Cheating at Belagio (however you spell it..)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/2-dealers-2-friends-indicted-173435090.html

Don't see this story here in the craps section, where it belongs. We should never under estimate the willingness of people to take risks and the inability of professional security personnel to notice. Even in an upscale joint like Belagio they were it reads, getting ripped off for a few years. I guess the crooks didn't get greedy but the story doesn't give us the actual wager sizes. Oh well, as Dr. Carson says "You go into prison straight, but you come out gay" which proves cheating is a learned behavior I guess?

I'm confused as to how the box boss didn't catch this. It says they were dealers, and I'm assuming meaning the 2 on both sides of the box. Every casino I've been at the box has caught dealer mistakes both for and against me before I'm about to correct them even; they're generally sharp guys in my opinion.

The article talks about passing "late" bets to the box and not identifying the bets until after the roll then paying them. Really, how many times could you get away with this? I've got to figure the box would say "Declare that bet before dice land" or something.

Anyone else think the box had to of been in on it?

Quote: Romes

I'm confused as to how the box boss didn't catch this. It says they were dealers, and I'm assuming meaning the 2 on both sides of the box. Every casino I've been at the box has caught dealer mistakes both for and against me before I'm about to correct them even; they're generally sharp guys in my opinion.

The article talks about passing "late" bets to the box and not identifying the bets until after the roll then paying them. Really, how many times could you get away with this? I've got to figure the box would say "Declare that bet before dice land" or something.

Anyone else think the box had to of been in on it?

He was to busy looking for DI's and switching in the biased dice.

Quote: AxelWolf

He was to busy looking for DI's and switching in the biased dice.

Yes, had to have been in on it. He wasn't looking for DI or dice switching at all, but for properly book bets. Oldest trick in the book claiming on unbooked prop bets. Player throws in money to the stick, says "Lemme get a three-way slammy-jammy, a two-way hopping Wazoo, and a curly-cue" as the dice are in there air, and screams when they land: "Yes, I won, my $20 hopping hard six is a winner!" All the stickman has to say is "No bet, no action, return this clown $20 after the roll."

In my experience the craps crews and their supervisors at Bellagio are the worst on the strip. I have personally seen harassment of unskilled dicesetters, ridicule of tokes that don't meet their expectation and always an attitude of some sort or another. Crosstalk that is so blatant, making the game an irritation to them is especially common there.

How could any box or floor allow a player to be paid more than once on a bet that they didn't see or hear booked? I would be amazed if some boxmen and floors were not involved. Almost anything can slide once on a busy game but a million dollars worth? If security and supervisors didn't become suspicious of the same players being paid by the same dealers under these circumstances then a house cleaning should be underway.

Resources are regularly spent catching low level card counters but no one is paying attention to employees stealing seven figures? Where is the training and direction from upper management? Many people were not paying any attention to their jobs.

"

Quote: Romes

I'm confused as to how the box boss didn't catch this. "




I haven't seen a box person at a strip craps table in years. Dealers now perform the traditional roles of the box person with the pit occasionally helping out.

I wonder if the Belagio savings in not employing a box exceed what the stolen $ were.

It's pretty freakin' easy to get hop-bets past a boxman. As a dealer, most of the time the box person wouldn't know what the hop bets were. I don't know what their layout looks like, but a quick google-image search shows there is no hop-bet area....meaning the bets just gotta be placed in a certain way to show which number is being bet. For example, it is setup as a triangle facing stick-man or box-man for a 3-way 6 or 3-way 8. Some dealers/box people set up a 2-way 9 pointing to the right because 9 is to the right of 5 (on layout). Others set it up pointing to the left, because that's where "9-o-clock" is on a clock.

If someone is primarily only betting hop-bets, he doesn't have to win every single one erroneously. He can throw in 5 chips and get a 3 way 6 or 8, 2 way 5 or 9 or 4 or 10.


PS: A "stick-man" or "stick person" is a dealer.

Box person is only watching side dice are thrown from most times, stick man responsible for watching players and dealer on side dice land. Most likely was often stickperson and base on side dice are landing working with a player on that side.

Quote: Wingnut

In my experience the craps crews and their supervisors at Bellagio are the worst on the strip. I have personally seen harassment of unskilled dicesetters, ridicule of tokes that don't meet their expectation and always an attitude of some sort or another. Crosstalk that is so blatant, making the game an irritation to them is especially common there. ...<SNIP>...

I don't know anything about craps and pit stuff, but that remark is interesting to me because of the foul reputation the property has long had among poker players. The poker room is internationally famous for needlessly uncomfortable basic physical conditions and sh*tty unmerited snooty arrogance and poor treatment of players all the way through any mid-stakes games that aren't quite in "big name player" nosebleed territory. Unfortunately, it is also still the only place in town that regularly spreads games at some stakes & structures. I also found similar "attitude" from the book in the joint.

Quote: Wingnut

Resources are regularly spent catching low level card counters but no one is paying attention to employees stealing seven figures? Where is the training and direction from upper management? Many people were not paying any attention to their jobs.

The majority of my 6 years in GamePro was telling men and women with decades of experience that they're doing it all wrong. I was a complete pain in the ass because I would all but refuse (and sometimes did refuse) to count down a player, instead trying to gain some momentum to get more coverage in back of house. Some people do "get it", but there's a lot of old blood complete with old habits that are a bitch to break.

The instant I broke out and got independent, we nabbed a 30yr long fraud totaling in the millions. Guess who were the perpetrators?

Quote: Face

The instant I broke out and got independent, we nabbed a 30yr long fraud totaling in the millions. Guess who were the perpetrators?

The dealers.

I've read that the eye watches the foxes as much as it does the chickens.

shush.

Quote: MrV

The dealers.

I've read that the eye watches the foxes as much as it does the chickens.

More so than the chickens.

Quote: Wingnut

I have personally seen harassment of unskilled dicesetters,

A distinction without a difference. However, let's don't get off topic.

Quote: Wingnut

ridicule of tokes that don't meet their expectation

That has only happened to me at Caesars Palace. First the dealer asked for a toke, claiming/stating I was making so much money it wasn't fair not to include them. Then when I added some five dollar chips to a couple of my place bets, he started the ridicule. I told him in no uncertain language to "fuck off" and took the bets down along with the tokes and odds on my passline bet. I then some how placed a lay bet on the point established(I was quick in math back then), waited for the result, and walked away from said table with my winnings.

So, as mentioned, the stickman is also a "dealer" and most likely they rotate anyhow so when a situation presents itself, the pair along with the pair of players hit them and walked away, night after night, week after week, year after year. Discipline is the key to such a crime. Don't get greedy.

God, if I ever go to Vegas I know where I'm NOT going! Our casinos aren't that big here in St. Louis but I've never had a problem with the staff anywhere! I probably won't be making a trip like Vegas any time soon but if I do I sure won't be going anywhere that the staff sucks this bad, especially considering somebody says the poker room is shitty. Poker and craps are basically all I do too.

Quote: Zer0

...especially considering somebody says the poker room is shitty. Poker and craps are basically all I do too.

Since I'm the 'someone' who said that here, in fairness I should give you a little more info on that for balance after ragging on them. The physical arrangements of the room are exceptionally cramped compared to other Las Vegas area poker rooms, and the floor staff has had a reputation for an "attitude." There have been long threads on some local poker player discussion boards for years with gripes about that stuff.

But, on the other hand... It depends on what is most important to you. And that might vary depending on why you are playing. And, I know there have been some staff changes, and some of the legendary arrogance towards players might possibly have moderated (if it isn't something infectious permanently in the air or water of the joint that made them that way - I'm not sure about that point).

It is also still one of the most consistently busy big rooms with the widest range of stakes and structures for cash games, and I think by anyone's definition is still one of the several premier rooms among the nearly 50 or so in the area for those reasons, along with Aria and Venetian, and possibly to a lesser extent Wynn. So if you want to play something other than just the plain vanilla 1/2NL that's more common on the Strip than Starbucks, or 2/5NL which is also pretty widely available on-Strip, and/or game selection among many tables of your chosen game type is your priority, then the historically snooty and cramped "B" might still belong near the top of your list. For other choices at the top of the local poker food chain, Aria has nearly as much consistent diversity of games available among NLHE (but not LHE) in a comfortable environment with mostly enthusiastic attentive staff, Venetian does the biggest volume of business of anyone and is very spacious and comfortable for playing long sessions but doesn't have quite the same wide range of games as those, and Wynn is also a significant room but not quite as major as those.

Quite a larger number of sportsbooks (but not all) do tend to get a general reputation among many for snarling staff who hate everybody, but that general statement isn't usually true of most Las Vegas poker rooms at all in my experience, so if comfort and a welcoming attitude is high on your list for poker rooms it isn't hard to find that at all. And can even be found among the books if you know which is what or are willing to just do some walking around to take your business a little ways down the boulevard or across the street 'till you find one or two that suit you.

Quote: wilbsmitt

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Quote: Romes

I'm confused as to how the box boss didn't catch this. "

I haven't seen a box person at a strip craps table in years. Dealers now perform the traditional roles of the box person with the pit occasionally helping out.

I wonder if the Belagio savings in not employing a box exceed what the stolen $ were.

It's funny you say this, because in my memory, Bellagio is one of the last casinos to still have an explicit box man at each table. I know exactly the setup you're describing and it's common at CET properties (especially the lower-level ones like Bally's and Flamingo). But I don't recall it at Bellagio.

They has a boxman at the Bellagion tables.

Doing it up old school: formal, stiff, cliquish.