Buying a 4 or 10

I know I have to bet at least the table minimum, but when my Place or Buy bets are above the minimum do I have to bet in increments of $5 on the 4 or 10?

For example: is there any reason that I can NOT make a bet to Buy either the 4 or 10 for $24 and give the dealer a $25 chip (assuming that they require the vig prior to placing the bet, not just if the bet wins). I would win $48, and if I then take the bet down I would have $3 more than if I made a Place bet of $25.

I realize I could make a $25 Buy and give the dealer $26 and get a $50 payout ($1 dollar more invested than in my example, to get $2 more payout), but I have now also risked $1 more in case the number is not rolled.

I like using $5, $25 and $100 chips (I also don't like copper pennys). I usually go right to $30 on the 6 or 8 and don't use $1 chips.

It depends on how they round. Let's say $30-55 requires a $2 vig whereas $25 requires only $1. If you were to press by $5 instead of $25-30 you'd be giving up a lot of EV ($30 with a $2 vig is worse than $50 with a $2 vig). However, this increases your variance; I tend to wait for a hit or two at $25 before I start pressing in increments of $25-50.

You can do whatever the hell you want with place bets.

Is there any reason why you can't go to a casino that takes vig on win only?

I don't see why you can't buy of the 4 or 10 for $24.

Then again, I don't know why you can't buy them for $10...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I don't see why you can't buy of the 4 or 10 for $24.

Then again, I don't know why you can't buy them for $10...

I have seen a $10 4 or 10 treated as a "buy"...but not very often...

Quote: NewToCraps

I know I have to bet at least the table minimum, but when my Place or Buy bets are above the minimum do I have to bet in increments of $5 on the 4 or 10?

I'm not an expert on Place or Buy bets, but my understanding is that you can bet anything you want. Since you have to pay 5% commission on Buy bets, you should bet in increments of $20 were the 5% is a whole number. However, even if you lose money on the rounding of the commission, you still come out ahead versus a Place bet.

I have been playing only Pass/Don't Pass and continuous Come/Don't Come with full odds but have just started practicing using Place and Buy bets instead of Come bets. For a $5 Pass bet with 3-4-5X odds (which pays $5+$30 on a win), the equivalent is an $18 Buy bet on 4 & 10, $25 Place bet on 5 & 9, $30 Place bet on 6 & 8. Each number will win $35. You're putting $146 on the table and hoping the shooter rolls at least four numbers (winning $140.)

For simplicity in the free practice games, I've been making a $20 Buy on the 4 & 10, which pays $39. I'm not losing 10 cents on the rounding but I am risking an additional $2 on each Buy bet. The reality is that you'll have to deal with $1 chips either when making the bet or when being paid for a win. You may as well bet as much as you are comfortable betting/losing.

The Wizard made a video that explains Place and Buy bets as well as betting increments versus rounding.

Quote: DeMango

Is there any reason why you can't go to a casino that takes vig on win only?

there are --or were, at least as of last spring-- at least 4 casinos in the country (3 of them in the albuquerque area and there may be more) that offer a FREE buy on the 4 & 10...

i have been asked a few times whether this is also the case that the lay bet on these is also free---a very good question and one that, not being a lay bettor much myself, i kept forgetting to ask but plan to do so later this week when i plan to go to the turtle creek casino in michigan...they have had this bet for over ten years and (unlike the other places) it is actually prominently marked "FREE BUY" on the 4 & 10 boxes on the layout...

the Tough Craps player obviously will make ONLY these free bets when playing at these places...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

NewToCraps


I go to the table and bet more on myself than others because I know what I
am looking for in my sets and throw. However having said that, I find one of the
best bets for new or low buy in players is a $5 bet on the 4 or 10 depending on which
has been hitting more or both.

I place a $5 bet on say the 4 and when it hits I toss out $1 and say take it to $15.
If the 4 hits again I take it back to $5. I get paid $27 from the hit and $10 back from
the bet for a total of $37 for my original outlay of $6 and no vig is paid, and I still
have $5 working, or I take it all down and place the $42 on my rack. You place an 8
for $12 and hit it twice you only have a profit of $16 if you leave the bet up or
$28 if you pull it down, and this is with a $12 risk before a hit.

I understand many others buy the 4 or 10 for $25 or both and go for the large win. But for
many the chance to get back $37 for a $6 bet or $42 if you take the best all off is
a pretty good return for little risk. There are many nights where that small bet can make the
difference between a winning or losing night.


dicesetter

each casino has their own rule as to whether allows these type of bets......mine you have to buy in increments of 5

Quote: betwthelines

i have been asked a few times whether this is also the case that the lay bet on these is also free---a very good question and one that, not being a lay bettor much myself, i kept forgetting to ask but plan to do so later this week when i plan to go to the turtle creek casino in michigan...they have had this bet for over ten years and (unlike the other places) it is actually prominently marked "FREE BUY" on the 4 & 10 boxes on the layout...p

No free lay at Turtle Creek last time I was there. I asked. This was at Leelenau Sands, their sister property.

Vig up front:

Jerry's Nugget
Stratosphere
Joker's Wild
Wynn (just kidding, but really Wynn? Double odds, you might as well get the vig up front now too)

Vig on the win:

Almost everywhere else (including Harrah's/Caesar's properties)

Automatic buy: (it costs only $1 to get paid anything from $9 to $49)

Silverton
Stations properties

Buy starts at $5, but you have to ask (not automatic) and they use $0.25 pieces for change when they pay you $9.75

California Casino
Main Street Station
Fremont Casino

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For Clark County, that's pretty much what you got for differences on buy bet costs. And of course downtown with quarters is the smart way to play if you don't have a bankroll and want to buy the four and ten.

Pragmatic issues to be aware of

At the places that use $0.25 pieces, generally speaking ONLY NERDS LIKE THOSE FROM THIS FORUM play this way. Dealers will be annoyed, and you should expect it and also know that they expect you are a cheap ass nerd who won't tip. BE NICE TO THE DEALERS AND OTHER PLAYERS if you want these quarters to stay around!

Dealers don't always know their own damn policies on these things. Don't be a jerk when asking about details of any rule of the game. Be nice.

It was my understanding that Jokers Wild was the last casino to have quarters on the craps table. And they got rid of them a couple years ago.

I'll have to check those downtown places you mention when I'm in town for G2E....

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'll have to check those downtown places you mention when I'm in town for G2E....

Quote: AHigh

At the places that use $0.25 pieces, generally speaking ONLY NERDS LIKE THOSE FROM THIS FORUM play this way.

^_^

Nerd convention at the craps table at the California Club during G2E?

Quote: teddys

Nerd convention at the craps table at the California Club during G2E?

I take offense!

But, I'm in. Sometime Friday perhaps? (I'm staying on the strip for G2E, then downtown Thursday and Friday night.)

Those quarter chips are used for THREE things and THREE THINGS ONLY.

(1) Pay a $5 buy on the four or ten $9.75 or toss them a $0.25 to receive two nickels.
(2) Tipping dealers (EG: $0.25 anywhere you want for the dealers)
(3) Paying the vig (up front) on lay bets

#3 is PROBABLY the best use for the quarters.

The minimums are always either $5 or $3 at these casinos.

What I advise you NOT try to do:

* Make any bet with them (and I mean NONE for yourself) -- don't even try to stack it on top of dollar chips or five chips. Not a good idea to even start the conversation

* Point out that these things sell for $3.50 each on E-bay -- I made this mistake and that's why I believe the quarters got taken off the joker's wild table -- a greedy player wanted to make $60 bucks or whatever it was to unload the quarters (all of them) on the internet

* Walk away with more than 3 in your pocket

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In SUMMARY do not spoil it for other players who want to fiddle with these chips or they won't last!

Quote: teddys

No free lay at Turtle Creek last time I was there. I asked. This was at Leelenau Sands, their sister property.

thanks, i will be at turtle creek tomorrow buying the 4 & 10!...you have provided the answer to the lay question here and it is the answer that i sort of thought it would be, but i will make a report about the lay on some other boards where i have been asked that question...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

Quote: Ahigh

Those quarter chips are used for THREE things and THREE THINGS ONLY.

(1) Pay a $5 buy on the four or ten $9.75 or toss them a $0.25 to receive two nickels.
(2) Tipping dealers (EG: $0.25 anywhere you want for the dealers)
(3) Paying the vig (up front) on lay bets

The old Palace in Biloxi used to use quarter chips back in the day. I can't remember what their "rules" were about them. I think it was a $1 table back then (15+ years ago). So, the 25c chips were used for many odd payouts.

More recently, I have played at $3 tables that had 50c pieces so that they could pay out $3.50 for a winning $3 6/8 place bet.

AHigh, I assume from your post that the places you mentioned with 25c chips will not use them to make a proper payout on such a bet?

Quote: Joeman

More recently, I have played at $3 tables that had 50c pieces so that they could pay out $3.50 for a winning $3 6/8 place bet.

The El Cortez does that. It's a $3 table so that's the only reason or use for the half dollars. They will not use them to pay $10.50 for a $9 6/8.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The El Cortez does that. It's a $3 table so that's the only reason or use for the half dollars. They will not use them to pay $10.50 for a $9 6/8.

I can verify that this is correct. And in general any place that has small chips has limited use for them. Joker's Wild was the last of its kind and they are gone.

El Cortez ONLY uses the $0.50 pieces for paying $3.50 on the six/eight.

* Can't use for VIGs on LAYS
* Can't get paid $9.50 for a $5 buy
* Can't lay the four for $20 for $0.50 vig up front
* Can't get paid $7.50 for $5.00 odds on the five or nine

All of these places share the same thing: it's a come-on for cheap gamblers to come to the table, but just really limited in how they are used and the expectation is that NOBODY on the table is even going to be taking advantage of this crap any time there is more than one player on the table (IE: shame on you for penny pinching! Tip MORE stop worry bet big!)

Also, if you're going into Fremont and El Cortez to save that money, WHAT ARE YOU PLANNING TO DO WITH THE SAVED MONEY? For me, it would be pay for the extra gas to go downtown! And the last time I went downtown, I had to deal with too many children pretending that they know how to be an adult. It can be fun except when they are drunk and stupid and vomiting and what-not.

I think a lot of gamblers penny pinching the edge would be better off playing at $25 tables with no odds and just $25 on the pass line.