Trusting Accuracy of Pay Outs
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July 7th, 2015 at 4:35:04 PM
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I was playing at a ten dollar table last night. Im not a baller and like to stretch my $200 dollar nightly bankroll. Im also OCD about my money (like it all facing the same way, like to count and recount). But anyway I normally just do between 1x and 2x odds depending on the point. So I get a lot white chips back on my winners. I like to make sure the pay outs are right and count my chips which leads to me getting yelled at a lot by the box man for late bets and having my hands in the tub. How much do you guys trust the dealers or have you just gotten better at determining accuracy over time? Its not as easy as blackjack haha.
July 7th, 2015 at 5:02:22 PM
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Quote: hailtotheskinsI was playing at a ten dollar table last night. Im not a baller and like to stretch my $200 dollar nightly bankroll. Im also OCD about my money (like it all facing the same way, like to count and recount). But anyway I normally just do between 1x and 2x odds depending on the point. So I get a lot white chips back on my winners. I like to make sure the pay outs are right and count my chips which leads to me getting yelled at a lot by the box man for late bets and having my hands in the tub. How much do you guys trust the dealers or have you just gotten better at determining accuracy over time? Its not as easy as blackjack haha.
I'm not sure I understand what is so tough about knowing the payouts, especially it you are talking $10 and $20 odds bets. I would never go so far as to say just trust the dealers on payouts. They make mistakes, especially if it's busy and people are determined to make all kinds of center bets as they tend to get in a hurry to make the regular payouts and then get to the center bets.
Regardless of how you do it, you need to find a way to not slow the game down and not late bet too much. You also really need to keep your hands out of the way. If I'm shooting I really don't care as I am not superstitious in the least, but the majority of players are and as an etiquette you really need to keep your hand out once the dice move.
July 7th, 2015 at 5:23:12 PM
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Just be proactive about your bets. Before it hits know what your pay out should be. It then only takes a couple of seconds to count your chips and see it your pay is correct. Likewise decide ahead of time what your next bet is going to be under the various throw scenerios then you can get it down right away.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
July 7th, 2015 at 6:18:07 PM
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yes, mad moneyQuote: hailtotheskinsSo I get a lot white chips back on my winners.
dealers told me to do this as when i was new to craps i asked way too many of the same questions over and over againQuote: hailtotheskinsHow much do you guys trust the dealers or have you just gotten better at determining accuracy over time?
i actually gave away my cheat sheet
here is what mine looked like
w = with
hope it helps some
does fit on a business card
I even had mine laminated
have fun while winning and counting your bank
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
July 7th, 2015 at 7:10:02 PM
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thank ya sally
July 7th, 2015 at 9:16:57 PM
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After you play enough, you can count chips with your peripheral vision and know your payouts like multiplication tables (I mean that's all they really are, right?). I can usually spot a mispay by the time the chips arrive in my rack (learn to count them as you pick them up), as you implied, it comes with experience. As long as you aren't making a lot of quick movement to your pockets, they should correct a small mispay without hesitation... especially if you can show them it was an obvious mistake (like giving you an extra white instead of a red).
It isn't "game over" if you bring the chips into the rack and then notice there was a mistake, I'd say 80% of my mispay corrections have been when my chips are within "swapping distance" of other chips in my rack. Just look out for new dealers, you'll be able to spot them from a mile away, and then you know to pay extra attention.
It isn't "game over" if you bring the chips into the rack and then notice there was a mistake, I'd say 80% of my mispay corrections have been when my chips are within "swapping distance" of other chips in my rack. Just look out for new dealers, you'll be able to spot them from a mile away, and then you know to pay extra attention.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
July 7th, 2015 at 11:23:16 PM
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Like ahiromu said, the thing to do is get good at spotting the pay procedure and determining whether it's correct or not. $10 line + $20 on point of 5 winner = one of two things:
a) Dealer sizes into stack of 4 red odds with 4 red, then drops 2 more, then sizes into 2 red line bet
b) Dealer delivers two stacks of 3 red to the odds bet and then sizes into line bet.
Those are basically the only two ways I've ever seen a dealer pay that particular combination of chips, so if that doesn't happen, double check things. I recently had a $10 line with $30 odds as $5+$25 on a 4 win and the dealer sized into my odds twice with his stack of red (payout of $20 instead of $60). He didn't see the green and thought it was two reds. I just spread out my odds bet and pointed at it (without saying anything) - he saw the mistake, pulled back the $20 odds and payed me correctly 2 green/2 red plus the line bet. No worries. Just make sure you're only using one hand to reach for the chips, otherwise it may look like you're past-posting.
In other words, sometimes it's better to count the chips than count the dollars they're worth all together.
a) Dealer sizes into stack of 4 red odds with 4 red, then drops 2 more, then sizes into 2 red line bet
b) Dealer delivers two stacks of 3 red to the odds bet and then sizes into line bet.
Those are basically the only two ways I've ever seen a dealer pay that particular combination of chips, so if that doesn't happen, double check things. I recently had a $10 line with $30 odds as $5+$25 on a 4 win and the dealer sized into my odds twice with his stack of red (payout of $20 instead of $60). He didn't see the green and thought it was two reds. I just spread out my odds bet and pointed at it (without saying anything) - he saw the mistake, pulled back the $20 odds and payed me correctly 2 green/2 red plus the line bet. No worries. Just make sure you're only using one hand to reach for the chips, otherwise it may look like you're past-posting.
In other words, sometimes it's better to count the chips than count the dollars they're worth all together.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
July 8th, 2015 at 5:53:32 AM
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If you are betting normal increments, you'll only get whites on the 6&8. Both odds & place.
(Or are you *placing* the 5&9 or 4&10? In which case, that runs counter to your goal of making your money last a long time).
For me the only exception to that is if I'm feeling cheap I'll round my 5/9 odds to an even number such as 6 or 16 instead of doing the full 10 or 20. 6 = 9 payout and 16 = 24 payout.
It also help to know in your head what you are expecting the minute you place your bet, and/or while he is making his rounds of other payoffs. If you know what to expect then you can just match it up.
(Or are you *placing* the 5&9 or 4&10? In which case, that runs counter to your goal of making your money last a long time).
For me the only exception to that is if I'm feeling cheap I'll round my 5/9 odds to an even number such as 6 or 16 instead of doing the full 10 or 20. 6 = 9 payout and 16 = 24 payout.
It also help to know in your head what you are expecting the minute you place your bet, and/or while he is making his rounds of other payoffs. If you know what to expect then you can just match it up.
July 17th, 2015 at 11:28:48 AM
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Quote: hailtotheskinsI was playing at a ten dollar table last night. Im not a baller and like to stretch my $200 dollar nightly bankroll. Im also OCD about my money (like it all facing the same way, like to count and recount). But anyway I normally just do between 1x and 2x odds depending on the point. So I get a lot white chips back on my winners. I like to make sure the pay outs are right and count my chips which leads to me getting yelled at a lot by the box man for late bets and having my hands in the tub. How much do you guys trust the dealers or have you just gotten better at determining accuracy over time? Its not as easy as blackjack haha.
I'd learn the payout for each numbers first, and the place bet. That's a good start.
Pass line=always even money
Odds behind your pass line on 4 & 10 = 2 to 1 (double)
for example
- $10 flat $10 odds will get you $30 total
- $10 flat $50 odds will get you $110 total
- $10 flat $100 odds will get you $210 total
Odds behind your pass line on 5 & 9 = 3 to 2 (blackjack pay out). Make sure you always have something even for your odds (10,12,14,16,18,20,30,40,50,80...)
- $10 flat $10 odds will get you $25 total
- $10 flat $20 odds will get you $40 total
- $10 flat $100 odds will get you $160 total
Odds behind your pass line on 6 & 8 = 6 to 5 so every red will get a red and a white. every green ($25) will get a green and a red
- $10 flat $10 odds will get you $22 total
- $10 flat $35 odds will get you $52 total
- $10 flat $50 odds will get you $70 total
Props bet.
Horn bet let's say 4 dollars
if low side hit (15 to 1), then just 3x your bet = $12
if high side hit (30 to 1), then just 7x your bet - 1/4=27
this key works for all horn bet for any amount.
C&E= if craps hit it's 3x your bet, if it's Yo hit then it's 7x your bet for any amount this key will work.
Good luck on the Dice table!
July 17th, 2015 at 11:40:17 AM
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Thanks guys. Yea I understand all the payouts perfectly, it all just moves so fast and im OCD about money, so by the time I make sure its all good I'm often getting yelled at by the box man for late betting/having my hands in the tub. Im one of those guys haha, makes me feel like a child to be reprimanded like that, effin p*** me off actually. And yea me being a cheapo and taking 16 dollars odds on the 5 and 9 is part of the problem. But if I want to put down a new come bet, place odds on my last come bet, maybe lay a 4, maybe even a horn bet if im feeling it I fall behind and pretty much have to trust what the dealer gives me. Maybe I'm just a little bit on the derpy side. I am playing craps and a redskins fan to boot after all
July 17th, 2015 at 11:48:09 AM
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watch the dealers before you start making a bet, if you see they're comfortable booking the bet and cutting out checks smoothly and fast. Then you can probably tell they're good.
but if their hands suck, they can't drop cut. they fumble checks around. they got nervous when their side is crowded and they start panicking. Those are usually signs that they're weak dealers. Just watch their body language and you'll see.
but if their hands suck, they can't drop cut. they fumble checks around. they got nervous when their side is crowded and they start panicking. Those are usually signs that they're weak dealers. Just watch their body language and you'll see.
July 17th, 2015 at 11:53:25 AM
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yea I had one do something cool where he like slid my line payment so it knocked my old one towards me and the payment took the place on the line. it was pretty cool. it like 90% worked haha. he was good
July 17th, 2015 at 12:15:14 PM
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I don't think I have EVER played at a craps game where at least one mistake was not made on a payout on the table.
It's up to you to protect yourself because the box man sure won't.
Whenever you make a bet, you need to KNOW exactly how much the payoff should be, so you can verify it while it's on the felt. If you pick it up, it's already too late because then the dealer can start to claim he paid you right.
If you're new to craps, maybe you should always make the same line bet and then always play 3-4-5 odds if available. This will mean that all your payoffs should be the same amount no matter what number hits.
For example, if you bet $10 with 3-4-5 odds, you always should get $10+$60 for a win. Easy to verify.
It's up to you to protect yourself because the box man sure won't.
Whenever you make a bet, you need to KNOW exactly how much the payoff should be, so you can verify it while it's on the felt. If you pick it up, it's already too late because then the dealer can start to claim he paid you right.
If you're new to craps, maybe you should always make the same line bet and then always play 3-4-5 odds if available. This will mean that all your payoffs should be the same amount no matter what number hits.
For example, if you bet $10 with 3-4-5 odds, you always should get $10+$60 for a win. Easy to verify.
July 17th, 2015 at 12:37:57 PM
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Know how much you bet for every bet you have out there. To do that, know the relationship between where you stand and where your bets sit in each box.
Don't have more than one bet on each number. IE, avoid the crap in the middle.
As soon as the dice land, double check your bets, and do your own math.
Know how much it should be before reaching to take it.
Don't have more than one bet on each number. IE, avoid the crap in the middle.
As soon as the dice land, double check your bets, and do your own math.
Know how much it should be before reaching to take it.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 17th, 2015 at 12:55:20 PM
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yeah, I've already decided when I go next week I'm going to do 1.5-2-2.5 odds so my payout is always 40. keep it simple stupid
July 17th, 2015 at 1:00:24 PM
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I'm also going to limit myself to 30 dollars for prop bets and stop with the horn high crap, that was killing me last time. I'm plotting on throwing a 5 out with every come out roll for a dollar on each hard way and maybe a dollar on midnight or go 2 dollars on the 6 or something. I know the middle of the table is stupid but it adds some fun and I'm expecting to lose what I bring anyway.
July 17th, 2015 at 6:22:23 PM
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Quote: hailtotheskinsI'm also going to limit myself to 30 dollars for prop bets and stop with the horn high crap, that was killing me last time. I'm plotting on throwing a 5 out with every come out roll for a dollar on each hard way and maybe a dollar on midnight or go 2 dollars on the 6 or something. I know the middle of the table is stupid but it adds some fun and I'm expecting to lose what I bring anyway.
Skins,
Yes you should always know how much you should be paid. If you don't then you deserve what you get. It's not that hard to make bets that are easy to figure out. Craps is a fast game and nobody likes a slow player that holds up the game, especially the boss.
15% of you buy in dedicated to bets in the middle? Hey man that's the crack cocaine of craps! You can get HOOKED! Just say NO! Your money will last longer if you don't bet that junk.
July 17th, 2015 at 8:23:46 PM
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Quote: Wingnut... bets in the middle? Hey man that's the crack cocaine of craps! You can get HOOKED! Just say NO! Your money will last longer if you don't bet that junk.
The middle is the "Crack Cocaine of Craps." Very accurate, Gotta remember that.
I heard one stickman, while hustling those bets, call it, "The Crap in the Middle."
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 2nd, 2015 at 9:53:13 PM
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At a well run table, the stickman will be eyeballin' one base dealers payouts while the boxman checks out the other. Accidental errors DO get through occaisionally, and this is where the player needs to have a grasp of the pay out protocol, the order the dealers use to hand out winning bets, and the amount the bet is expected to pay out. A good % of the pay offs are routine, the crew should have these down by rote...but an odd, difficult one shows regularly, generally connected to the prop bets, where the "boys" have to do some "ciphering'" and this is usually a trouble area. Everyone should realize that to have an effective betting strategy doesn't require knowledge of every single bet available. Use a simple, easy playing system, learn the payoffs that effect you, and you should be go to go.
August 2nd, 2015 at 10:06:15 PM
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Sounds like the problem is your OCD. Try to relax and don't have everything neat and tidy.
August 8th, 2015 at 4:53:28 PM
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As others have mentioned, craps is a fast game, and it's your responsibility to keep track of your money. Depending on the action, and the volume of the action, the base dealer could easily get preoccupied by other bets. There are some really great craps dealers and I'd like to think even the lesser experienced would be able to handle the size of bet(s) I assume you to make on a $200 bank roll. But for perspective, I've been dealing the game for a handful of months, and I semi-regularly commit procedure and payout errors.
Box people generally fall into two groups: laid back and cool as hell, or a jumpy asshole. Either way, booking late bets and having your hands in the tub isn't only annoying for the dealers and box; other players usually don't like their action slowed when the dice are hot, and no on one wants a 7 out induced by a set of hands, regardless if he/she is superstitious.
Box people generally fall into two groups: laid back and cool as hell, or a jumpy asshole. Either way, booking late bets and having your hands in the tub isn't only annoying for the dealers and box; other players usually don't like their action slowed when the dice are hot, and no on one wants a 7 out induced by a set of hands, regardless if he/she is superstitious.
August 8th, 2015 at 9:07:02 PM
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I didn't read this whole thread, but I know in roulette it can get quite complicated when you bet a 2-spot, four-spot, street and a number straight up all at the same time.
August 9th, 2015 at 6:10:08 AM
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One more thing that can help, is to know the relationship of where you stand, compared to where your chips are placed on the various boxes.
That's an important lesson that is often overlooked in those free craps lessons that the casinos give.
That's an important lesson that is often overlooked in those free craps lessons that the casinos give.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 9th, 2015 at 6:24:51 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearOne more thing that can help, is to know the relationship of where you stand, compared to where your chips are placed on the various boxes.
That's an important lesson that is often overlooked in those free craps lessons that the casinos give.
Great advice...you must also follow the movement when new players arrive and a table fills up. Your "spot" in the betting box can change.
August 22nd, 2015 at 9:49:38 PM
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Funny (not really) story bout the last time I played a month ago. I actually hit the "turn 1 dollar into a 1000" hit the hard 6 3 times parlay. But I was playing scared and after I hit the second one I pulled 90 back and kept ten up. Then it hit again, so I won 100 twice basically but damn, thatll probably never happen again in my life
November 2nd, 2015 at 8:11:32 AM
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While I'm sure that on a VERY rare occasion, a player will be mis-payed on purpose, ( Man, you've REALLY got to have the crew pissed off for them to overtly cheat a player), the overwhelming number of pay off errors are simply innocent mistakes. And it doesn't matter the experience, or competence involved...craps is a very complex, fast moving game and EVERY dealer makes a few every shift....guaranteed. It's the ability to spot game errors and and reconcile them quickly that matters most. If a dealer isn't making ANY mistakes occasionally, they probably aren't doing any work . (Or not much).
November 16th, 2015 at 11:09:19 AM
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i very much agree that in the vast, vast, vast majority of play a dealer would not intentionally cheat a player...however i did experience at a place that shall go unnamed tip hustling that was so blatant and offensive that i stopped tipping altogether...more than a few times then some on the crew tried to short pay me on some bets...of course it is difficult to "call them out" that this was intentional since "mistakes happen" and blah blah blah...but there is no doubt in my mind that it was intentional...as far as i know, i was never short payed because i was watching very closely after the first time it happened...but still...it was exceedingly annoying & something that i shouldn't need to dedicate more than the usual mental energy to...
...now i know that many of you would say that i should have walked away or brought it to the attention of the suits, a very tricky issue to raise with them, given the legitimate need to have their dealers' backs and i can't disagree...most of you WOULD have walked away probably...but i wanted to play and i was winning (further ticking them off!)...next time i am there (probably wont be until winter 2016-17) i will raise the issue with the suits, even the casino GM or the highest authority on the floor, should it happen again...but we'll see...it might be a totally different welt...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
...now i know that many of you would say that i should have walked away or brought it to the attention of the suits, a very tricky issue to raise with them, given the legitimate need to have their dealers' backs and i can't disagree...most of you WOULD have walked away probably...but i wanted to play and i was winning (further ticking them off!)...next time i am there (probably wont be until winter 2016-17) i will raise the issue with the suits, even the casino GM or the highest authority on the floor, should it happen again...but we'll see...it might be a totally different welt...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
"You can't EXPECT to win. But you CAN play Tough"...tom p, 1974
November 23rd, 2015 at 4:38:52 AM
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betweenthelines, are you saying that the dealers where you were playing started short-paying you regularly because you chose not to toke? I believe you 100%, but the situation you describe is beyond the pale. If you're positive, I'd go to the G.M., or Games Boss and report your suspicions...if a player decides to toke or not that is their business...you still deserve good service.
November 23rd, 2015 at 5:56:56 PM
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Quote: rudeboy99betweenthelines, are you saying that the dealers where you were playing started short-paying you regularly because you chose not to toke? I believe you 100%, but the situation you describe is beyond the pale. If you're positive, I'd go to the G.M., or Games Boss and report your suspicions...if a player decides to toke or not that is their business...you still deserve good service.
yes, that is exactly what i am saying and, further, going beyond merely inferring it: one of the more obnoxious dealers virtually ADMITTED that it was the case: if you want good service you better tip...i did not interpret it at the time as "if you want HONEST service, you better tip", but that is exactly what it ended up to be...
yes, it is beyond the pale, utterly reprehensible and hopefully illegal...you are right: next time i will be more forceful, to be sure...i am on my way to Oz this winter but next winter expect to get back to that place, where ---at least it was at that time---it is one of the better craps deals in the country, especially for the Tough Craps player...
i am far from the last of the big tippers, but i do normally tip congruent with the level of service, which in fairness is almost always at least acceptable but in this disgraceful instance, yes, i did shut down the tipping completely...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
"You can't EXPECT to win. But you CAN play Tough"...tom p, 1974
November 23rd, 2015 at 7:28:42 PM
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Wow! Well, you have my sympathy, ( for what that's worth)...Do you have to travel quite a ways to get to the nearest casino? If not, I'd look for a new spot to hang my hat. These boys don't sound professional enough to f**k with.
November 23rd, 2015 at 9:07:26 PM
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Quote: rudeboy99Wow! Well, you have my sympathy, ( for what that's worth)...Do you have to travel quite a ways to get to the nearest casino? If not, I'd look for a new spot to hang my hat. These boys don't sound professional enough to f**k with.
can't argue with that...
no. there's a local joint 1 hour 3 minutes and 12 seconds away...lol...where i spend too much time (tho lately not so much)...then there are other places 4 to 12 hours away that i get to occasionally but in the winter i head south...
i am a minnesota boy who used to love winters...in my old age tho, not so much...in fact i can no longer even tolerate them much...so unlike many of my other snowbird friends rather than get a place in warmer climes or even get an RV, i decided upon a slightly different tact... i have always loved car trips so just high tail it in my high gas mileage vehicle for the southern US or mexico...this is usually til not after the first of the year---with a shorter december excursion to vegas to further cut into tundra time---where it is largely BOTH a florida and aridzona trek to spring ball with stop-offs at many casinos and many other places wherever i can leach roofs and baths from aforementioned snowbird friends!
this winter, though still headed for vegas next month, will be substantially different in that from jan-april i will be circumautomotivigating the entire continent of Oz, where of course it is high summer...there i will be meeting up with a member onna nother forum that you are familiar with, rudeboy, and we plan to meet up for a couple of sessions at the rail in his home town (melbourne) at one of the few bank craps tables on the monster island
the place where i was treated so badly is in the southwest but not vegas...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
"You can't EXPECT to win. But you CAN play Tough"...tom p, 1974
