Don't Players against Dice Control Shooters

Hi all,

So I've been playing craps for about a week now at the casinos (new player), and so far I've been in the BLACK by about $200+
Been playing $10 tables at my casino at 10x odds.
I've been trying to figure out how to play against shooters that are very good at dice control, and almost always throw 7 on come-out rolls.

Question to the Don't players:
What is your strategy against these type of players?

Currently, I've been doing Min DP, and place DC only on 4, 5, 9, 10... unless I sense a 6/8 won't roll often and a 7 might roll soon... else No Action, hoping 11 won't come around.

I've been debating if I should completely pass the round, or place pass/don't pass both, and just throw in a few DC based on what's point and do No Action until the edge numbers show.
I've been trying to avoid hot tables and throwers, but my casino has some good high rollers whenever I play.

Any thoughts?

Quote: Dredogol

... do No Action until the edge numbers show.

Please don't say that what you mean is when you have a 6 or 8 to resolve you tell the dealer "no action" and have them move the bet to the DC to start over again

If they are very good dice controllers, then you should bet the same as them, unless they have the largest wagers on the table, in which case the casino might give them unbalanced dice so you should bet against them.

Quote: Dalex64

If they are very good dice controllers, then you should bet the same as them, unless they have the largest wagers on the table, in which case the casino might give them unbalanced dice so you should bet against them.

SHHH, I have been winning for years with that strategy. PLEASE delete your post.

Dredogol, you have to admit I am the only guy taking you seriously.

I once knew nothing about craps hardly and I always remember what it was like to know nearly nothing because, well, I seem to have had to pull myself up by my bootstraps a lot in my life ... as a reslult, for me, ignorance was always mortifying.

Now, honestly, I can't comprehend people who don't care

I am interrupted so I leave you with this, and will get back to you later.

Let me finish that.

Your premise is that you are up against dice control shooters that might be messing with your results. It's controversial to advocate dice control is possible, but let's accept that it is possible for the sake of what I want to point out.

I advocated in another thread that you spend time boning up on Craps at the Wizard of Odds site, and particularly that you do not learn how to play Craps from friends, family, and dealers.

Let's stop right there and ask ourselves why you should dismiss their advice and instead listen to some guy on the internet? I can only say that you won't know why if you don't take the next step. You came here seeking advice from "all" but in fact somehow were directed to a site founded by a guy giving the best advice on the internet, a site still respecting his unwritten mandate to give the best information to players unsullied by any desire to exploit them. Sir, in the gambling world that is very rare*. So here you are one step away from the smartest gambling that can be done at negative expectation, requiring only that you investigate. I am stating to you now that you can take my advice to the bank, in the end you will be able to say "that guy never led me wrong" - but you will never know that until you see that everything I am telling you, you will see echoed from the Wizard's own words.

What has really set me off is your indication that you take "no action" darkside on the 6 and 8 sometimes. Well, good, maybe you will learn something from this, nothing illustrates better the perils of learning Craps from the wrong teachers than this canard. The math to show the folly couldn't be simpler. A 6 or 8 has 5 ways it can be rolled; darkside to win, you need a 7, and that has 6 ways it can be rolled. So for the 11 possible outcomes that matter, 6 of them favor you. In the world of advantage play, those kind of favorable odds are what dreams are made of. Yet what has happened? A dealer or another player has introduced you to the idea that it might be better to not take your chances with those kind of odds. Instead, you can move your bet back to the box where the odds are against you!

For me to try to understand that, I too can remember having bad luck with the 6 or 8 darkside and groaning when I get it again to resolve. The temptation to take "no action" I might have considered for a split second, sure. What it really is, though, is saying 'I feel my luck is so bad that I'm probably going to lose anyway, even with the odds on my side'! Honest to God, why would anyone ever step inside a casino if they considered themselves unlucky? Think about that.

Well, what about those Dice Controllers? Should you take "no action" because of them? None of these guys ever taken seriously ever claim to have but the tiniest effect on the dice. They aren't going to overcome a 9.1% edge! [I'm pretty sure 9.1% is right - I know it is close - and I will always say when I am not sure] [edited]

So it really is up to you, if it is true that you are a new Craps player. You can wallow in ignorance, shared ignorance much of it, or you can realize that in a world of information, ignorance is a choice. Choose.



*I know you see ads that might contradict that statement, but I do not include ads as part of the "information" here ... plus for info you need go the wizard of odds site. A forum is not a proper vehicle for reliable information since anyone can answer

Odiousqambit



Much of what you say here makes since.

I don't play that style, but there are two guys here in Wisconsin
that play it a lot and at fairly high stake levels.

One plays pass line with full odds and one don't come with
full odds. The other plays don't pass with large flat bet and
no odds and one large don't come flat with no odds.

Player one says hey once I get set, the odds are in my
favor so why not take odds. The other guy says I wont take odds
because I wont risk more than I get as a return.

Both guys are well above your average craps player.

Now in terms of dice control guys.... Player one does not care, he
says he makes good money on those that think they can control
the dice and hit 7 after 7. player 2 wont bet if the shooter has
a roll that seems very similar time after time.

Both indicate that they don't make it personal, if one guy hits one
of their bets they take down any remaining bets and wait till
the next shooter, never ever let one shooter take two hits on you.

Neither player would ever call no action on a 6 or 8 and give the
shooter another shot at 7 or 11.

Both indicate they would rather play at a full table so one guy that
may get hot can't have so much of an influence.

dicesetter

Quote: Dredogol

I've been trying to figure out how to play against shooters that are very good at dice control, and almost always throw 7 on come-out rolls.

Bet with them. Your question is sort of like being a Cleveland Browns fan, knowing they're playing a resurgent Seattle Seahawks at Seattle, and asking "how do I bet on the Browns to ensure a victory?" You can't. Bet the Seahawks.

If you believe the other shooters at the table are successfully controlling the dice, why on earth would you bet against that? Bet with them. There are two outcomes: one is you're right about their control and you'll win money. The other is you're wrong and it won't matter because the edge didn't change.

Lay on any number (your preference) and have your DP bet down as well... If he rolls a 7 on the first roll, you still win (unless he hits your lay). If he establishes a point, you can can now put odds on your DP bet.. If he knocks you off, wait on the next shooter. Don't out think yourself. Play by the odds.

Quote: MathExtremist

Bet with them. Your question is sort of like being a Cleveland Browns fan, knowing they're playing a resurgent Seattle Seahawks at Seattle, and asking "how do I bet on the Browns to ensure a victory?" You can't. Bet the Seahawks.

The only way is to get a great price on the Browns, as the sportsbooks last week had +1100 moneyline as a 14.5 favorite and the moneyline to spread calculator I saw online shows true odds at +735. As the Wizard said the underdogs usually are a better deal. Favorites have a "ploppy" tax on them.

You let this shooter compete his turn, remember his face, and how he sets the dice and rolls. Count how many points he gets. Let it go, this is your nemesis. If you have to bet on your scenario, place (after watching a while and seeing what numbers are repeating) 2 don't bets with odds before the come-out. Give him 3 rolls then down.