Hardly anyone does Come bet with Odds!!!

I recently started playing craps in Vegas and I noticed I was the only one making Come bets with odds (2X odds is all I can afford). Everyone else was "place" or "buy" betting after the Come-out roll. Am I missing something? It feels like I'm out of the loop. I've made this observation over the past 15, 3-hour sessions that I've played and the tables are usually full. I play at the Boyd downtown properties.

Why don't I see more people making the Come bet and taking odds?????

WIZARD: WHAT IS YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THIS? AM I REALLY DO SOMETHING WRONG????

Not only that but I have had dealers and floor people tell me that I am wasting my time and money by playing come bets.

If you place line and come bets, you get numbers to resolve that you didn't pick. Players like to pick their numbers.

If you get a hot shooter, he might roll everybody's number except yours if you limit yourself at all. That's happened to me a lot, because I seldom make place bets, just the 6/8 rarely, and never buy bets.

There's no accounting for what dealers might think is a good bet; that when they aren't under pressure to push certain bets but are just honestly thinking bad bets are good bets. As for a pit boss, he should know better but he definitely thinks your money should be handed over.

I'm a place bettor.

I don't do come bets because the number has to roll twice to win.

Unless a shooter is throwing repeaters I will lose more making come bets with odds.

If I knew a shooter was going to throw repeaters and roll for a half hour I would make come bets with full odds continuously -- but my crystal ball broke in the Northridge earthquake.

If I had a $10 come bet and the shooter rolled a six with full odds I'd have $60 working on one number. But for $64 I can bet across.

I will never forget the time I rolled a come out 6 and for the next half hour or so rolled every other number on the table but a six. I never made the point but my $52 across added more than a thousand dollars to my rail.

Quote: GWAE

Not only that but I have had dealers and floor people tell me that I am wasting my time and money by playing come bets.

Company shills out to improve the hold.

H.E. for Come bets with 2X odds is 0.61%.
H.E. for a Place on the 6 or 8 is 1.52%.
H.E. for a Place on the 5 or 9 is 4.0%
H.E. for a Buy on the 4 or 10 is 4.76%

The H.E. for a Come bet with 2X odds is anywhere from 60% to 87% lower than the H.E. for any Place or Buy bet.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm a place bettor.

I don't do come bets because the number has to roll twice to win.

Unless a shooter is throwing repeaters I will lose more making come bets with odds.

If I knew a shooter was going to throw repeaters and roll for a half hour I would make come bets with full odds continuously -- but my crystal ball broke in the Northridge earthquake.

If I had a $10 come bet and the shooter rolled a six with full odds I'd have $60 working on one number. But for $64 I can bet across.

I will never forget the time I rolled a come out 6 and for the next half hour or so rolled every other number on the table but a six. I never made the point but my $52 across added more than a thousand dollars to my rail.

Don't you think a come bettor pressing odds as his #'s hit(as you said, you rolled them all) would also add big $ to his rack?

As Tanko says, you can't beat the math, H.E. much better with come bets/odds.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm a place bettor.

I don't do come bets because the number has to roll twice to win.

Unless a shooter is throwing repeaters I will lose more making come bets with odds.

If I knew a shooter was going to throw repeaters and roll for a half hour I would make come bets with full odds continuously -- but my crystal ball broke in the Northridge earthquake.

If I had a $10 come bet and the shooter rolled a six with full odds I'd have $60 working on one number. But for $64 I can bet across.

I will never forget the time I rolled a come out 6 and for the next half hour or so rolled every other number on the table but a six. I never made the point but my $52 across added more than a thousand dollars to my rail.

That is exactly what a floor person said to me and my response was, what happens when there is PSO? or 2 rolls and a 7?

As to the OP, I am a Come bettor, and I see the same thing. I think part of the Place bet's appeal comes from it's simplicity and intuitiveness. You see the number on the layout, place your bet, and if the number rolls, you win. The Come bet is a little more complex.

Quote: GWAE

That is exactly what a floor person said to me and my response was, what happens when there is PSO?

+1

I've been playing craps for about 20 years. I'm not an expert. I am not a regular player -- but I do play about once a month.

I just haven't seen that many long rolls where come bettors have made a killing at the tables.

In my entire life playing craps, I have walked away from a table with a $7,000 or better win only FOUR times and three out of four times it was because of a Fire Bet hit.

I have always bet the same way -- starting with table minimums and pressing after my initial outlay is won back.

As I mentioned before, I can bet all the numbers across for about the same as betting the 6 or 8 with full odds. Betting "across" gives me diversification for about the same amount of money. So approaching craps as I would approach any business or investment including mutual funds "diversification" always makes sense.

Even a come bet with double odds is the equivalent of placing three numbers. With the come bet with double odds you need a repeater to win. But take those same three units from the come bet with double odds, and you now have three different numbers that could give you a return.

That's the way I look at it. I am looking for a way to use the same amount of money but to give myself more chances to win. So once again:

Come bet travels to the 6 for $10. Add 5X odds and total exposure is now $60.
Instead, $64 gives you all six numbers across. I have to repeat the 6 to win -- in the meantime I could be winning on the other numbers. And if the 7 comes on the next roll, then my loss was only an additional $4.
Bottom line: for $4 I am giving myself more ways to win.

Quote: NewShooter808

I recently started playing craps in Vegas and I noticed I was the only one making Come bets with odds (2X odds is all I can afford). Everyone else was "place" or "buy" betting after the Come-out roll. Am I missing something? It feels like I'm a out of the loop. I've made this observation over the past 15, 3-hour sessions that I've played and the tables are usually full. I play at the Boyd downtown properties.

Why don't I see more people making the Come bet and taking odds?????

Say the minimum is 5. Shooter rolls a six. You put out a 5 coming, shooter rolls a 4, I put a place 4 out for 5. Shooter throws 8,9, 10. Meanwhile you have wagered 2x odds equaling 10,

Miracle of miracles happens and the shooter rolls a 4. You get paid 2x odds for 20 plus even money on your come for 5 for a total of 25. At the same time my place 4 for 15 nets me 27. Players choice of course but that's how I roll.

Say shooter made his point six, and we are both waiting for the new co roll. [ your come with 2x and my place] Assuming neither of us in on the line and same good shooter fires out a 7. Seven being the most frequent number, you either lose your odds and your come [if odds were working] or just your come. My 4 sits their grinning at me, saying unh hunh, we're cool.

Everything is just personal choice. You pays your dues you takes your chances.

Quote: petroglyph

Say the minimum is 5. Shooter rolls a six. You put out a 5 coming, shooter rolls a 4, I put a place 4 out for 5. Shooter throws 8,9, 10. Meanwhile you have wagered 2x odds equaling 10,

Miracle of miracles happens and the shooter rolls a 4. You get paid 2x odds for 20 plus even money on your come for 5 for a total of 25. At the same time my place 4 for 15 nets me 27. Players choice of course but that's how I roll.

Say shooter made his point six, and we are both waiting for the new co roll. [ your come with 2x and my place] Assuming neither of us in on the line and same good shooter fires out a 7. Seven being the most frequent number, you either lose your odds and your come [if odds were working] or just your come. My 4 sits their grinning at me, saying unh hunh, we're cool.

Everything is just personal choice. You pays your dues you takes your chances.

So you are arguing with HE then? of course you may get more in that scenario but what about when the come out is a 6. You have $15 on 4 and I have $5 on the come. Next throw is a 7. you just lost $15, how much did I lose?

Quote: GWAE

Quote: petroglyph

Say the minimum is 5. Shooter rolls a six. You put out a 5 coming, shooter rolls a 4, I put a place 4 out for 5. Shooter throws 8,9, 10. Meanwhile you have wagered 2x odds equaling 10,

Miracle of miracles happens and the shooter rolls a 4. You get paid 2x odds for 20 plus even money on your come for 5 for a total of 25. At the same time my place 4 for 15 nets me 27. Players choice of course but that's how I roll.

Say shooter made his point six, and we are both waiting for the new co roll. [ your come with 2x and my place] Assuming neither of us in on the line and same good shooter fires out a 7. Seven being the most frequent number, you either lose your odds and your come [if odds were working] or just your come. My 4 sits their grinning at me, saying unh hunh, we're cool.

Everything is just personal choice. You pays your dues you takes your chances.

So you are arguing with HE then? of course you may get more in that scenario but what about when the come out is a 6. You have $15 on 4 and I have $5 on the come. Next throw is a 7. you just lost $15, how much did I lose?

You lost it all. You were forced to take your wife and all friends to dinner w/ drinks and were the only one with a wallet.

Later after free drinks her friends were to wasted to drive and you had to furnish them a cab home.

Meanwhile my 4 kept hitting and I parlayed it to table max. I now own the casino and have forced the dealers into free health care and dental.

I am now an icon, all good dealers are vying to work at my casino and I have removed the come bet from all felts. : ) I am so popular that "if I mis state your name" you consider changing it.

What HE am I arguing with? Someone from above gave odds on a come bet with odds. {Tanko?} That is a combined bet. In order for the come to get to the part where odds can be added it already had to survive to get there. Once they are both sitting on the 4, they have identical chances.

Meanwhile, I can pick up my bet and go to dinner and drinks with your wife and friends, start drinking like a fish and maybe get lucky with one of the friends, while you are stuck with your come/odds and the crowd moves in kicking and screaming and chain smoking and you can't leave. The shooter goes on the roll from hell, the new buzzed crowd is making all the prop bets and blowing smoke all over you and slurring their words. A fight breaks out over an argument over a pay on the props.

Meanwhile we are on our third drink [which you are paying for, sure hope that come bet hits, you will need it, cuz if I start drinking again we will both go broke, and I will lose the casino and everybody's love also] I won't even get invited to the New years party for fear I will start hitting on the bridesmaids again and telling raunchy jokes, which they already heard while we were drinking and eating and you were waiting for your bet and I still owned the casino. Good times.

I look at it similar to Ahigh, everything is a one roll bet.

Well as Craps is a negative expectation game (dice setting believers notwithstanding) it doesn't matter what you do - it is largely personal preference and what type of person you are. Some people slavishly put up pass line and come bets and stay away from the crazy crapper bets. Others (like at Horseshoe Baltimore) have wads of bills in their hands, cigars in their mouth (Swisher Sweets of course) and are throwing money all over the felt (Hopping the nine, playing the ace/deuce, horn high yo, and the Whirl/World bet). The way one plays Craps is a mirror into their personality. Watch people play Craps and see how what they do at the table mirrors how they approach life.

Now that was a funny post petro. However you should realize by now that I am too cheap and poor to take friends to dinner. Now wifey and I to mcdonalds and you're on to something.

I learned how to play craps this summer from reading the Wizard of Odds Craps pages and watching the videos. In the videos, Wizard recommends playing Pass or Don't Pass with a continuous Come or Don't Come bet, backed up with full odds. He also says that other bets are not as good, including Place bets (I assume based on the House Edge.)

I started playing Don't Pass & Don't Come with full odds the first dozen or so sessions. After back-to-back losing sessions, I switched to Pass & Come and found it to be more enjoyable. Then I lost $900 one session playing only $5 with 3x-4x-5x odds because the shooters around the table almost never hit a number twice. During the session, the dealer suggested that I make Place bets instead of Come because I would win the first time the number is rolled. I was reluctant to do it because I had learned that Place is a worse bet with a higher HE.

When I got home, I read up on the Place bet and found that the only thing I'd miss out on is a winning $5 flat bet on a come out 7/11 or losing $5 on a come out 2/3/12. I'm more interested in winning $35 (flat bet plus odds) than only the $5 flat bet. When I did the math, I found that I could make a Place bet for the same amount of money as a flat bet with odds and I would win the same amount of money the first time the number is rolled.

6 or 8
$5 Pass/Come , $25 Odds = $30 wager
Pass/Come pays 1:1 = $5. Odds pays 6:5 = $30. Win $35
$30 Place pays 7:6 = $35

5 or 9
$5 Pass/Come , $20 Odds = $25 wager
Pass/Come pays 1:1 = $5. Odds pays 3:2 = $30. Win $35
$25 Place pays 7:5 = $35

4 or 10
$5 Pass/Come , $15 Odds = $20 wager
Pass/Come pays 1:1 = $5. Odds pays 2:1 = $30. Win $35
$20 Place pays 9:5 = $36
$20 Buy pays 2:1 (-5% vig on bet) = $39

Thanks, it makes more sense now.

Quote: BlueEagle

... When I did the math, I found that I could make a Place bet for the same amount of money as a flat bet with odds and I would win the same amount of money the first time the number is rolled.

You didn't do the math. You looked at outcomes without weighted probabilities.

How about this one? If I bet $5 on pass, I earn $5
If I bet it on 12, I earn $150

so clearly the bet on 12 is highly superior?

Now, I have already said 'I get it' for why people make place bets. But there is no point in trying to suggest the math by somebody like Wizard misled you into making the wrong bets.

I did a simulation with WinCraps Pro using the 7,600 real dice rolls in Midgley's book.

$10,000 Bankroll.

Results:

$10 PL bet w/3,4,5X odds lost $1,760

$10 Buy on the 4 and 10, plus $10 Place on the 5 and 9, plus $12 Place on the 6 and 8, lost $4,377.

$60 PL bet w/zero odds lost $4,020

$60 DP bet w/zero odds won $1,500

Even with no odds, the PL/Come and DP/DC are better bets than any Place or Buy bet.

Newshooter808




That is correct because most people just go to the table and just gamble.

There are a couple of reasons to use come bets, I will touch on a couple here.
First if you pay attention at the table you will see trends in it. Mostly short rolls
where points are not made or repeated. On this type of table the guy that starts
with say $54 across is going to get killed. The guy that starts with one come bet
and does not place a second one until he gets a hit can survive.

For me if I am shooting and am effective I will repeat a number normally within
5 rolls so the come bet is good because on a short roll where I repeat, I can
make money . In addition with 1 pass line bet and I come bet starting there are
times you can hit one of each in a roll of 6-7 rolls and make some money with
little left on the table at risk.

Last week my team played and we did well, but I played one pass line bet and only
1 come bet starting out until I hit one come bet, and at the end of the session
I made about 25% more than the others, not because I won more, but because
I left less on the table.

Those are two reasons some like a come bet, more wins on short rolls and less
given back to the table.

dicesetter

good point, thanks. I think it also depends on what kind of shooters are at the table too.

you guys will waste a lot of your time if this thread goes pages and pages.....you cannot convince the place betters that they are wrong.....craps is a simple game, pick a side, do or don't then make pass/come or dp/dc and take as much odds as your bankroll allows.....all other bets are bad.

Others have written this in different ways here, but one factor is the place bet allows one to cover all the numbers with less money at risk (assuming table minimum bets.) Players that do this are getting paid something on almost every roll that isn't a 7. This is fun and engaging. That doesn't mean it's a better bet.

Given that craps is a negative expectation game in all cases, maybe the additional fun is worth the higher cost to you.

A middle ground is to bet pass and come but take lower odds so that your bankroll doesn't get destroyed as quickly if your session starts with a few misses in a row.

Quote: GWAE

That is exactly what a floor person said to me and my response was, what happens when there is PSO? or 2 rolls and a 7?

If I have full odds on one or two come bets I will lose more money on a 7 out than I would with all of the numbers.

Come bets with odds will win more money but they'll also cost you more to make. How confident are you with your random rolls?

Quote: AlanMendelson

If I have full odds on one or two come bets I will lose more money on a 7 out than I would with all of the numbers.

Come bets with odds will win more money but they'll also cost you more to make. How confident are you with your random rolls?

The only thing that I am confident in is that I might wake up tomorrow morning.

GWAE



The only thing I know for sure is I woke up this morning.

Just for hell of it I went to my table and played for 40 minutes. 1 hand was $5 pass with 5 times
odds and 1 come bet w/5x odds, until I get two hits then 2 come bets and so on, always covering
the pass line bet with what ever is needed to cover all the flat on the comes.

the other hand $5 pass w/5x odds and single unit on inside, pressing after two hits.

hand 1 8/9/6/10/10/7
hand 2 8/6/10/6/7
hand 3 10/6/10/6/10/7
hand 4 6/11/9/5/7
changed sets

hand 5 8/6/5/8/7/2/4/7
hand 6 9/9/5/9/6/8/8/11/3/5/9/9/5/5/5/6/6/9/6/8/8/7


come bet hand made $885 and place bet hand made $725. (finishing amount, started w/$500)

I understand that as number of come bets increased so did
my pass line bet, where as place bet hand did not increase pass
line bet. But also the last 7 caught me with triple pass line bet
and 3 odds bets for $225.

For me I would rather have one come bet working with
5x odds than a single unit or multiple units bets on the
inside numbers as a roll starts out.

dicesetter

As long as we are giving ridiculous anecdotal scenarios to prove a point , here is mine: I put 2$ on Powerball and I win 334 millions, meanwhile you rolled a 7 and loss, place bets AND come bet's are stupid.

Quote: Wonko33

As long as we are giving ridiculous anecdotal scenarios to prove a point , here is mine: I put 2$ on Powerball and I win 334 millions, meanwhile you rolled a 7 and loss, place bets AND come bet's are stupid.

Wow! That's cool, you won 334 Mil?
You need a new friend? ;-)

Place vs. Come, HE vs. total control and any other kind of comparison you could make with either side touting their advantage and the other side's disadvantage. I can remember when most players were making Come bets and Place bets were the exception.

My pragmatic view -
I like Come bets because they automatically roll your money out onto the felt slowly, each new Come bet provides some hedge to a 7 Out, winning Comes bets are paid and bet returned so you have to go through the Come again. What I don't like is that the flat bet is a contract bet that must remain until a decision. When I think it's time for my money to be off I want it all off. A same shooter new Point CO roll can knock off all existing Come bets and loss of flat portions and Come bettors can over bet making constant Come bets when not warranted.

I like Place bets because I can choose my numbers and in the short term strange things can and do occur with number frequency. I can raise, lower, change numbers, turn on and off, and remove my bets as I please. Since I seldom ride to the bitter end with most shooters some number bets are unresolved which is fine. What I don't like about Place bets is that it is way to easy and tempting to bet too many numbers for too much for too soon and stay there on the felt too long.

Both require a plan and discipline or you're just betting to play.

Here a little info I'm paraphrasing from articles I've saved over the years....

Expected Value is meaningful only as a long-term phenomenon. The edge increases your chance of losing and reduces your chance of winning any specific amount. Edge isn’t the principal or sole determinant and other additional parameters may strongly influence a player’s short-term results.

Volatility characterizes the up and down swings likely to be encountered during the course of gambling action. Volatility’s measured variance (standard deviation) is useful for predicting the size but not the direction of the swings. Volatility dominates performance in the short term, while edge becomes overriding in the long term.

Edge always carries cash away from players while volatility moves money toward as well as away from bettors. Volatility overwhelms edge initially however the impact of the latter grows faster so the dominance eventually reverses.

A component of volatility is skewness or skew, and implies symmetrical gains and losses. This factor quantifies the directional bias of the bankroll shifts. Negative skew indicates lots of minor wins offset by rare major disappointments while a positive skew suggests many small setbacks and occasional rich returns. Skewness puts a number on the trade-off between a good chance at a small profit and a low probability of a big score. Skewness can't tell you how the next round will evolve but helps by providing a rational basis for deciding which bets to make to induce the types of sessions most apt to meet your personal preferences, constraints, and goals.

For those who fail to see how the above relates to bets in the long term and short term I offer the following quote. “A seven appears an average of once every six trials when two dice are thrown. Toss the dice six million times and you’ll be within a reasonable margin of error of a million sevens. Toss the dice six times and your chances are 33.5 percent of none, 40.2 percent of one, 20.1 percent of two, 5.4 percent of three, and under one percent each of four through six. Again, one – the average – is most likely, but it’s not much more probable than none.”

And just a word on mechanical testing of thousands and thousands of rolls. Does everyone here bet on every shooter, the same way each shooter, for the same amounts, always to the bitter end, without any variation regardless of what is happening? What's your longest session? Did you make adjustments and if so what do you think such testing would show.

I think we agree that there is an ebb and flow with numbers over time that can be advantageous to an astute player. If one waded through 60 shooters there would be a 73.25% probability of a 20 roll hand and a 19.02% probability of a 30 roll hand. Or another way is to say that 6 hours at the same table receiving 60 throws per hour there is a 49% chance of a run of 10 or more box numbers and an 8% chance of 15 or more box numbers.

Surely bets would be adjusted when the results tilt to hot or cold. The argument I usually receive is that it could change on the next roll. I always say is that really an argument because that's true anytime you make a bet.

Just my take.

Kelph

Quote: Kelph

Place vs. Come, HE vs. total control and any other kind of comparison you could make with either side touting their advantage and the other side's disadvantage.

You will almost always bust out a 10K bankroll at about 12,000 rolls betting $64 across.

The H.E. will average out to about 3.26% since the numbers will win and lose at different rates.

Betting $10 DP/DC with no odds, on every roll over the same number of rolls, will only lose about $!,500, and the H.E will average out to 1.38%.

Lose 10K with H.E. of 3.25%

Vs.

Lose 1.5K with H.E. of 1.38%

For whatever the appeal that Place and Buy bets might have, they come at a high cost.

"Ontariodealer" is a Craps dealer with decades of experience. His post in this thread is all that anyone needs to know about the game.

Everything else is just commentary.

I agree with you and "Ontariodealer", but there is just so many "place" bettors that it seems that the "Come bets with odds" the wrong bet to make. For example, it's like a majority of slot players betting 2 coins on a 3 coin progressive, where the max 3 coin is the best bet for the progressive.

Quote: NewShooter808

I agree with you and "Ontariodealer", but there is just so many "place" bettors that it seems that the "Come bets with odds" the wrong bet to make. For example, it's like a majority of slot players betting 2 coins on a 3 coin progressive, where the max 3 coin is the best bet for the progressive.

What makes you think the majority of slot players don't bet the maximum on progressives?

Quote: NewShooter808

I agree with you and "Ontariodealer", but there is just so many "place" bettors that it seems that the "Come bets with odds" the wrong bet to make. For example, it's like a majority of slot players betting 2 coins on a 3 coin progressive, where the max 3 coin is the best bet for the progressive.

On 3 coin games a majority will definitely play max. However on a quick hits 45 coin game I would say the majority play less. I quite often see people play 9 or 18 and not care about the progressive or not realize they have to max bet.

Newshooter808



Correct


The majority of craps players lose constantly, they are out there for the thrill or
big score.. bragging rights.

I don't play for bragging rights, I play for money. It is not that I need the money, it
is that I spend half a life time in school it seems and way to much time working
to give it back to a casino just because everyone else does.

Whether you play craps or BJ there are certain things you can do to give yourself
a better chance, and maybe that starts with not dong what everyone does.

dicesetter

Some facts I’ve gleaned from articles over the years.

If you want to choose your bets solely by HE go right ahead because that’s one way to do it. Casinos book enough bets over a relatively short range of values during most accounting periods that they can safely ignore volatility and project their performance using edge alone. Players cannot do the same with any assurance because they are seriously impacted by the effects of volatility during normal sessions much more so than by edge.

Statisticians traditionally measure volatility by the variance or by its more useful square root, the standard deviation. In the course of the action, the cumulative expectation increases linearly with the number of decisions while the overall standard deviation rises with the square root of this quantity. This is the effect that accounts for volatility dominating performance over the short haul, while edge becomes overriding in the long term.

Casinos make a lot more than the HE suggests because short term volatility swamps edge on changes in fortune, making it possible to win big or to lose a great deal more than the erosive action of the edge suggests.

I’ve yet to see players leave a table when they’ve lost the expected edge to the casino. They continue to bet whether they were ahead or behind until their chip rack is depleted. Some buy-in for more while others leave.

You can choose and play only the best HE bets and still lose your shirt if you don’t know or master what you’re doing with some planning and discipline. I’ve seen many players go from being ahead to losers and the cause was not the HE, it was the choices they freely made. Is it the need for vacation fun, greed, or loss of control? Pick any or all of them.

Sometimes things just seem to go sour right from the start regardless of how careful one might be but the really careful ones don’t seem to get burned too badly. Others just plunge down the rabbit hole regardless. While I won’t say it’s easy to get ahead I’ve found it not to be all that hard. Many of the decent players I’ve seen at tables were ahead at some point. The hard part IMHO is to stay a winner and that’s why the majority of players are losing.

Kelph

I'm saying that it's unusual that I don't see more come bets with odds, just like how its unusual to see a slot person playing 2 coins on a 3 coin progressive.

I only like them at 5x-10x odds. This type of betting doesn't increase your chances of winning but it maximizes your payouts when you do. I'm no 'Wizard' but if you're trying to hit a ±30% win limit/loss limit quicker it makes sense. If you're trying to last longer at the table before hitting your win limit/loss limit then stay at your place bet with odds with an occasional 6/8 place bet (after a 7 roll and next point that isn't a 6/8 and then take the whole 6/8 bet with winnings off if hit) to maximize your stay at table and minimize your losses AND/OR gains depending on swings.

If your trying to maximize your stay at the table AND maximize your Comps numbers. Make your place bet, then the inside $22 or $44 which will be OFF on the come out as your FIRST bet. Adjust for your bankroll, then drop to your usual betting for the rest of the hour. Remember it's your Buy-In, First Bet, and Average Play per hour. You can't really adjust your average play hence it's "your" average based on your bankroll but you can adjust the other two to maximize your comps. The pit bosses aren't stupid, they'll know what you're doing so 'TIP' if you can to alleviate their concern.

Quote: odiousgambit

If you place line and come bets, you get numbers to resolve that you didn't pick. Players like to pick their numbers.

OTOH, what about players who search for trends? If the dice show a number, isn't that a good sign that that number will likely repeat? Even players who "choose" their numbers press, regress, according to what the dice are showing. It's all about the dice. What's wrong with letting the dice "choose" your number, either w/ passline or come bets?

Quote: Sonny44

What's wrong with letting the dice "choose" your number,

Every time I get to a craps table I start to have a conversation with the dice hoping the dice will get friendly and then tip me off about the numbers they will be choosing. Unfortunately, while I know a little Yiddish and I studied Spanish and German in high school and college, I haven't been able to have a conversation with the dice yet.

Quote: odiousgambit

You didn't do the math. You looked at outcomes without weighted probabilities.

Now, I have already said 'I get it' for why people make place bets. But there is no point in trying to suggest the math by somebody like Wizard misled you into making the wrong bets.

I had no intention of giving anybody the impression that I was misled into making wrong bets. The OP asked for Wizard's perspective so I posted what the Wizard has published on the website. This thread is subjective in nature, so I then posted why my experiences led me to change my betting. I fully understand that the bets with the lowest house edge are considered to be the best bets and theoretically lose the least amount of money.

The only math I implied having done was on winning the same amount of money if I make a Place bet for the same amount as a Come/Pass bet with odds. I think the only difference is winning or losing the flat bet on the come out roll (where the lower house edge comes into play.) (When making Come bets, every roll is a come out roll.) The risk of a seven out before the Place number is hit or the Come/Pass point is made (on the same number) is the same. The odds of winning a bet on 6 or 8 are 5:6 while the odds of winning a bet on 4 or 10 are 1:2. That is why my personal preference has evolved to making Place bets on numbers that are more likely to be rolled instead of making Come bets.

Variance is a factor. You can cover all five box numbers with a Come bet and then seven out before rolling any number a second time, or you could just hit the same number repeatedly. You could seven out on the first roll after establishing a point and win even money on the Come bet whereas the Place bets would lose everything. Of course you could seven out before hitting any Place bets but after spreading a few Come bets, which is simply a losing scenario in either case.

I've won and lost with every betting strategy I've used. I'm likely to change my betting preference again by next month.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I haven't been able to have a conversation with the dice yet.

The dice communicate with each other telepathically.

As well known pranksters, they especially delight in telling each other to stay off axis whenever a DI rolls em.

Nonsense. Just like a pass (or don't) with odds, the come (or don't come) bets are better than anything else on the table.

The simple fact is that fewer people understand the come bet than the place bets like 6/8. People avoid what they don't understand.

Quote: petroglyph

You lost it all. You were forced to take your wife and all friends to dinner w/ drinks and were the only one with a wallet. ...

I really enjoyed this whole reply.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Every time I get to a craps table I start to have a conversation with the dice hoping the dice will get friendly and then tip me off about the numbers they will be choosing. Unfortunately, while I know a little Yiddish and I studied Spanish and German in high school and college, I haven't been able to have a conversation with the dice yet.

They have ears and no mouths, its probably best.

Flatiron



You are 100% correct, people don't understand.

While it is easy to explain the difference between a come bet and place, taking the
next step and explaining why you use a come bet in some situations and a place
bet in orders.. now see on this board,,, that is a step way to far....now you need
proof.

Setting that nonsense aside, the real value you get in extending your SRR
or even measuring it is your ability to adjust your betting style to what
you see.

The only thing I track in casino play is my SRR at different locations, my shot
selection and did I win or lose.

During your play you have to determine if your repeating numbers early in
your hands or if your spraying the numbers all over. Neither is right or wrong,
except that if I am repeating early I am going to use come bets. If I am
hitting 5.3.8.9.10.4 and so on, a come bet is not the way to play at that time.

You see dice schools which teach you have to make thousands of rolls of the dice
to see if you have an advantage, So you do that and the records say you have
a 1.8% advantage. So they tell you to go bet the 6 & 8... you do and your SRR
is 7 which is above average, but for what ever reason that night you threw more
5 & 9's than 6 & 8's..... your thousands of rolls at home, your elevated SRR
meant nothing, you went home a loser.

Knowing when to use a come bet and when to use a place bet, is not rocket
science, it is just common sense.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

You see dice schools which teach you have to make thousands of rolls of the dice
to see if you have an advantage, So you do that and the records say you have
a 1.8% advantage.

Which "records"?

Sancho


I think most of the dice schools use a different tool. GTC uses Smart craps, I think Heavy uses bone
Cracker, and I guess there are others.

I don't measure that because it is a waste of time.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

Sancho


I think most of the dice schools use a different tool. GTC uses Smart craps, I think Heavy uses bone
Cracker, and I guess there are others.

I don't measure that because it is a waste of time.

Thank you. So it stands that no "records" are available about any such advantage.

My last 3 sessions each had someone question me about the come bet. I believe people don't play it just because they have no idea what it is. Dealers are dumb as well since quite a few of them have told people not to play since it takes 2 numbers to make any money. So I always respond by saying why should people play the pass line then. They never have a response for that.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm a place bettor.

I don't do come bets because the number has to roll twice to win...

complete nonsense. one out of three--one third--of come bets are resolved on the first roll...you need no "number" to win a come bet...

further, just as with place bets, and ALL bets, you only need to hit a number one time once you have money onnit...

further still, one might hit a place bet twice before getting paid if, as is commonplace, one is "off" on the come out roll...as with the come bet once there is actual "action" you need only hit your bet ONCE...

even further yet! it is faulty reasoning to even conflate come and place bets as they are significantly DIFFERENT bets in important respects...

but as usual those with a poor understanding of the come bet---and you are in big company, maybe even the majority of craps players--- ignore the come out roll...

tom p

Quote: betwthelines

complete nonsense. one out of three--one third--of come bets are resolved on the first roll...you need no "number" to win a come bet.

Even better, of those resolved bets, you win two out of three.