Fire Bet
Edit: FWIW, I play the fire bet when I'm shooting and when my friends are shooting & pass on it the rest of the time.
Quote: jdoggg86Hello Wizard, I like your website because it is so informative. I have a question about the game of craps. At my local casinos, there is a side bet called the "Fire Bet," It is based on how many passes in a row the shooter will make. I know what you say about side bets, but I was wondering if this bet was actually worth it.
I don't think you are correct. The 'fire bet' I have seen requires you to make SPECIFIC points before 'sevening out'. You can win the entire fire bet if you make the 6 points (4,5,6,8,9,10) in as few as six points. If you happen to make the 4 point 10 times before sevening out but make no other points you do not win the fire bet.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/
Secondly, the fire bet at several casinos nearest me are like SOOPOO claimed, where the shooter must point DIFFERENT points to count towards the fire bet. Examples:
1) Shooter makes point 6, then makes point 6, then makes point 8... According to the fire bet he's only got 2 points so far.
2) Shooter makes point 4, then makes point 6, then makes point 8... According to the fire bet he's got 3 points (which I 'think' is the minimum to make at least 'something'?)
From this more specific variation I've seen a couple 4 point fire bets and only one 5 point fire bet over the last 3-4 years, though admittedly I'm not at a craps table all too often.
Quote: RomesA few things... One, here's info on paytables and a standard fire bet where you just need to keep making ANY points:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/
Secondly, the fire bet at several casinos nearest me are like SOOPOO claimed, where the shooter must point DIFFERENT points to count towards the fire bet. Examples:
1) Shooter makes point 6, then makes point 6, then makes point 8... According to the fire bet he's only got 2 points so far.
2) Shooter makes point 4, then makes point 6, then makes point 8... According to the fire bet he's got 3 points (which I 'think' is the minimum to make at least 'something'?)
From this more specific variation I've seen a couple 4 point fire bets and only one 5 point fire bet over the last 3-4 years, though admittedly I'm not at a craps table all too often.
Base on my interpretation the logic of several mathematicians from other threads, my guess is all 6 points made on Fire Bet could occur any minutes and over 9999 consecutive times.
There are smart bets on the felt and bad bets on the felt. This is a bad bet, but we all have room for the occasional bad bet.
I missed out on a 6 pointer a few years back when I first started playing and swore I wouldnt miss another.
I cant prove this but I would swear I am up lifetime on this. Had two 6 pointers, 9 five pointers and more 4 pointers than I have kept up with.
Thats a lot of cash for a $5 or $10 bet that I would have pissed away on something else.
Quote: NostronBy the math its a bad bet but I always bet on it.
I missed out on a 6 pointer a few years back when I first started playing and swore I wouldnt miss another.
I cant prove this but I would swear I am up lifetime on this. Had two 6 pointers, 9 five pointers and more 4 pointers than I have kept up with.
Thats a lot of cash for a $5 or $10 bet that I would have pissed away on something else.
I also have, I believe, a lifetime profit on the fire bet. I've been at tables for three six pointers and once there were two five pointers back to back. I've had four five pointers myself over the years.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI also have, I believe, a lifetime profit on the fire bet. I've been at tables for three six pointers and once there were two five pointers back to back. I've had four five pointers myself over the years.
interesting
let's see if we can figure it out, shall we?
keeping in mind that, since you have not kept actual track (& who the hell has, lol), we can only approximate but self-searching, self-critical answers to 2 questions can get us started:
what is the average duration of your sessions?
(in thinking about "average duration" it might be helpful to include the very short---as few as one shooter if applicable---and the very long, marathon-like sessions, if applicable...OTOH it might be equally as fruitful to discard these and go with your "perception" of "average", especially if the two extremes are rare)
obviously these will be but rough estimates but FOR NOW simply answer these 2 questions and we can go from there...in thinking about this i already see some difficulties but shall we give it a try?
oh. wait! wait! other than (please, FOR NOW) limiting yourself to the answers to the questions above, i do need one more clarification regarding the fire bet itself...since i would never make such a bet myself (except for the crew), i am a bit unfamiliar with its nuances, but my experience is that when you bet it on a new shooter and he immediately rolls a 7, this is a "loser" & so you need to bet it again if you wish to stay up on it correct?...are there places where this is otherwise? i guess to be more specific, is it otherwise at your place(s)?
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
Quote: NostronYou are correct - when a shooter 7's out and the dice move you have to place the bet again - one bet per shooter
No.
that was not the question...obviously when a shooter "7's out", the game is over and the bet resolved...the question is when a new shooter's FIRST roll is a 7 (iow NOT a 7 out but indeed a pass line winner)... every place where i have been, the FB is then a loser and if you want to stay up on it, you need to bet it again...IOW not "one bet per shooter" at all but in fact theoretically an unlimited number of fire bets "per shooter" if she keeps rolling 7s...
however your answer, which includes "one bet per shooter" seems to at least suggest that my experience above is perhaps not the case everywhere...and that is my question: is the FB handled differently at any places elsewhere?
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
Quote: betwthelinesNo.
that was not the question...obviously when a shooter "7's out", the game is over and the bet resolved...the question is when a new shooter's FIRST roll is a 7 (iow NOT a 7 out but indeed a pass line winner)... every place where i have been, the FB is then a loser and if you want to stay up on it, you need to bet it again...IOW not "one bet per shooter" at all but in fact theoretically an unlimited number of fire bets "per shooter" if she keeps rolling 7s...
however your answer, which includes "one bet per shooter" seems to at least suggest that my experience above is perhaps not the case everywhere...and that is my question: is the FB handled differently at any places elsewhere?
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
I have played the Firebet at about 1/2 dozen casinos now. In every case, a comeout 7 is a FB loser. Craps and 11's are no action.
Edit: Here's what SHFL (the distributor) says about the FB, though it doesn't really answer the question:
Fire Bet is an exciting addition to any standard casino craps table. Players can win up to 1,000 to 1 odds on any HOT shooter.
How to Play
Players are paid odds based on how many "individual points" a shooter can successfully make before he or she sevens-out. The term "individual points" refers to when the shooter successfully makes a point from the pool of points (4, 5, 6, 8, 9 or 10) that has not been previously made. Successfully making the same point more than once will only count as one individual point towards a payoff threshold.
Rules
"Individual Points" DO NOT have to be made in any specific order.
Only a seven out results in the bet losing.
Sample Pay Table
(6) "Individual Points" pays 1000 for 1
(5) "Individual Points" pays 250 for 1
(4) "Individual Points" pays 25 for 1
For more information on paytables and odds, please contact your Bally Account Executive.
What in the f#$%..... No way, the fire bet stays until the shooter craps out after a point is made, not on a 7 come out roll. If any other casino has it any other way there is a huge (well even more) house advantage to that bet. The only feature bet ive seen gone on a 7 come out roll is the All Tall Small bets. At least so far ive played at The Golden Nugget, The Cannery, Aliante, Red Rock, The D, and i cannot be 100% of the Venetian had ATS or Fire but if it was Fire it was how i described.
Quote: Pinit2winit"I have played the Firebet at about 1/2 dozen casinos now. In every case, a comeout 7 is a FB loser. Craps and 11's are no action."
What in the f#$%..... No way, the fire bet stays until the shooter craps out after a point is made, not on a 7 come out roll. If any other casino has it any other way there is a huge (well even more) house advantage to that bet. The only feature bet ive seen gone on a 7 come out roll is the All Tall Small bets. At least so far ive played at The Golden Nugget, The Cannery, Aliante, Red Rock, The D, and i cannot be 100% of the Venetian had ATS or Fire but if it was Fire it was how i described.
I'm willing to say I could be misremembering something, but I do recall finding that an unpleasant surprise. Perhaps it was being played wrong by the casinos if I am correct about what I played.
In return, what rock have you been under the past couple days reference f-bombs? I masked this one, but WARNING: please understand extreme profanity is cause for suspension. Thanks.
Quote: Pinit2winit"I have played the Firebet at about 1/2 dozen casinos now. In every case, a comeout 7 is a FB loser. Craps and 11's are no action."
What in the f#$%..... No way, the fire bet stays until the shooter craps out after a point is made, not on a 7 come out roll. If any other casino has it any other way there is a huge (well even more) house advantage to that bet. The only feature bet ive seen gone on a 7 come out roll is the All Tall Small bets. At least so far ive played at The Golden Nugget, The Cannery, Aliante, Red Rock, The D, and i cannot be 100% of the Venetian had ATS or Fire but if it was Fire it was how i described.
THANK YOU, PINIT, YOU HAVE ANSWERED THE QUESTION!!
I was indeed confusing the FB with the ATS! I was totally wrong, wrong, wrong and my asking the question generated utterly unnecessary confusion...my own not-making of those bets was the likely cause of my blunder...
petty corrections are quite out of character for me so forgive me for just one tiny and insignificant amendment to your reply: "the fire bet stays until the shooter craps out after a point is made" should read "...after a point is established" since "he 'made' his point" is almost universally understood to mean that he had an established point and he hit it, which is actually irrelevant as to whether the FB stays or not: a point needs only to be established...yes, of course i am being a s#$%&&& to even point this triviality out as we all probably understood what you "meant" anyway...OTOH my, albeit erroneous, request was after "fine points" so looking for scrupulous accuracy is not completely out of line either...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
I don't play craps that much any more. Most of my play in the last year has been with video poker.
And while my video poker play has been at negative expectation pay tables, it's amazing how those -EV paytables become meaningless after you hit a $100,000 royal which I did a couple of weeks ago. I am not a regular $25 player -- usually playing $1 and $2 and $5 VP, but I took a stab at $25 VP after getting two $5 royals ($20,000 each) on two previous trips. A little luck goes a long way in smashing expectation.
Quote: betwthelinesNo.
that was not the question...obviously when a shooter "7's out", the game is over and the bet resolved...the question is when a new shooter's FIRST roll is a 7 (iow NOT a 7 out but indeed a pass line winner)... every place where i have been, the FB is then a loser and if you want to stay up on it, you need to bet it again...IOW not "one bet per shooter" at all but in fact theoretically an unlimited number of fire bets "per shooter" if she keeps rolling 7s...
however your answer, which includes "one bet per shooter" seems to at least suggest that my experience above is perhaps not the case everywhere...and that is my question: is the FB handled differently at any places elsewhere?
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
Sorry - I did misunderstand your question - I think other posters have answered already - but I've never seen a FB taken down on a 7 on a comeout roll.
Quote: NostronSorry - I did misunderstand your question - I think other posters have answered already - but I've never seen a FB taken down on a 7 on a comeout roll.
nope. it was my question that was misplaced and erroneous...i was thinking of the ATS bet and not the FB...but it is all cleared up now...
the poster that i directed a suggestion to "believe(s)" he has "a lifetime profit on the fire bet", which i thought might be interesting to explore but, citing limited craps play of recent, he chose not to answer my 2 questions, which even with the best self-searching, self-critical answers would have been strained...thus he declined the suggestion...so all is moot anyway...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
If I didn't post the royal photo and the check from Caesars on my forum someone here would already be saying it didn't happen. And I also have the W2G if necessary.
Yeah I have a profit on the fire bet.
I'm ahead lifetime on the $1 progressive in Caribbean Stud poker thanks to numerous quads. But I'll never play it again either so it'll stay that way.
The first time I played the Firebet at the Rio a shooter made all 6.
Not only does the bet NOT lose on a come out seven, but ...
Some casinos allow it to be made after the shooter's first rolls - until he rolls his first point number.
I've also seen casinos that will only allow the bet before the shooters first throw, regardless of the outcome, EVEN IF HE THROWS A DIE OFF THE TABLE!
I've also seen different rules at different pits in the same casino!
Quote: DJTeddyBearTo add to this Firebet dilemma...
Not only does the bet NOT lose on a come out seven, but ...
Some casinos allow it to be made after the shooter's first rolls - until he rolls his first point number.
I think that's fair. I don't know the rules but I think a player should be able to make the high house edge bet up until the first point is established. Heck, I think casinos should allow the bet to be made any time before the first point is made.
I've heard that the ATS bet can be made at any time and only the box numbers rolled henceforth would be counted. This past weekend, I decided to try the craps table at Luxor. A young lady came to the table and started playing ATS. After a few hands, she remembered to make the ATS bet after a point had been established. At first, the dealer said it was too late. However, then he said she could make the bet. I noticed that there were no other ATS bets and therefore none of the numbers had been marked. The dealer placed the bets and marked the number that rolled afterward.
this has been discussed B4Quote: BlueEagleI think that's fair. I don't know the rules but I think a player should be able to make the high house edge bet up until the first point is established. Heck, I think casinos should allow the bet to be made any time before the first point is made.
it may sound fair but the 1st point established can really move that house edge.
say you bet MORE when the better point is established
if the 1st point is a 6 or 8
the normal edge for 24/249/999 payout = -0.207627505
now the player thinks they can get an easy point out-of-the-way
so the edge skies-to a super-duper -0.256502222
higher ev, so nice
other 1st point established edges
point 4 or 10: -0.137415778
point 5 or 9: -0.199192904
the house may-over-time feel that 13.7% edge
like a tickle if less is bet
I have seen that too.Quote: BlueEagleA young lady came to the table and started playing ATS. After a few hands, she remembered to make the ATS bet after a point had been established.
btw,
did you notice the color of her shoes?
I hear the world-record-holder for the 163 craps hand moved from Utah to Las Vegas
I know her name too, no tell
Mully
thank you for sharing
still trying to win that 6 point-fire-BET
MoSun this weekend
I don't think anybody here is making that argument.Quote: mustangsallythis has been discussed B4
it may sound fair but the 1st point established can really move that house edge.
say you bet MORE when the better point is established...
My point was, some casinos will only allow that bet before the shooters first roll. If the shooter's first roll is a 2, 3, 7, 11, or 12, then some casinos will allow a late fire bet, and some won't. If the shooters first throw is off the table, some casinos will still not allow the late bet!
At Ballys a couple of months ago my buddy forgot to get on it - first roll was a no roll (dice off table) - they still wouldnt book the bet (which I find ridiculous btw - but it seems consistent w/ my experience).
Quote: NostronDJ...At Ballys a couple of months ago my buddy forgot to get on it - first roll was a no roll (dice off table) - they still wouldnt book the bet (which I find ridiculous btw - but it seems consistent w/ my experience).
that seems ultra-ridiculous...my bet is the particular box hadda temporary bee in his bonnet, a real misinterpretation of the "letter of the rule"...come back later, different box, same sit, the bet would be allowed i think...might've even been allowed in this case if the bettor was a real and regular whale too...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
Quote: BlueEagleQuote: betwthelinesthat seems ultra-ridiculous
I would think that the casino would bend over backwards to allow a player to make a bet that has a house edge of almost 21% or 25% (depending on the pay table)
it's amazing sometimes what casinos won't allow (really what some crews/boxes won't allow...it's not consistent at a given casino regarding some practices) that is tantamount to shooting themselves in the foot...
my local joint, for example, won't allow a $5 bet on the 6/8!...how dumb is that?...never mind that classic & other layouts, many still do, have a "Big 6/Big8" bet...this seem to be enforced by all crews...for a while they would mostly allow "improper" bets on those numbers, eg $10, which would pay $11, but more and more ---and again this will depend on the box/crew--- they will not book improper amounts...i was there the other week when a player tossed inna black, "gimme the 6"..."no bet!" shouted the box as the dice were in the air...nope had to be either $99 or $102, we wont book your hun (the roll thankfully was not relevant to the bet)...sheesh...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
The casinos in the main building would allow the Fire Bet at any time until the shooter rolled a box number. The casino in the MGM building would only allow it prior to the first roll regardless of what that outcome was. When I told the MGM floorman that the other side allowed it, he replied, "Still? That rule was changed a month ago." When I asked why it was changed, he didn't know, but agreed that it was stupid.
