CHARTING A TABLE
March 6th, 2016 at 8:48:30 PM
permalink
I know losing poker players who win a tori amend ( Jamie gold - Darwin moon (2nd) jerry yang- that then think they mastered the game after all those years of practice only to learn they ran good until
They fell flat on their face- I think the same thing is in play here with the MAJOR EXCEPTION that poker does have some skill involved
They fell flat on their face- I think the same thing is in play here with the MAJOR EXCEPTION that poker does have some skill involved
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
March 6th, 2016 at 8:51:08 PM
permalink
Artemis don't waste your time taking classes , especially don't have someone else who doesn't know JACK watch you and recommend what you are doing wrong Lolololol
Best advice of the year!!!!
Best advice of the year!!!!
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
March 6th, 2016 at 9:13:53 PM
permalink
Axel
The sports world is full of people that did not do real well right away
and to be honest most quit. but there are those that kept working, I cant say
why that is except maybe a lot of them are doing something they really like
and quitting, while easy, would not have made them any happier.
You asked why it took so long and that is a valid question. I have thought a lot about
that and I guess I have a couple of answers, first I loving practicing and recording the
results so it did not seem so long, I wont lie about the money. Even being a small
better I lost a great deal of money. But what I was doing to be honest was what
Ahigh was doing, just throwing hour after hour and expecting to get better.
I was lucky enough to run into a guy that can play this game and knew how to handle
the dice. He lead to another gentleman that worked with the dice and what relationship
that had to do with the sets and what the numbers you land on mean in relationship
to where you started. I learned a couple of different shots.
Now when i go to the table i have 3 shots to use and a number of different sets which
based on practice offer adjustments i can make.
I used to go to the table with one shot and one set, and when that did not work i was
screwed. Now, If i go to a table which i like, i will find a way to be competitive.
I don't know how else to tell you
dicesetter
The sports world is full of people that did not do real well right away
and to be honest most quit. but there are those that kept working, I cant say
why that is except maybe a lot of them are doing something they really like
and quitting, while easy, would not have made them any happier.
You asked why it took so long and that is a valid question. I have thought a lot about
that and I guess I have a couple of answers, first I loving practicing and recording the
results so it did not seem so long, I wont lie about the money. Even being a small
better I lost a great deal of money. But what I was doing to be honest was what
Ahigh was doing, just throwing hour after hour and expecting to get better.
I was lucky enough to run into a guy that can play this game and knew how to handle
the dice. He lead to another gentleman that worked with the dice and what relationship
that had to do with the sets and what the numbers you land on mean in relationship
to where you started. I learned a couple of different shots.
Now when i go to the table i have 3 shots to use and a number of different sets which
based on practice offer adjustments i can make.
I used to go to the table with one shot and one set, and when that did not work i was
screwed. Now, If i go to a table which i like, i will find a way to be competitive.
I don't know how else to tell you
dicesetter
March 7th, 2016 at 7:40:08 AM
permalink
Artemis
You can certainly listen to Wizardofnothing and do nothing, that is always
a choice, and you will end up right where you are and right where he
is.
Don't listen to these folks that want you to think you cant improve your
game. I know one thing, I am so average, that if I can this anyone can.
The only real difference is all of these guys would have quit in year one
or two. Now mind you, they would stay on here for 8 years telling other
people how they were wasting their time.... (laughing)
Ask yourself one simple question...can you do it now???? If the answer is
no, you have no choice to seek help from those that have developed
a repeatable roll. Everything starts with a shot you can make over
and over.
good luck
Dicesetter
You can certainly listen to Wizardofnothing and do nothing, that is always
a choice, and you will end up right where you are and right where he
is.
Don't listen to these folks that want you to think you cant improve your
game. I know one thing, I am so average, that if I can this anyone can.
The only real difference is all of these guys would have quit in year one
or two. Now mind you, they would stay on here for 8 years telling other
people how they were wasting their time.... (laughing)
Ask yourself one simple question...can you do it now???? If the answer is
no, you have no choice to seek help from those that have developed
a repeatable roll. Everything starts with a shot you can make over
and over.
good luck
Dicesetter
March 7th, 2016 at 7:54:38 AM
permalink
Disetter , I do not think you realize what you are saying
I have no reason to quit.... I'll put what I make in one month at a casino against what anyone you know makes dice setting in a year and I promise that it will be more. Dice setting has not been proven by a single person if anything closer to the opposite is true. You spent eight years and still cannot produce anything that resembles anything close to a workable profit , if you did you would take any of us up on our offers, but you haven't. It's simply because with even the slightest proof of your system you would make tens of millions
I have no reason to quit.... I'll put what I make in one month at a casino against what anyone you know makes dice setting in a year and I promise that it will be more. Dice setting has not been proven by a single person if anything closer to the opposite is true. You spent eight years and still cannot produce anything that resembles anything close to a workable profit , if you did you would take any of us up on our offers, but you haven't. It's simply because with even the slightest proof of your system you would make tens of millions
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
March 7th, 2016 at 8:34:47 AM
permalink
Wizard
I am glad your winning, that has nothing to do with me or what I am
doing. I have won lots of money playing poker and other card games,
but I like craps more than I like poker or other card games.
dicesetter
I am glad your winning, that has nothing to do with me or what I am
doing. I have won lots of money playing poker and other card games,
but I like craps more than I like poker or other card games.
dicesetter
March 7th, 2016 at 8:54:22 AM
permalink
He's already admitted that he lost a great deal of money as a small bettor when he started playing. That's definitely running bad. Simply going from bad to average is a significant improvement. It's also what you'd expect if you understand how randomness works. However, dicesitter has attributed the change in his results to the years he spent practicing. That's not sensible, but neither is spending eight years practicing at dice throwing without understanding how to measure your results.Quote: AxelWolfIs it possible that you were just running bad or average at the beginning and you chalked that up to lack of skill and now that you're running good you're contributing that to skill when in fact its all just variance?
In fact, this scenario is very much like Warren Buffet's hypothetical coin-flipping contest that he set out in the preface to The Superinvestors of Graham and Doddsville. If you take a million people and have them predict the flip of a coin, on average about 1000 of them will get 10 right in a row. Those people might be pretty full of themselves, but in reality it's just random luck. Luck -- in this case, bad luck -- is why dicesitter lost more money than he should have when he started playing. And luck -- not skill -- is why his results reverted to near break-even over the next few years. Someone who plays 500 hours per year making $5 bets on the passline (and really, that's a lot of time) should expect to lose about $1250 or so per year. Being up or down a few hundred dollars for the year is well within expectation, and that's exactly what he's seeing now. But because his starting frame of reference was so bad, it's tempting to call out the time spent practicing as the reason his results improved. That's not accurate. He could have spent the time drinking wheat-grass smoothies instead of practicing dice tosses and then we'd be hearing about the correlation between colon health and doing better at craps. Oh wait...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 7th, 2016 at 9:30:11 AM
permalink
Thank you for posting an answer to my previous question on the 'best bets' Your answer is in the 'depends' category of diapers; which is good because that is actually accurate. Almost impossible to quantify given the variables that go into any DI equation; assuming it exists when measured properly.
Re the above, you forgot to mention that coin flippers came from all around to learn his secret technique for flipping the coin accurately.
And this is to DS. I have judged, (accurately or otherwise some can argue) that you have helped me with new insights into the DI arena. I do want to believe that one can have influence at certain times which brings me to the next comment. You did provide me with good information and additional insights.
You say you have three different shots and sets for each shot if I read you correctly. I may be wrong, and please do not hate me for saying this, but isn't the idea of having different shots and sets another way of begging the question on DI? IOW, if the shot #1 isn't working, try shot #2, etc. I do think this just another way to justify random throws. My 2-cents. If I have developed a shot and the die don't produce the numbers I want; my throw is random! Changing the shot or set isn't going to make a tinkers damn. I also have to agree with ME that 8 years should be producing better results in the show me the money arena. To my way of thinking the ultimate truth or BS detector is my bankroll.
Having said all that, I wouldn't be against inviting myself to your town so you could coach me on my toss. After reading this post: I probably won't be receiving an invitation anytime soon. (:-) Just my way of looking at the dilemma.
Re the above, you forgot to mention that coin flippers came from all around to learn his secret technique for flipping the coin accurately.
And this is to DS. I have judged, (accurately or otherwise some can argue) that you have helped me with new insights into the DI arena. I do want to believe that one can have influence at certain times which brings me to the next comment. You did provide me with good information and additional insights.
You say you have three different shots and sets for each shot if I read you correctly. I may be wrong, and please do not hate me for saying this, but isn't the idea of having different shots and sets another way of begging the question on DI? IOW, if the shot #1 isn't working, try shot #2, etc. I do think this just another way to justify random throws. My 2-cents. If I have developed a shot and the die don't produce the numbers I want; my throw is random! Changing the shot or set isn't going to make a tinkers damn. I also have to agree with ME that 8 years should be producing better results in the show me the money arena. To my way of thinking the ultimate truth or BS detector is my bankroll.
Having said all that, I wouldn't be against inviting myself to your town so you could coach me on my toss. After reading this post: I probably won't be receiving an invitation anytime soon. (:-) Just my way of looking at the dilemma.
March 7th, 2016 at 9:50:08 AM
permalink
Quote: eclecticThank you for posting an answer to my previous question on the 'best bets' Your answer is in the 'depends' category of diapers; which is good because that is actually accurate. Almost impossible to quantify given the variables that go into any DI equation; assuming it exists when measured properly.
I don't think "diapers" is what you meant to say (autocorrect?) but to your point, it's not at all hard to quantify once you can measure it properly. That's how you calculate the adjusted house edge. Measure properly, quantify the new die-face distribution, and recompute the edge. Then you'd know which bets are the best.
That's what I'd do anyway, assuming I thought I could influence the dice. It's mind-boggling that the people who advocate for spending years practicing dice throwing techniques don't spend any time at all properly measuring their results. Would you take cooking advice from a chef who never tastes his food?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 7th, 2016 at 10:29:26 AM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremistIt's mind-boggling that the people who advocate for spending years practicing dice throwing techniques don't spend any time at all properly measuring their results.
Some do, however they measure results of their practice table. Totally irrelevant. I see no one writing down results at the casino table, of their throws, in a meaningful measurement. Too much work.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
March 7th, 2016 at 11:06:00 AM
permalink
I don't recall having seen your profitable strategy. Could you post it here, please. Thanks.Quote: WizardofnothingI'll put what I make in one month at a casino against what anyone you know makes dice setting in a year and I promise that it will be more.
March 7th, 2016 at 11:08:38 AM
permalink
DeMango, there's not much of work if a shooter uses a QuickBooks Program, i.e, Premier 2016 for Bookeeper, General, Contractor, Manufacturing & Wholesale, Nonprofit, Professional Services, Retail, "Gamblers", etc... . Thanks be to Captain Jack who originally recommends QuickBooks to record the gambling results.
https://community.intuit.com/articles/1200542-download-quickbooks-products
https://community.intuit.com/articles/1200542-download-quickbooks-products
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
March 7th, 2016 at 12:06:19 PM
permalink
Even at home, most practice shooters only record the final results. That's not good enough to know whether you had a good throw. For example, suppose you use the hardway set, 1,6 on the axis, and you throw with a back-handed spin because you're trying to keep the dice on axis. The dice come up 4,2. Did you keep them on axis? If all you record is "4,2" then you can't actually tell...Quote: DeMangoSome do, however they measure results of their practice table. Totally irrelevant. I see no one writing down results at the casino table, of their throws, in a meaningful measurement. Too much work.Quote: MathExtremistIt's mind-boggling that the people who advocate for spending years practicing dice throwing techniques don't spend any time at all properly measuring their results.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 7th, 2016 at 12:09:48 PM
permalink
You're going to stand at a dice table with a laptop? That's not a very sound recommendation by whoever Captain Jack is. You really need a custom spreadsheet, not a bookkeeping program, because the financial results aren't the most important thing to record if you're actually trying to measure your hypothetical skill. You can't tell the difference between skill and luck if all you record is money.Quote: ArtemisDeMango, there's not much of work if a shooter uses a QuickBooks Program, i.e, Premier 2016 for Bookeeper, General, Contractor, Manufacturing & Wholesale, Nonprofit, Professional Services, Retail, "Gamblers", etc... . Thanks be to Captain Jack who originally recommends QuickBooks to record the gambling results.
https://community.intuit.com/articles/1200542-download-quickbooks-products
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 7th, 2016 at 12:47:43 PM
permalink
eclectic
We all have the right to our opinions.
dicesetter
We all have the right to our opinions.
dicesetter
March 7th, 2016 at 12:59:42 PM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremistQuote: DeMangoQuote: MathExtremistFor example, suppose you use the hardway set, 1,6 on the axis, and you throw with a back-handed spin because you're trying to keep the dice on axis. The dice come up 4,2. Did you keep them on axis? If all you record is "4,2" then you can't actually tell...
The casino pays on results. So, one should also measure by results. 4,2 is considered Single Pitch On Axis. No matter how it got there, just like the casino.When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
March 7th, 2016 at 1:09:19 PM
permalink
So the dice bounce off the puck and above the rail, hit the guy in the Hawaiian shirt at the end of the table, back onto the table where one of them lands cocked against a stack of chips with the 4 face upward and the other one spins on a corner like a top until it comes to rest on a 2.Quote: DeMangoThe casino pays on results. So, one should also measure by results. 4,2 is considered Single Pitch On Axis. No matter how it got there, just like the casino.
To you, that's keeping the dice on axis?
I suppose it's better to be lucky than good, but it's more important be able to tell the difference.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 7th, 2016 at 1:16:05 PM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremistI suppose it's better to be lucky than good, but it's more important be able to tell the difference.
We measure results, and quite often you cannot tell the difference, so that's of no importance. Just like the casino.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
March 7th, 2016 at 1:16:06 PM
permalink
ME, I stand corrected. Thank you.
March 7th, 2016 at 1:24:31 PM
permalink
Math, to each his own. Some gamblers prefer Excel while others prefer Quickbooks (QBs). Casinos will not allow gamblers to use a computer on the spot; thus, all gambling data are written on a small memo pad, then the data will be transferred into Excel or QBs.
QBs can be used more than just for bookkeeping once an user (i.e., Captain Jack) becomes good at QBs. If QBs can keep track of 1,000,000 inventory items, it can surely keep track of other stuff that Excel can't. For example, if you want to keep track of the 7-out-result, you just assign an account titled " 7-out" and input the 7-out-data from the memo pad into QBs. Instead an inventory report (see sample below), you can get a 7-out-report.
PS:
Excuse me, Math, I read your credentials (i.e., a Harvard graduate with an Artium Baccalaureus degree in computer science) thru your links:
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/mathextremist/blog/#post139
http://www.olympiangaming.com/products/table-games/twistem and
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stacyfriedman
I'm very impressed.
QBs can be used more than just for bookkeeping once an user (i.e., Captain Jack) becomes good at QBs. If QBs can keep track of 1,000,000 inventory items, it can surely keep track of other stuff that Excel can't. For example, if you want to keep track of the 7-out-result, you just assign an account titled " 7-out" and input the 7-out-data from the memo pad into QBs. Instead an inventory report (see sample below), you can get a 7-out-report.
PS:
Excuse me, Math, I read your credentials (i.e., a Harvard graduate with an Artium Baccalaureus degree in computer science) thru your links:
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/mathextremist/blog/#post139
http://www.olympiangaming.com/products/table-games/twistem and
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stacyfriedman
I'm very impressed.
Last edited by: Artemis on Mar 7, 2016
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
March 7th, 2016 at 1:29:55 PM
permalink
I agree that you often cannot tell the difference. But that's precisely the point -- if you can't tell the difference, you shouldn't be chalking it up to skill. It only takes two or three skilled shots out of every hundred to swing the odds in your favor. That means 97-98% of the time you have exactly the same results as everyone else. If you're lumping everything together regardless of how the dice move, that spoils your ability to know how often you actually had a successful shot.Quote: DeMangoWe measure results, and quite often you cannot tell the difference, so that's of no importance. Just like the casino.
The question isn't whether the dice randomly land on results that could be considered good. That happens all the time for everyone. The question is whether you actually controlled the dice to any degree whatsoever -- keeping them on axis, for example. How often can you throw the dice, say with the 1,6 faces on the axis, and keep those faces on the axis from the time the dice leave your hand until they come to rest? If it's more than 3% of the time and you're not making a lot of money, then you're betting incorrectly. If you're not even tracking that ratio, at best you're being terribly inefficient and at worst you have no idea whether you're actually throwing well.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 7th, 2016 at 2:09:32 PM
permalink
I understand your position and you are not wrong. But the way the dice community measures results in the final position. It cannot say, oops hit a chip, doesn't count. The casino measures results by final position and so do we. And by the way, much to your displeasure, because we have discussed this before, random is measured, again by the dice community, as 44.4% on axis. By final result, including all chips hit. If you disagree, tough feces, take it up with them.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
March 7th, 2016 at 4:12:41 PM
permalink
Demango
What Math is really telling anyone like me, is go screw yourself, nothing you have
said or recorded no matter how long you record it, no matter how different your
results are over one period and another, no matter how consistently different your
results are on one table as compared to another, it really makes no difference.
At its face, the idea a shooter can have no impact on the results is just as far off
base as the other extreme which says complete dice control is possible, both are off
the wall and held only by people that had a bias before they decided to hold that
position.
I don't sell books, tapes, video's, teach classes, nothing, I have nothing to gain or lose no
matter what position anyone takes on this subject, there is no reason to say anything
except it is what I have found. I play with lots of people around the country and I sure as
hell would not do that if I had anything to hide.
Math on the other hand is desperate because if anything I say is correct, than everything he says is
not.
dicesetter
What Math is really telling anyone like me, is go screw yourself, nothing you have
said or recorded no matter how long you record it, no matter how different your
results are over one period and another, no matter how consistently different your
results are on one table as compared to another, it really makes no difference.
At its face, the idea a shooter can have no impact on the results is just as far off
base as the other extreme which says complete dice control is possible, both are off
the wall and held only by people that had a bias before they decided to hold that
position.
I don't sell books, tapes, video's, teach classes, nothing, I have nothing to gain or lose no
matter what position anyone takes on this subject, there is no reason to say anything
except it is what I have found. I play with lots of people around the country and I sure as
hell would not do that if I had anything to hide.
Math on the other hand is desperate because if anything I say is correct, than everything he says is
not.
dicesetter
Last edited by: dicesitter on Mar 7, 2016
March 7th, 2016 at 4:20:52 PM
permalink
I'm curious dicesetter, does anyone you play with say they are a long term winner???
get second you pig
March 7th, 2016 at 4:37:41 PM
permalink
Crickets noted.Quote: WizardofnothingI'll put what I make in one month at a casino against what anyone you know makes dice setting in a year and I promise that it will be more
Quote: SanchoPanzaI don't recall having seen your profitable strategy. Could you post it here, please. Thanks.
March 7th, 2016 at 5:43:09 PM
permalink
Ontariodealer
Well that is loaded question, so I will answer that this way, I know several
that have been winning since I have known them.
dicesetter
Well that is loaded question, so I will answer that this way, I know several
that have been winning since I have known them.
dicesetter
March 7th, 2016 at 5:47:45 PM
permalink
That's the problem...THEY ALL DO.Quote: ontariodealerI'm curious dicesetter, does anyone you play with say they are a long term winner???
Yet none of them can actually show any evidence of profits.
Casinos aren't losing money.
NOT ONE PERSON has ever demonstrated anything that isn't random.
no one actually knows anyone paying the bills via DI.
Most of theses guys are just weekend warriors who like to justify gambling to themselves.
Perhaps they have real jobs, retirement money, inheritance etc etc.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 7th, 2016 at 5:51:43 PM
permalink
Even bad opinions.Quote: dicesittereclectic
We all have the right to our opinions.
dicesetter
FYI.Your teachers were wrong... opinions can be wrong.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 7th, 2016 at 6:00:20 PM
permalink
I agree you have nothing to hide.Quote: dicesitter
I don't sell books, tapes, video's, teach classes, nothing, I have nothing to gain or lose no
matter what position anyone takes on this subject, there is no reason to say anything
except it is what I have found. I play with lots of people around the country and I sure as
hell would not do that if I had anything to hide.
dicesetter
Since you make 20k practice rolls a year and I know you have video equipment why not simply record them and show proof?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 7th, 2016 at 6:03:27 PM
permalink
Gotta love the opportunists who try to find that pot of gold. Proof, would destroy the game for the sitter and the rest of us.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
March 7th, 2016 at 6:15:19 PM
permalink
"We understand the right way but it's too hard so we'll use a simple and wrong way instead." Fair enough.Quote: DeMangoI understand your position and you are not wrong. But the way the dice community measures results in the final position. It cannot say, oops hit a chip, doesn't count. The casino measures results by final position and so do we. And by the way, much to your displeasure, because we have discussed this before, random is measured, again by the dice community, as 44.4% on axis. By final result, including all chips hit. If you disagree, tough feces, take it up with them.
I applaud your honesty but not your rigor. I've no need to "take it up with the dice community" if they share it.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 7th, 2016 at 6:26:05 PM
permalink
Quote: dicesitterWhat Math is really telling anyone like me, is go screw yourself, nothing you have
said or recorded no matter how long you record it, no matter how different your
results are over one period and another, no matter how consistently different your
results are on one table as compared to another, it really makes no difference.
Certainly it makes no difference if you're recording the wrong data. If you think dice bouncing off someone's shirt, off of chips, or bouncing all over the place is a "skilled throw" just because the dice finally come to rest on one of the four non-axis faces then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But you're wrong. :)
Nobody's claiming anyone can have complete dice control. Most people are looking for evidence of *any* dice control. Seriously, show me any amount of control or influence at all with an acceptable throw (not sliding). How many times on your most recent trip did you throw the dice? Out of those, how many times did the dice maintain the axis from the time they left your hand until they came to rest? Did you *ever* get that to happen? In your entire life, have you ever intentionally thrown the dice like that?Quote:At its face, the idea a shooter can have no impact on the results is just as far off
base as the other extreme which says complete dice control is possible, both are off
the wall and held only by people that had a bias before they decided to hold that
position.
I'm a scientist, I love being proven wrong -- it's how science advances. So prove me wrong! Show me that you're doing anything more than guessing about your results and using wishful thinking. Quantify your edge. Quantify your skill. Quantify *anything.*Quote:Math on the other hand is desperate because if anything I say is correct, than everything he says is not.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 7th, 2016 at 6:34:28 PM
permalink
So what's the point in being so amendment that it works?Quote: DeMangoGotta love the opportunists who try to find that pot of gold. Proof, would destroy the game for the sitter and the rest of us.
Apparently in order to be successful It takes extreme concentration, good conditions, self-controll, money management skills, an extremely steady hand, DI classes, a coach, your own table and equipment, 10's of thousands of tracked practice rolls. years of adjustments, Short sessions before you wear yourself out.
All this Just to gain a break even or tad winning year. Apparently the edge is so small it can't possibility dent the casinos or make anyone rich.
If DI is real, it seems there are VERY FEW people in the world that can actually achieve doing it(Hell, Alan knows 50% of them, that's like a billion to 1).
There may be one successful DI for every 2000 card counters.
So, I don't think the casinos would really care.
They would highly benefit from the publicly, new craps movie and books.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 7th, 2016 at 6:54:13 PM
permalink
Sanchez, what are you referring to ? I never claimed to have a winning strategy with dice
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
March 7th, 2016 at 6:55:33 PM
permalink
Sorry meant sancho
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
March 7th, 2016 at 7:20:15 PM
permalink
Math
Laughing
Your so far out in left field your not even in the ball park. Your attempts at insults
are not even worthy of my grand kids...
To assume any one with any skill at all shoots of peoples chests or shirts is even
below your limited mental ability.
Please tell me that is not the limit of your intellect, please tell me you have more
to offer in way of a challenge to what I have offered than what you have presented.
I sure don't want to fell I have wasted so much time on someone with no more common
sense than this.
I am beginning to feel bad now, I had assumed you could tell the difference between
a shot I showed you and one that bounced off the ceiling.
This just goes to show how wrong you can be about someone.
ah damn
dicesetter
Laughing
Your so far out in left field your not even in the ball park. Your attempts at insults
are not even worthy of my grand kids...
To assume any one with any skill at all shoots of peoples chests or shirts is even
below your limited mental ability.
Please tell me that is not the limit of your intellect, please tell me you have more
to offer in way of a challenge to what I have offered than what you have presented.
I sure don't want to fell I have wasted so much time on someone with no more common
sense than this.
I am beginning to feel bad now, I had assumed you could tell the difference between
a shot I showed you and one that bounced off the ceiling.
This just goes to show how wrong you can be about someone.
ah damn
dicesetter
March 7th, 2016 at 7:52:00 PM
permalink
Dice, as to Math's intellect...please read Math's credentials thru here:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/24843-charting-a-table/22/#post518136
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/24843-charting-a-table/22/#post518136
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
March 7th, 2016 at 8:12:09 PM
permalink
Artemis
I don't need to read them, the guy has some issues to be sure.
I provided my opinion and he returns not with anything sensible, but an insult which
appears to compare my shot and those I play with, with a shot that
bounces all over the table, hits people in the chest and off every chip stack on the table.
This is not the reply of a well educated scholar of any kind, but rather the reply of a
simpleminded teenager seething at his inability to shake my confidence in what I am
doing.
Pitiful waste of an education.
dicesetter
I don't need to read them, the guy has some issues to be sure.
I provided my opinion and he returns not with anything sensible, but an insult which
appears to compare my shot and those I play with, with a shot that
bounces all over the table, hits people in the chest and off every chip stack on the table.
This is not the reply of a well educated scholar of any kind, but rather the reply of a
simpleminded teenager seething at his inability to shake my confidence in what I am
doing.
Pitiful waste of an education.
dicesetter
March 7th, 2016 at 8:29:20 PM
permalink
Quote: dicesitterOntariodealer
Well that is loaded question, so I will answer that this way, I know several
that have been winning since I have known them.
dicesetter
no, not a loaded question, i was just curious..I was part of the dice setting community for a long time just never seen anyone who made money long term.
get second you pig
March 7th, 2016 at 8:42:00 PM
permalink
This claim sure looks like quite an assertion, with an implicit hint of strategy, seeing as how the thread falls under how to win at craps:Quote: WizardofnothingSanchez, what are you referring to ? I never claimed to have a winning strategy with dice
"I'll put what I make in one month at a casino against what anyone you know makes dice setting in a year and I promise that it will be more."
If that is supposed to come from dumb luck, so be it. And that should be made clear. If not variance, then many forum members would be eager to learn just how such a feat was achieved.
March 7th, 2016 at 8:50:44 PM
permalink
Ontariodealer
Hey I am on your side on this one. I have taken a number of classes and always
wanted an answer to that same question.
Not getting one, I decided to form my own opinion on this based on the folks
I played with or saw play. I have a couple of friends that win way more than they
lose. I don't know what they did 10 or 20 years ago.
I have been told a lot of things, and to be honest some I think is true, some not,
but I wont indicate anything to you that I don't believe in.
For me, well I have played since I was 25, and I am almost 70, I have had some
decent years, but mostly I lost . I don't think I could make up for what I lost, but
I do have a goal. I have tried to do this two times before and failed in grand
style. Now that I have confidence in what I am doing I have tried again and
am about 70% to the first part of the goal. I should make that by this fall. The
second part would be easier and if I get to that point, and would erase much of
my lifetime lose and the third leg of the goal would put me ahead.
I have never been anywhere near this point before so I need to pay attention
to my play. It would surely be the kind of thing I could answer your question with.
dicesetter
Hey I am on your side on this one. I have taken a number of classes and always
wanted an answer to that same question.
Not getting one, I decided to form my own opinion on this based on the folks
I played with or saw play. I have a couple of friends that win way more than they
lose. I don't know what they did 10 or 20 years ago.
I have been told a lot of things, and to be honest some I think is true, some not,
but I wont indicate anything to you that I don't believe in.
For me, well I have played since I was 25, and I am almost 70, I have had some
decent years, but mostly I lost . I don't think I could make up for what I lost, but
I do have a goal. I have tried to do this two times before and failed in grand
style. Now that I have confidence in what I am doing I have tried again and
am about 70% to the first part of the goal. I should make that by this fall. The
second part would be easier and if I get to that point, and would erase much of
my lifetime lose and the third leg of the goal would put me ahead.
I have never been anywhere near this point before so I need to pay attention
to my play. It would surely be the kind of thing I could answer your question with.
dicesetter
March 7th, 2016 at 11:23:02 PM
permalink
Ad hominem attacks on my intelligence are not responsive. You have suggested that you can control the dice, but you and the "dice community" have also admitted to using improper techniques to record and analyze results.Quote: dicesitterI provided my opinion and he returns not with anything sensible, but an insult which
appears to compare my shot and those I play with, with a shot that
bounces all over the table, hits people in the chest and off every chip stack on the table.
This is not the reply of a well educated scholar of any kind, but rather the reply of a
simpleminded teenager seething at his inability to shake my confidence in what I am
doing.
From what I've read, if the dice come to rest on 4,2 after a careful throw (starting with 1 and 6 on each axis) that comes to rest gently against the back wall and stays on axis the entire time, you'd record "4,2" in your notes or some equivalent. And if the dice come to rest on 4,2 after the dice bounce off someone's hands, a shirt, and a passing carrier pigeon holding a flask of Jim Beam, you'd still record "4,2" in your notes.
That lack of detail means you can't tell, later on, whether either, both, or neither of the "4,2" entries in your notes were the result of a skilled throw. You only focus on results, not technique. As a result you cannot quantify your skill or your edge, and therefore can produce no sound betting strategy to take advantage of your supposed skill. That explains your results: you're mostly break-even which is consistent with not having the edge. If you actually do have meaningful skill, your results reflect that you don't actually know how to bet in order to take advantage of it. It doesn't do any good to practice throwing technique if you don't know what you should be trying to throw.
If I'm wrong about your results, show me. Show everyone. Answer the questions I posed previously: On your previous trip, how many total throws did you have and how many skilled throws did you have (on axis throughout)? If you can't answer the "skilled throws" question it's because your notes aren't sufficient. If you're insulted by that, don't blame me -- take better notes.
Now where'd that pigeon go?
Last edited by: MathExtremist on Mar 7, 2016
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
March 8th, 2016 at 2:58:15 AM
permalink
Sancho I make money at casinos but not through dice or a system just simple ap plays using games or some other method which mathematically has a certain predetermined edge in my favor
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
March 8th, 2016 at 4:31:13 AM
permalink
I hate this laptop. Had a long write-up and my palm hit the touchpad and dumped it. Hate this laptop.
Shorter version: Dicesetter: you continue to mistake questioning your methods for personal insults. They're not. Please take a step back and see it for what it is.
Methodology I think would prove something:
Start with noting exactly what sets you will use and what you intend them to do. Take a buddy you trust with you to the casino, because all tables perform differently; your results on your crap table don't matter in this.
Your buddy is your bookkeeper. Put him at the table where he can see your sets (and knows what he's looking at). He notes which set you're using on each roll.
As you release the dice (the LAST point you have any influence) you say "yes" or "no" immediately, before you know the result. You MUST be honest, as you're the only one who knows if you got the intended movement, loft, fingerspin, whatever. Your buddy makes the note. This would create both a control set (the no's) and a proof set (the yesses). Your buddy then notes the roll result by faces (including orientation of the face if that's pertinent to your roll set).
After a few thousand rolls (might take a year or two to build a dataset, as well as a casino willing to put up with this stuff), you might have enough data to be able to say you've affected the roll, if you have. As well as somewhat dampening out the variance of any particular session, by defining each roll as intentional or random. But anything recorded after the results are known is tainted; it must be a freeze-frame immediately after release. Anything done at a different table, even within the same casino, is a separate data-set (can be used in an overall review, but must be tracked separately). You have to isolate the variable you're trying to affect by eliminating as many other variables as possible.
Shorter version: Dicesetter: you continue to mistake questioning your methods for personal insults. They're not. Please take a step back and see it for what it is.
Methodology I think would prove something:
Start with noting exactly what sets you will use and what you intend them to do. Take a buddy you trust with you to the casino, because all tables perform differently; your results on your crap table don't matter in this.
Your buddy is your bookkeeper. Put him at the table where he can see your sets (and knows what he's looking at). He notes which set you're using on each roll.
As you release the dice (the LAST point you have any influence) you say "yes" or "no" immediately, before you know the result. You MUST be honest, as you're the only one who knows if you got the intended movement, loft, fingerspin, whatever. Your buddy makes the note. This would create both a control set (the no's) and a proof set (the yesses). Your buddy then notes the roll result by faces (including orientation of the face if that's pertinent to your roll set).
After a few thousand rolls (might take a year or two to build a dataset, as well as a casino willing to put up with this stuff), you might have enough data to be able to say you've affected the roll, if you have. As well as somewhat dampening out the variance of any particular session, by defining each roll as intentional or random. But anything recorded after the results are known is tainted; it must be a freeze-frame immediately after release. Anything done at a different table, even within the same casino, is a separate data-set (can be used in an overall review, but must be tracked separately). You have to isolate the variable you're trying to affect by eliminating as many other variables as possible.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
March 8th, 2016 at 7:25:20 AM
permalink
The above poster (BBB) has some good suggestions for DiceSetter. I get another suggestion. Use a headcam (see a sample below). Record the actions. Post the results onto youtube just like Mr. Clunkmess's video.
This HeadCam should be hidden under a baseball cap with a peeping hole.
This HeadCam should be hidden under a baseball cap with a peeping hole.
I'm OK with Corps which pick and choose clienteles. Both insurance companies and casinos have the right to pick and choose customers. They may keep profitable ones and kicked out the rest. But, I'm not OK with a casino supervisor who says counting cards... is like stealing food from a buffet (a foodlifting offense), or video-taping a movie in a cinema (a piracy offense).
March 8th, 2016 at 7:36:52 AM
permalink
beachbumbabs
Look I have provided lots and lots of data, I provided video of a shot that
is much different than most doing (exactly what I said it did).
Now I can understand math here, he has a personal stake in this because if
anything I say is correct, nothing he says is. But you.... see now that is a different
story now, if you don't think the following is intended to be an insult
"Certainly it makes no difference if you're recording the wrong data. If you think dice bouncing off someone's shirt, off of chips, or bouncing all over the place is a "skilled throw" just because the dice finally come to rest on one of the four non-axis faces then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But you're wrong. :)
then what more is there to say.
Beach this is a reflection on you and your judgment. Like this nonsense
As you release the dice (the LAST point you have any influence) you say "yes" or "no" immediately, before you know the result. You MUST be honest, as you're the only one who knows if you got the intended movement, loft, fingerspin, whatever. Your buddy makes the note. This would create both a control set (the no's) and a proof set (the yesses). Your buddy then notes the roll result by faces (including orientation of the face if that's pertinent to your roll set).
After a few thousand rolls (might take a year or two to build a dataset, as well as a casino willing to put up with this stuff), you might have enough data to be able to say you've affected the roll, if you have. As well as somewhat dampening out the variance of any particular session, by defining each roll as intentional or random. But anything recorded after the results are known is tainted; it must be a freeze-frame immediately after release. Anything done at a different table, even within the same casino, is a separate data-set (can be used in an overall review, but must be tracked separately). You have to isolate the variable you're trying to affect by eliminating as many other variables as possible.
I am not obligated to you in order than I can have an opinion about what I am doing.
What your asking of me to put forth to justify my opinion is no different than i make
you justify your opinion by going,around the country and watching the best players
play and you document a few thousand rolls from each of them to prove that you or
math is correct. See you feel your entitled to your opinion, without proof, yet I gave
you some and I am still not entitled.
I don't ask much, just a few thousand rolls recorded for Heavy, Howard, Superrick,
Dicepilot, Frank,Dom, Stckman, Set44, NO field five, Joe, Doc, Mr Finesse, Nick at
night and on and on. When your done, then come back and say well based on this
data, I am either believable or not.
dicesetter
Look I have provided lots and lots of data, I provided video of a shot that
is much different than most doing (exactly what I said it did).
Now I can understand math here, he has a personal stake in this because if
anything I say is correct, nothing he says is. But you.... see now that is a different
story now, if you don't think the following is intended to be an insult
"Certainly it makes no difference if you're recording the wrong data. If you think dice bouncing off someone's shirt, off of chips, or bouncing all over the place is a "skilled throw" just because the dice finally come to rest on one of the four non-axis faces then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But you're wrong. :)
then what more is there to say.
Beach this is a reflection on you and your judgment. Like this nonsense
As you release the dice (the LAST point you have any influence) you say "yes" or "no" immediately, before you know the result. You MUST be honest, as you're the only one who knows if you got the intended movement, loft, fingerspin, whatever. Your buddy makes the note. This would create both a control set (the no's) and a proof set (the yesses). Your buddy then notes the roll result by faces (including orientation of the face if that's pertinent to your roll set).
After a few thousand rolls (might take a year or two to build a dataset, as well as a casino willing to put up with this stuff), you might have enough data to be able to say you've affected the roll, if you have. As well as somewhat dampening out the variance of any particular session, by defining each roll as intentional or random. But anything recorded after the results are known is tainted; it must be a freeze-frame immediately after release. Anything done at a different table, even within the same casino, is a separate data-set (can be used in an overall review, but must be tracked separately). You have to isolate the variable you're trying to affect by eliminating as many other variables as possible.
I am not obligated to you in order than I can have an opinion about what I am doing.
What your asking of me to put forth to justify my opinion is no different than i make
you justify your opinion by going,around the country and watching the best players
play and you document a few thousand rolls from each of them to prove that you or
math is correct. See you feel your entitled to your opinion, without proof, yet I gave
you some and I am still not entitled.
I don't ask much, just a few thousand rolls recorded for Heavy, Howard, Superrick,
Dicepilot, Frank,Dom, Stckman, Set44, NO field five, Joe, Doc, Mr Finesse, Nick at
night and on and on. When your done, then come back and say well based on this
data, I am either believable or not.
dicesetter
March 8th, 2016 at 7:56:30 AM
permalink
Why can't you video a few thousands rolls on your table and show it's at least possible? You're practicing anyway and you have made videos before. That would put an end to all the skeptics. Then the focus could be on more important stuff.Quote: dicesitter
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 8th, 2016 at 8:04:53 AM
permalink
Let me help out the extreme poster here. You pick up a pair of dice and set on the 1/6 axis. The following results, out of 36 possible outcomes, are considered on axis: 22,23,24,25,33,34,35,32,44,45,42,43,55,52,53,54. I count 16 results. Help me out, oh extreme one, what is, in percentage, 16 divided by 36? But if, I'm thinking a Jordan-Byrd commercial, the dice bounce off a dealer, hit a stick, ricochet off the wood and land on a 4,2.......yup that's on axis. Happens every million rolls or so, but hey, it is what it is!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
March 8th, 2016 at 8:43:44 AM
permalink
Quote: dicesitterbeachbumbabs
But you.... see now that is a different
story now, if you don't think the following is intended to be an insult
"Certainly it makes no difference if you're recording the wrong data. If you think dice bouncing off someone's shirt, off of chips, or bouncing all over the place is a "skilled throw" just because the dice finally come to rest on one of the four non-axis faces then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But you're wrong. :)
then what more is there to say.
I don't think this was actually addressed to you; it was to whoever (demango?) said in response all that matters are results, when somebody brought up the question of the dice hitting something/someone. Still not an insult, as it questions the methodology, not you or anyone else personally. Wish you could see the difference.
Quote:Beach this is a reflection on you and your judgment. Like this nonsense
As you release the dice (the LAST point you have any influence) you say "yes" or "no" immediately, before you know the result. You MUST be honest, as you're the only one who knows if you got the intended movement, loft, fingerspin, whatever. Your buddy makes the note. This would create both a control set (the no's) and a proof set (the yesses). Your buddy then notes the roll result by faces (including orientation of the face if that's pertinent to your roll set).
After a few thousand rolls (might take a year or two to build a dataset, as well as a casino willing to put up with this stuff), you might have enough data to be able to say you've affected the roll, if you have. As well as somewhat dampening out the variance of any particular session, by defining each roll as intentional or random. But anything recorded after the results are known is tainted; it must be a freeze-frame immediately after release. Anything done at a different table, even within the same casino, is a separate data-set (can be used in an overall review, but must be tracked separately). You have to isolate the variable you're trying to affect by eliminating as many other variables as possible.
I'm saying that most of the argument between you and ME is one of variables. You haven't isolated your influence from variables of different tables, obstacles, or variance itself. I suggested one way you might go about getting a more credible result, and fighting fire with fire.
Quote:I am not obligated to you in order than I can have an opinion about what I am doing.
What your asking of me to put forth to justify my opinion is no different than i make
you justify your opinion by going,around the country and watching the best players
play and you document a few thousand rolls from each of them to prove that you or
math is correct. See you feel your entitled to your opinion, without proof, yet I gave
you some and I am still not entitled.
I don't ask much, just a few thousand rolls recorded for Heavy, Howard, Superrick,
Dicepilot, Frank,Dom, Stckman, Set44, NO field five, Joe, Doc, Mr Finesse, Nick at
night and on and on. When your done, then come back and say well based on this
data, I am either believable or not.
You are, and always have been, entitled to your opinion. However, you want your opinion to stand as proof, and yet your methodology is not precise enough to change opinion to proof. And you choose to be insulted when your methodology is questioned instead of either changing it or showing that it IS pertinent to your results. Believe it or not, I posted that as a way to help you shut ME up, by demonstrating scientific method rigorous and precise enough to use the results as you intend. You're free to disregard my suggestions, as always. :)
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
March 8th, 2016 at 8:50:04 AM
permalink
Axel
Why, these folks have not provided any proof at all showing some influence is
not possible, they have not tested the best folks in the country. the very idea
that we would consider a shot that bounces off the table, off a persons chest and
off every chip stack as a skilled shot shows their lack any understanding of this.
I have time and time again provided some data, I took time to make two
video's showing a shot that completely takes the alligator board out of play.
Now I understand this is silly, but I don't owe them that, I don't work for
free. They want a few thousand rolls from me to prove what I already know, fine
but then they should record a few thousand rolls of their own to compare to
or some of the other good players to prove their point.
In the mean time I am going to play tonight (smiling)
good luck with your play Axel
dicesetter
Why, these folks have not provided any proof at all showing some influence is
not possible, they have not tested the best folks in the country. the very idea
that we would consider a shot that bounces off the table, off a persons chest and
off every chip stack as a skilled shot shows their lack any understanding of this.
I have time and time again provided some data, I took time to make two
video's showing a shot that completely takes the alligator board out of play.
Now I understand this is silly, but I don't owe them that, I don't work for
free. They want a few thousand rolls from me to prove what I already know, fine
but then they should record a few thousand rolls of their own to compare to
or some of the other good players to prove their point.
In the mean time I am going to play tonight (smiling)
good luck with your play Axel
dicesetter
