Craps Buy bets on 5/9

I understand that Buy bets are charged a 5% commission (vig) on only the amount bet. If the vig is less than $1, it is always rounded up to $1. If the vig is greater than $1, fractions of 50 cents or less are rounded down and fractions greater than 50 cents are rounded up.

I understand that some casinos charge the vig up front, in which case the vig must be paid before the dice are rolled. The casinos that charge the vig only on a win subtract the vig from the payout.

I understand that the payout on 5 and 9 for a Place bet is 7 to 5 and for the Buy bet is 3 to 2.

What I am confused about is why The Wizard says "5 and 9: Place bet always better, unless commission on Buy is on win only."

From my calculations, that statement is true only if the bet amount is $10-$24. According to my math, regardless of when the vig is charged, a Place bet is always better on any bet less than $10, while a Buy bet is always better whenever the bet amount is $25 or greater.

$25 Place bet on 5 and 9 pays $35
$25 Buy bet on 5 and 9 pays $36 on win
$24 Buy bet and $1 vig on 5 and 9 pays $36

$50 Place bet on 5 and 9 pays $70
$50 Buy bet on 5 and 9 pays $73 on win
$48 Buy bet and $2 vig on 5 and 9 pays $72



My experience this week:
At Excalibur, I made $25 Buy bets on 5 & 9 and was paid $36.
At Aria, when I said I wanted to Buy the 5 & 9 for $25, I was told "We don't do that." When I asked why I couldn't Buy the 5 & 9, I was told the 4 & 10 are "free" but I would have to pay $1 up front for the 5 & 9. I believe he also said I would have to pay $1 again on the win. It was a full table and the dealer was busy with other players' bets, so I didn't press the issue.
An earlier visit to Aria, at a $25 minimum table, I made $25 Buy bets on 4 & 10 that paid $49. Dealer told me they are going to automatic Buys on the 4 & 10 soon and the Buy lamer won't be necessary.

In my mind, the amount bet is what it costs me to make the wager before the roll. Someone else's "apples-to-apples" may be the actual action on the table.

$25 Place bet on 5 and 9 pays $35
$25 Buy bet on 5 and 9 pays $36 on win
$25 Buy bet plus $1 vig on 5 and 9 pays $37 for a $36 win on first hit

$50 Place bet on 5 and 9 pays $70
$50 Buy bet on 5 and 9 pays $73 on win
$50 Buy bet plus $2 vig on 5 and 9 pays $75 for a $73 win on first hit

I'm pretty sure the Wiz's page is based on the theory that you can only go to $20 for $1 vig, not $25. If you're paying $1 on $25, that's only a 4% commission so that changes the overall percentage edge. Rounding rules are not uniform; I've made $39 buy 4 bets for $1 before. Try asking around how high you can go on the buy 4 for $1. Sometimes it'll be $25, sometimes $29, sometimes $35, etc. If you can make a $29 buy on the 4 for $1, that's only a 3.4% commission.

The Aria dealer is mistaken: you'd never have to pay again on the win after pre-paying commission unless you kept the bet up, which isn't paying on the win, it's paying in advance for the next bet. If you did that and then took the bet down before resolution, they *should* give the commission back. They don't always catch that, but in practice it's rare for someone to take down a buy or lay bet anyway.

But you have to pay attention: I used to do a hedge spread with 3 green chips: $50 no-4 (or no-10) plus $12 each 6/8. They'd charge $1 commission on the $50 no-4 and then I'd press the place bets $6 each whenever either hit; after 3 hits I'd take down the lay and just keep the place bets up. That's when I'd have to remind the dealer to refund the lay commission.

Otherwise, the convenient thing about that spread (for what it's worth) is that it's a complete wash when the 7 shows. $50 pays $25, $24 goes to remake the place bets and the $1 pays for the lay again. You're basically paying the lay commission to transfer the risk from 7 to 4.

I didn't have a clear understanding about the rounding of the vig nor the difference between a vig always being charged versus only on a win until I read The Buy Bet page on CrapsPit. My current understanding is based on the information on that page. My impression is a $30 buy would incur a $1.50 vig, rounded down to $1. Obviously house rules vary and it is imperative to know which house rules offer the best benefit.

One other thing that I was still uncertain about is if the vig is charged up front, would it would be advantageous when the number hit more than once. I concluded that the odds of hitting the number more than once would not favor having to pay the vig up front, however you are implying that the vig would have to be paid again each time the number is hit. This is clearly a disadvantage.

Quote: BlueEagle

One other thing that I was still uncertain about is if the vig is charged up front, would it would be advantageous when the number hit more than once. I concluded that the odds of hitting the number more than once would not favor having to pay the vig up front, however you are implying that the vig would have to be paid again each time the number is hit. This is clearly a disadvantage.

Oh absolutely, it's one vig per bet resolution, not once up-front for as long as the bet doesn't lose. That's what the dealer meant to say. Plus, that'd be an absolute mess once you started pressing buy bets.

Loose "Vegas rules" on the buy usually go up to $29 on at least the 4 and 10 (I have never looked into the 5 and 9 closely). I would imagine most Vegas casinos follow suit with the 5 and 9, but Aria's move saddens me deeply, these casinos will only offer what they have to not to piss off their customers.

To OP: $25 buy on the 5 or 9 is stupid. I hate to be so blunt, but you're getting screwed if you don't buy for an even number (same with buying the 6,8 outside of a multiple of 5). $25 pays $37.5, rounded DOWN to $37, $1 vig pays $36 total; $24 pays $36, no rounding, $1 vig pays $35 total. In short, you are betting $1 less to win $1 less (which is a great deal for a bet that pays more than 1:1). Buy for $28, $24, or $20 depending on where they make the cutoff. I get the house edge of a $28 buy bet on the 5 or 9 at 1.42% ($29 buy on 4/10 to pay $57 is 1.0%). This is an acceptable range if you're not going to be an anal retentive pass + come only player (I can't stand that strategy).

Buying the 5 or 9 for an uneven number is just as silly as taking odds on a point of 5 or 9 for an uneven number (I figured using "odds" in both of its forms in the same sentence would have been confusing).

Just buy the 5/9 for $30, pay $6 on the win and get $50. Such a deal!.

In Biloxi it seems few casinos have the same rules. MGM pays $36 for a $25 5 as does Hard Rock. Harrah's pays $35 for a bought $24 5 or a placed $25 5. No you cannot buy a 5 at $25! Treasure Bay same rules as Harrah's.

Quote: MathExtremist

I used to do a hedge spread with 3 green chips: $50 no-4 (or no-10) plus $12 each 6/8. They'd charge $1 commission on the $50 no-4 and then I'd press the place bets $6 each whenever either hit; after 3 hits I'd take down the lay and just keep the place bets up. That's when I'd have to remind the dealer to refund the lay commission.

Otherwise, the convenient thing about that spread (for what it's worth) is that it's a complete wash when the 7 shows. $50 pays $25, $24 goes to remake the place bets and the $1 pays for the lay again. You're basically paying the lay commission to transfer the risk from 7 to 4.

Just splitting hairs here, but this is NOT a hedge bet since each bet could win, or both could loose. My understanding of a hedge bet is bets that are at odds with one another with only one outcome or winner (don't come and come at the same time, hard 10 and lay 10, any craps and passline)

I play like this often and I am putting a lay up and taking it down frequently. I'm sure it is a huge pain for the dealer - but they get paid plenty from my loose tips. I tip a ridiculous amount so they don't get pissed.

Quote: slackyhacky

I play like this often and I am putting a lay up and taking it down frequently. I'm sure it is a huge pain for the dealer - but they get paid plenty from my loose tips. I tip a ridiculous amount so they don't get pissed.

Realizing how much (quantifying) I tip after hearing so many whining dealers is the main reason I don't worry about HE% as much as I used to.

Pie-chart the "cost to play" including transportation and tips and so on. If you really want to compare it to a job, cost opportunity on your time is really the biggest cost to gambling.

The house edge is the smallest number in any analysis I have ever done on what is the cost to play the game. The casino does not get much from me; the dealers get more (they still complain sometimes); and you just can't ever get away from the guy who is selling you jet fuel or gasoline to fuel your gambling habits.

If you keep ALL of this in mind, you MUST realize that you are there to be entertained. And if you ARE there to gamble for a life-changing result (IE: a good one) full pressure and/or TRYING to get rid of your money with the lowest compound edge (press all the way on the four and ten at LEAST until you get to max bet) is the way to go.

I've told this to at least one player who later won (and later gave back) $40,000 at the Silverton. You don't get into the tens of thousands of dollars flat betting minimum bets.

Quote: ahiromu

To OP: $25 buy on the 5 or 9 is stupid. I hate to be so blunt, but you're getting screwed if you don't buy for an even number (same with buying the 6,8 outside of a multiple of 5). $25 pays $37.5, rounded DOWN to $37, $1 vig pays $36 total; $24 pays $36, no rounding, $1 vig pays $35 total. In short, you are betting $1 less to win $1 less (which is a great deal for a bet that pays more than 1:1). Buy for $28, $24, or $20 depending on where they make the cutoff. I get the house edge of a $28 buy bet on the 5 or 9 at 1.42% ($29 buy on 4/10 to pay $57 is 1.0%). This is an acceptable range if you're not going to be an anal retentive pass + come only player (I can't stand that strategy).

Buying the 5 or 9 for an uneven number is just as silly as taking odds on a point of 5 or 9 for an uneven number (I figured using "odds" in both of its forms in the same sentence would have been confusing).

I am aware of the small loss in rounding, but I still thank you for taking the time to point it out and provide a good explanation.

My ideology on the $25 bet stems from recently switching to Place bets from Pass/Come bets with full 3-4-5x odds. Instead of betting $5 on the Pass Line or Come backed up with $20 odds on the 5 & 9 to win $5 + $30, I make a $25 Place bet on the 5 & 9 and win $35. I did the math and found the same $25 as a Buy on the 5 & 9 would win $36.

I bet $150 across all 6 numbers: $20 Buy on 4 & 10; $25 Place on 5 & 9; $30 Place on 6 & 8. I'm still working out whether to Buy the 4 & 10 for $18 and whether to Buy the 5 & 9 for either $24 or $26. If the casino will allow it, I could spread $144 with $18 & $24 Buys and get a $35 payout on all numbers. I can't remember now whether or not I have ever made an $18 Buy on 4 & 10 in a live game, but my experiences vary, even at the same casino. On my last visit to Excalibur, the dealer wouldn't let me Buy the 4 & 10 for less than $20. I did Buy the 5 & 9 for $24 (getting $2 back from my $150), but then the floor/boxman walked up and asked if the $1 vig was taken up front for the 5 & 9. My previous visit, I made a $25 Buy on 5 & 9 and was paid $36. I'm guessing that a Buy bet on 5 & 9 happens so infrequently that the boys may not always remember the house rule.