Enviroment Temp Effect Table Results
Might the table (s) get better-result-rolls when there is a draft from the air-cond? Or from the heat (it's too hot in here)? Or a short while after either of the aforementioned temp changes?
Might the table (s) offer negative results when the temperature are constantly changing (fluctuating up and down)?
Might one craps table in 'your' casino be more prone to these temp changes than the other tables in same casino?
Does in-house staff have the option of manually setting the temp in a specific area, or is the area and/or room temperature automated and beyond their control?
Might staff even have a clue as to the affect of such thing as compared to the 'margins' of their tables?
You are about to enter 'The Twilight Zone'. ;-) tee, hee...
Quote: TwoFeathersATLHold onto your seat.
You are about to enter 'The Twilight Zone'. ;-) tee, hee...
I guess a reply from 'Rod', is better than no reply at all ;)
Quote: lostinspaceI guess a reply from 'Rod', is better than no reply at all ;)
Didn't want you to feel lonely, that's all.
Quote: lostinspaceMight anybody have an experience where they are aware of temperature changes in on the casino floor (and nearest the craps tables) affecting the influence of the outcome?
Might the table (s) get better-result-rolls when there is a draft from the air-cond? Or from the heat (it's too hot in here)? Or a short while after either of the aforementioned temp changes?
Might the table (s) offer negative results when the temperature are constantly changing (fluctuating up and down)?
Might one craps table in 'your' casino be more prone to these temp changes than the other tables in same casino?
Does in-house staff have the option of manually setting the temp in a specific area, or is the area and/or room temperature automated and beyond their control?
Might staff even have a clue as to the affect of such thing as compared to the 'margins' of their tables?
What the hell. We might as well study this along with all the other theories.
Quote: DeMangoAnother dice conspiracy? Is this Harley again?
I'm a noob to this forum and without clue as to whom Harley is.
Quote: RonCWhat the hell. We might as well study this along with all the other theories.
There were 6-7 regular shooters at the table all day long, as well as randoms.
There were a few decent rolls, however for the most part the rolls were short and seven-ed out after a few numbers. The dice went around the table (seven-out) many, many times.
When the longer rolls took place they were (at least for the most part) consistent around the entire table (as were the previous seven-outs).
The successive rolls were just a lot fewer.
Given the experience (and previous success') of the regular shooters, what's the chances of 6 or 7 seven shooters having a bad day simultaneously? And everybody whining that the table is bad.
I've seen it happen frequently at this casino (especially this particular table), and it is either too cold or too hot (temp).
Heard two of the staff talking about setting the thermostat, and I inquired if it was automated or manual.
Personally, I attempted different table positions, different trajectories, different DI-sets, at one point even a hand (opposite) that I've not used in six months, and different motions.
All the above absent any consistent success, or unusually long rolls.
In summary, there must be some outside influence?
Quote: lostinspaceI'm a noob to this forum and without clue as to whom Harley is.
There were 6-7 regular shooters at the table all day long, as well as randoms.
There were a few decent rolls, however for the most part the rolls were short and seven-ed out after a few numbers. The dice went around the table (seven-out) many, many times.
When the longer rolls took place they were (at least for the most part) consistent around the entire table (as were the previous seven-outs).
The successive rolls were just a lot fewer.
Given the experience (and previous success') of the regular shooters, what's the chances of 6 or 7 seven shooters having a bad day simultaneously? And everybody whining that the table is bad.
I've seen it happen frequently at this casino (especially this particular table), and it is either too cold or too hot (temp).
Heard two of the staff talking about setting the thermostat, and I inquired if it was automated or manual.
Personally, I attempted different table positions, different trajectories, different DI-sets, at one point even a hand (opposite) that I've not used in six months, and different motions.
All the above absent any consistent success, or unusually long rolls.
In summary, there must be some outside influence?
Aaahhh! When the regulars spoke of a hot or cold table maybe they were not talking about the HVAC?
Welcome aboard mate!
Quote: TwoFeathersATLAaahhh! When the regulars spoke of a hot or cold table maybe they were not talking about the HVAC?
Welcome aboard mate!
Many thanks for the welcome.
I understand the difference in terminology as related to HVAC and the results-of-rolls. (I'm what might be considered a 'regular' and know (and talk with) many of the other 'regulars', thus there's not confusion when the actual temp is discussed vs., the results of the dice outcomes).
However, when players start shedding clothes and staff is discussing the room temp, than it's definitely HVAC-related.
Same when the air comes on (with a cold draft blowing on the table and players) and people mention that it's cold and start adding (or at least looking) garments.
Thus, perhaps the bulk of my question is!
How does room temperature affect the boards of the table surface, and how does that change affect the outcomes of dice throws?
Does the temperature change deaden the boards (regardless of hot or cold temps), at least until the boards have fully absorbed the temp change?
How long does it take for the boards to adjust to these temp changes.
Do the dies bounce less or more in colder or warmer temps?
Best of luck in your quest!
Attempted to introduce the topic in another thread with similar minimal results.
It's difficult to believe that I'm the only person aware of these effects?
Especially when there are so many people for/against the effects of DI.
There are so many variables that contribute to a successful roll, that it's easy to understand how it may presumed as random/pure-luck when a good-roll results. Especially if the DI-shooter is without comprehension of the many variables and same affect on their own DI.
Quote: lostinspaceMight anybody have an experience where they are aware of temperature changes in on the casino floor (and nearest the craps tables) affecting the influence of the outcome?
Might the table (s) get better-result-rolls when there is a draft from the air-cond? Or from the heat (it's too hot in here)? Or a short while after either of the aforementioned temp changes?
Might the table (s) offer negative results when the temperature are constantly changing (fluctuating up and down)?
Might one craps table in 'your' casino be more prone to these temp changes than the other tables in same casino?
Does in-house staff have the option of manually setting the temp in a specific area, or is the area and/or room temperature automated and beyond their control?
Might staff even have a clue as to the affect of such thing as compared to the 'margins' of their tables?
I wouldn't imagine the 10-15 degree change in temperature to affect much in the casino, other than the patrons. So if you've got some crazy theory about the casino altering the temperature to influence an outcome, sure, its entirely possible, however not probable. The only game it could, in my mind, affect is craps because its the only game in which the player has a direct control on the outcome, but even so, I don't believe the temperature is easily adjusted or even remotely in anyone's control on the floor, and I don't believe in the long run of things, it might ever truly have a meaningful affect.
Some of us are guided by, uh, cloud formations. Cumulus, cirrus, nimbus etc. all have different messages about what is to transpire.Quote: lostinspaceIt's difficult to believe that I'm the only person aware of these effects?
Especially when there are so many people for/against the effects of DI.
Quote: Exoter175I wouldn't imagine the 10-15 degree change in temperature to affect much in the casino, other than the patrons. So if you've got some crazy theory about the casino altering the temperature to influence an outcome, sure, its entirely possible, however not probable. The only game it could, in my mind, affect is craps because its the only game in which the player has a direct control on the outcome, but even so, I don't believe the temperature is easily adjusted or even remotely in anyone's control on the floor, and I don't believe in the long run of things, it might ever truly have a meaningful affect.
Have you been to Home Depot lately?
Or looked online at home heating systems?
Depending upon the system you have, you may install thermostats in individual rooms.
Hell, corps had locked thermostats back in the 70s to limit the individual control of the thermostats, however today HVAC has improved drastically (there are even wireless units) allowing master control panels.
Given the square footage of floor space in a casino it's easy to assume there are multiple control panels for specific portions of floor space.
Most casinos will advise you that underneath the felt is plywood, however given today's lumber-world, I'm more inclined to believe that fiber board is used.
Fiber board is much more susceptible to moisture and temp changes than today's more expensive plywood.
In addition the type of wood used in either fiber-board (it's nearly impossible to determine the type used in fiber) or plywood affect the rate of change (and its effect) as well.
FWIW, go by a construction site and grab a small piece of scrap fiber board, than either place it in your refrigerator for a few hours or pour some water on it!
Quote:I don't believe the temperature is easily adjusted or even remotely in anyone's control on the floor,
I heard staff speaking of adjusting the temp on Monday and inquired (mentioned previously) if the system was manual or automated.
Quote: SanchoPanzaSome of us are guided by, uh, cloud formations. Cumulus, cirrus, nimbus etc. all have different messages about what is to transpire.
Sancho,
You certainly entitled to throw salt over your should, scratch your privates, pray to Allah or stroke your St. Christopher.
I'm sure many do!
FWIW, any skill is perishable, whether you wash cars or plant grass (and most anything imaginable), however progression is dependent upon performance in most.
temperature fluctuations most definitely can affect dice outcomes...as can a jackhammer in the street, or the sound waves booming from a nearby speaker, as can that invisible scratch in the felt, as can that chip on the hardways or on the other end of the table, as can that speck of dust, as can pyramids adjacent to the felt, as can that quick glance at someone at the other end of the table, as can a brief greeting to the new dealer coming in, as can that brief clearing of your throat, or the sound of another clearing their throat, or the sound of the slot machine behind you that has been consciously tuned out, or the sight of a cocktail waiter serving a drink, or that quick, inconsequential, totally unimportant glance to the side, or that tiny, little itch, scratched or not, or the one thousandth of a millisecond delay in your toss, or countless other things that are distractions, or the countless other things that are NOT distractions...some of these things involve the physical environment, some of these things set off conscious or unconscious but most especially INVOLUNTARY synapses in your brain that unconsciously and INVOLUNTARILY change your body, including your hands, arms, fingertips in infinitesimally minuscule, outright undetectable ways, their remoteness midst the trillions of synapses & molecular exchanges undetectable by even the most sophisticated, ultra-high-tech, ultra-sensitive, medical monitors...
...all of these random things and countless others can affect dice outcomes...there is just no way to know HOW they affect those outcomes...
it's all random
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
-g. geist: except for the skilled DI who can skew randomness
--tom p: correct
---g. geist:
----tom p: the issue there is that there is no replicable evidence such influence exists
-----g. geist: it's possible
------tom p: certainly...anything's possible
HOWEVER, that affect, if it existed at all would be as equally unpredictable as without. In other words, if you could go back in time on a specific roll and re-do it with a colder or hotter room, you might get a slightly different result but you still couldn't predict what that would be. I don't see your casino trying to influence dice hot or cold as it could affect them losing or winning no different than without any change.
I read somewhere (Can anyone confirm) that electronic roulette wheels are pressurized with a variably changing amount, that is the air pressure spin to spin is randomly changed and optimized and the purpose was to change the predictability of spins. Unlike a live dealer, the machine is spitting the ball out at a much closer consistency and optimization so if one could clock revolutions, then measure wheel position when the ball was spit out, one could predict at least octets for the ball to land, HOWEVER, they counter this with the air pressurization which affects the outcome of the speed and drop inside the dome. Again, that is what I read somewhere, need to find it again.
If that turns out to be true, then I would say that HVAC could theoretically have some impact. The amount of air pressure for an entire casino makes it feel too infinitesimal to really have any serious affect, though.
The board is under felt and its properties change little with temperature. They are designed to maintain low humidity. The "bounce" of the table would be virtually the same. Try grabbing a piece of cheap particle-board and change the temperature conditions in your house and see if you can coax different results out of it.
You just experience the bottom end of variance and if you want to blame it on the temperature and makes you feel better, go for it. Better yet, go dark.
This is what I don't get about craps folks believing that the dice are not fair or that the casino is attempting to rig the dice to screw the pass line bettor.
The game is DESIGNED for maximum gain when the dice are fair. If any set of conditions results in an advantage, that bodes bad news for the casino. The casino wants every roll to have an advantage no matter what the bet is, and the way to get that advantage is to have absolutely fair dice. That is, if the casinos did screw the dice to bring out more 7s that would mean more pass line winners (on the come out).
And how the f**k do you get dice to come out with more sevens anyway? You would have to rig two opposite sides to more weights. If it's the 1-6 that is weighted (the best bet) you would see a lot more craps, aces and box cars hit as well. If it's the 2-5 weighted you would see the hard 4s and hard 10s hit. And if it's the 4-3s weighted the hard 6s and 8s would be hit.
Consider a set of dice where the 1 and 6 were rigged to hit 20% of the time (instead of 1 in 6) leaving the 2-5 to hit 15% of the time each. The pass line now has an HE of 5.34% but the 2/12 now have a player advantage of 24%. (the 2 now hits 20% x 20% = 4% of the time, paying 1.2 (30 x.04) - .96 = .24 units). And the don't pass has a player advantage of 1.32%.
Unfortunately, indeed it would take a player about 175 rolls to recognize a weighting of this nature to 2 sigma if they were charting rolls.
Quote: betwthelines...you have just entered...the twilight zone...
temperature fluctuations most definitely can affect dice outcomes...as can a jackhammer in the street, or...
You forgot to include mustangsally being at the table to rattle the shooter about making the point. :D
If the HVAC could influence the roll of the dice, how would it be so? Would the random outcome be any different for anybody other than a DI who has the dice projected to fly through the air "x" distance, land on the felt that is made of "x" material, "x" cm thick spread over "x" foam, "x" thick on top of "x" board, and then bounce "x" distance "x" many times before hitting the pyramids and rebound "x" distance and coming to rest on "x" number?
Quote: BlueEagleYou forgot to include mustangsally being at the table to rattle the shooter about making the point. :D
good one!...yes, i was remiss neglecting to mention that one...
Quote: BlueEagleIf the HVAC could influence the roll of the dice, how would it be so?
it would be so for the similar, random reason that INVOLUNTARY, undetectable synapses, responding to outside stimuli, go off in your brain and resultant molecular exchanges physically, unconsciously affect your body...
Quote: BlueEagleWould the random outcome be any different for <snip>?
highly probably not. but there is no way to know.
it is all random and given the current state of technology and the current state of the evolution of homo sapiens how it would affect the outcome is impossible <sic> to know & reaction to it thus moot...such knowledge perhaps awaits evolution to homo deus
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
So let's finally put out on the table as many of the environmental factors that could have an impact on a dice throw:
1. temperature of dice and table
2. moisture in the air
3. wind currents
4. earthquakes in Peru
5. earthquakes in California
6. big trucks on Las Vegas Boulevard
7. kids yelling in the hotel lobby
8. dogs barking in the lobby at pet friendly hotels
9. dust particles on the layout
10. smoke in the air over the craps table
Now that we have at least those ten factors, the question is, does each of those factors help or not help the shooter to hit the desired number?
For example, will an earthquake in Peru help but an earthquake in California not help?
I can't wait to see the responses.
On second thought... I can wait.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThank heaven we have a new poster here to finally uncover the casino secret about maintaining cold tables to thwart the hopes of craps players.
So let's finally put out on the table as many of the environmental factors that could have an impact on a dice throw:
1. temperature of dice and table
2. moisture in the air
3. wind currents
4. earthquakes in Peru
5. earthquakes in California
6. big trucks on Las Vegas Boulevard
7. kids yelling in the hotel lobby
8. dogs barking in the lobby at pet friendly hotels
9. dust particles on the layout
10. smoke in the air over the craps table
Now that we have at least those ten factors, the question is, does each of those factors help or not help the shooter to hit the desired number?
For example, will an earthquake in Peru help but an earthquake in California not help?
I can't wait to see the responses.
On second thought... I can wait.
#11. Someone passing gas in the Bahamas.
Quote: AlanMendelson...Now that we have (specified environmental) factors, the question is, does each of those factors help or not help the shooter to hit the desired number?...
well, if you have been paying attention, you know that my answer is an emphatic "It Is Impossible <sic> To Know"...it is all exquisitely random, which does not say that some effect is not possible but only that there is no way to know <sic> just what that effect would be & thus the question as to whether the factors "help or not help the shooter" is moot...
grasping at straws, others here will of course demur...lol...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
Quote: betwthelineswell, if you have been paying attention, you know that my answer is an emphatic "It Is Impossible <sic> To Know"...it is all exquisitely random, which does not say that some effect is not possible but only that there is no way to know <sic> just what that effect would be & thus the question as to whether the factors "help or not help the shooter" is moot...
grasping at straws, others here will of course demur...lol...
Perhaps we could reasonably explore some things?
1) the players (shooters or otherwise) have no clue as to how and effect any changes in environment directly affect their outcome, rather they are simply aware that negative change has taken place away from their former positive results.
2) The 'eye-in-the-sky' is aware of changes in the 'margins (profit-loss)' on the tables for specific periods (not just a completed shift or daily cycle (kinda doubt that immediate-table-staff have any clue as to what the table margins (profit-loss). Are the margins analyzed hourly, shiftly and daily? Kinda doubt that general public (or any body in these forums) would be privy to any such statistics, and perhaps only the bean-counters or upper-echelon of casino management (certainly not the dealers that we all speak with!.
3) The transition period between the different variables is where in lay the confusion. The transition period is enough to effect (and impose) outcomes for shooters (both random and DI'ers) because the formerly predictable consistent results are no longer taking place.
4) After the transition period, it's a whole new ball-game with results that are entirely different from both the transition-period and the pre-transition-period.. . .and the cycle starts over again.
Try throwing the dice outside in your driveway during a snowstorm and see if you have non-uniform results.
Try dropping the dice into the deep end of a pool, and assuming the dice sink, see if you have non-uniform results when the dice settle onto the bottom.
Then try recording the results of the dice at a casino.
compare the results of the three experiments. If you can't tell which results came from which experiment, without looking at the title of the report, and all of the numbers appeared in a uniform manner in all of the experiments, then it doesn't matter what the temperature and humidity is on the inside of a casino.
Quote: Dalex64Of course it is possible to know.
Try throwing the dice outside in your driveway during a snowstorm and see if you have non-uniform results.
Try dropping the dice into the deep end of a pool, and assuming the dice sink, see if you have non-uniform results when the dice settle onto the bottom.
Then try recording the results of the dice at a casino.
compare the results of the three experiments. If you can't tell which results came from which experiment, without looking at the title of the report, and all of the numbers appeared in a uniform manner in all of the experiments, then it doesn't matter what the temperature and humidity is on the inside of a casino.
Although the output in comparisons (driveway/pool) might be considered a parallel, try getting 5-16 players wagering their chips (regardless of color) on the outcome of the results (other than a craps table), and any weight assigned to such comparisons are a worthless parallel.
Try getting somebody to invest in the so-called-facility and/or the potential for profit from any gain/loss.
Shooters (whatever method used) certainly have an influence on the outcome of the dice, as does the surrounding atmosphere (whether equipment or environment).
So what are you trying to say?
There are other threads if you are talking about dice influence.
If you are talking about environmental conditions creating different distributions of results, explain how this works and what the distribution is supposed to look like.
If the conditions create a different set of results that still have a normal distribution, then so what?
Quote: Dalex64But the outcome of any throw that the casino will allow is still uniformly random, no matter what the environmental conditions are within the casino (within reason, it can't be on fire with the sprinklers on, but I don't think they are taking any action then), no matter how the shooter throws the dice.
So what are you trying to say?
Already said it.
Quote: lostinspace2) The 'eye-in-the-sky' is aware of changes in the 'margins (profit-loss)' on the tables for specific periods (not just a completed shift or daily cycle (kinda doubt that immediate-table-staff have any clue as to what the table margins (profit-loss). Are the margins analyzed hourly, shiftly and daily? Kinda doubt that general public (or any body in these forums) would be privy to any such statistics, and perhaps only the bean-counters or upper-echelon of casino management (certainly not the dealers that we all speak with!
The casino does not need to be aware of individual players success/failure, rather their foucs is the margin of profit/loss on their table.
They (casino) has all the controls (even the automated compilation of stats), and/or their influences (outcomes as compared to profit/loss).
Quote: Dalex64If you are talking about environmental conditions creating different distributions of results, explain how this works and what the distribution is supposed to look like.
If the conditions create a different set of results that still have a normal distribution, then so what?
I'm assuming here that your requesting some sort of documentation?
Charted stats? Thermometers placed (connected and coordinated with the charted stats) at different positions around the table. (Could you imagine a charter yelling out to the shooter or stickman, "hold the dice whilst I check the temp'?)
Then comparison of those stats to probabilities and the reduction and/or increase of SRR (and others)?
No such compilation of charts/stats/temperature exist (at least derived on the open-casino-floor)!
You haven't really said anything.
Quote: lostinspaceQuote: betwthelineswell, if you have been paying attention, you know that my answer is an emphatic "It Is Impossible <sic> To Know"...it is all exquisitely random, which does not say that some effect is not possible but only that there is no way to know <sic> just what that effect would be & thus the question as to whether the factors "help or not help the shooter" is moot...
grasping at straws, others here will of course demur...lol...Quote: lostinspacePerhaps we could reasonably explore some things?
with no disrespect whatsoever intended here, no, IMO, we cannot "reasonably" explore these things...if ON THE OTHER HAND by "reasonably" you are dissing my overly lame attempt at satire,not to mention its likely inefficiency!, then your point is well taken! i wouldn't argue it...lol...
let me see if i can explainQuote: lostinspace1) the players (shooters or otherwise) have no clue as to how and effect any changes in environment directly affect their outcome, rather they are simply aware that negative change has taken place away from their former positive results.
ok here we agree that how the environmental factors would affect any outcome cannot be known...but we (implicitly at least from the above) do not agree (and so as not to be coy, explicitly do not based at least upon some of your previous posts) that the "former positive results" have anything to do that is DIFFERENT from the the environmental factors...that is to say that the outcomes are anything other than random... or put another way the "positive results" were the result of "good luck", and the "negative change" the result of "bad luck"...
Don't misunderstand this disagreement is not by itself in any way "unreasonable". But since we do not have an agreed-upon measure,, there is no rational means by which to test the hypothosis, again put another way, no "reason" to...
before i leave this let me just add that dalex64 in a post subsequent (i think) to yours here put it much more succinctly (LOL by degrees more succinctly):"There are other threads if you are talking about dice influence"Quote: lostinspace2) The 'eye-in-the-sky' is aware of changes in the 'margins (profit-loss)' on the tables for specific periods (not just a completed shift or daily cycle (kinda doubt that immediate-table-staff have any clue as to what the table margins (profit-loss). Are the margins analyzed hourly, shiftly and daily? Kinda doubt that general public (or any body in these forums) would be privy to any such statistics, and perhaps only the bean-counters or upper-echelon of casino management (certainly not the dealers that we all speak with!.
3) The transition period between the different variables is where in lay the confusion. The transition period is enough to effect (and impose) outcomes for shooters (both random and DI'ers) because the formerly predictable consistent results are no longer taking place.
4) After the transition period, it's a whole new ball-game with results that are entirely different from both the transition-period and the pre-transition-period.. . .and the cycle starts over again.
look. again don't misunderstand. i am not one to put it past "greedy corporations" to "fraudulently" (if NOT even illegally, which is very disturbing to me esp with regards to dice standards---or lack thereof---in NEVADA of all places) gain an even greater edge than they already have...biased diced---and i am not putting forth an opinion one way or another regarding them (tho i do have a nuanced one)---may be one thing but i'm sorry the first thing that comes to my mind reading your outline here is that of a circus contortionist...the complexity and quite plausibly attenuated reliability of the measurements and the very real risks seriously call to question the cost-effectiveness of such a management effort....my guess is most successful casino executives are just too crazy busy to concern themselves with frigid blasts swirling over the craps tables...
it is already bemusing and mystifying to me how a business model based upon rigged logarithms and probability mathematics can go bankrupt...the gross incompetence and mismanagement required is mind boggling...yet it happens all the time!! and makes me feel fortunate that my own corporate star was not hooked to such blockheads...
my intent is not in the least to ridicule and i remain open to correction as to what is reasonable...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p"You can't EXPECT to win. But you CAN play Tough"...tom p, 1974
Quote: risingstarsit will have negligible impact on the dice going through the air.
that is my opinion as well (hell, "negligible" might even be overstating it...lol), but that is beside the point, which is that it is impossible to know what, if anything, the impact might be...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
Everything makes a difference, but you need to understand that asking a question like that on this board
is being like your name would suggest.... lost.
The folks on here believe in nothing except in telling others what they believe in is wrong.
The truth is to the folks that work on their throw and sets everything makes a difference
and you cant be effective if you don't understand the changes you are going to see. We all
understand dice control is a fantasy, but there are some things you can do to give yourself
a chance. and paying attention to the conditions you are playing in matters.
I think the dumbest thing players do is take superstition or pre-set ideas of what is about to
happen to the table. The only way to make money on the table is for something to happen
that is not supposed to and when it happens you better be betting not saying well that cant
happen or should not happen.
dicesetter
First of them is the mechanical deriving of the playing bones. It allows to throw one or two bones so that the probability to get specific combination increases. It depends of knowledge of the phisics and the next factors:
-correct positioning of the body relative to the table;
- power of throwing;
- direction of the throw;
- Bone angle relative to the table.
About what you wrote in this post.. Such machination depents on the center of gravity of the bones which is biased to the side of the opposite face..
More often the centre of gravity changes due to the temperature changes.. SO..Be attentive if you see anything suspicious...And pass through such tables..
