 rolls, you had him on the ropes. Me, I would have left it at a bottle, but I probably get the same juice out of red chips as you guys do playing purple. I was glad to get him to roll the dice.

FWIW, until recently I hadn't seen anything that looked like an insult from either of you, but it's starting to build. I think it's a regional language difference in communication , and once someone takes umbrage, it escalates and the whole thing goes to hell.

You are both good guys, I hope it de-escalates before someone loses an eye. Everybody's talking and no ones listening.

And, hey fella "Dicesitter needs the money" : )