Crazy high roller craps move.
Thread Rating:
It's bad enough when I see somebody say "no action" when a 6 rolls on the don't come for $10 but why would you take a $4,000 don't bet down especially after you paid almost $500 to survive the come out roll?
I don't see alot of darkside players, but when I do, taking down a don't pass line bets when the point is 6 or 8 is not that uncommon.
Quote: Ayecarumbataking down a don't pass line bets when the point is 6 or 8 is not that uncommon.
I saw someone do this at Cherokee.
to me it is the ultimate in following superstition/hunch and not caring about the math; I have to believe most who do it know that the math is against making the move, but are snakebit by the 6 and 8 getting rolled so much.
Quote: odiousgambitI saw someone do this at Cherokee.
to me it is the ultimate in following superstition/hunch and not caring about the math; I have to believe most who do it know that the math is against making the move, but are snakebit by the 6 and 8 getting rolled so much.
While it makes me cringe, it is their money to play the way they want. As long as they are not telling me how to bet, I'm happy to let them be. Mathwise, it's five ways to lose vs. six ways to win. I can understand the sweat.
a rare breedQuote: guitarmandpI saw this player shoot from the don't.
figuresQuote: guitarmandpHe
what color shoes was he wearing as this really matters in actual playing to winQuote: guitarmandphad a $4,000 don't pass bet and he hopped the 7's for $396 and had a $90 yo to hedge the come out roll.
you should have asked himQuote: guitarmandpAnyways point is 6 and I guess he didn't feel comfortable shooting from the donts with the point being 6
why so shy?
why is itQuote: guitarmandpIt's bad enough when I see somebody say "no action"
bad enough
when someone plays a certain way with their money?
why you care?
bad vibes??
explain, please???
ROAR!
Sally
hahaQuote: AyecarumbaBetting the "Don't" demonstrates a more sophisticated level of play than average.
say it isnt so
and shooting from the dont is even more sophisticated than being sophisticated?
and by average
you are really trying to say betting the right way
and not the wrong way
well,
as an ex dont pass player (dpass)
I know I could lower my $25 dpass bet after a point of 8 was established
at times I lowered it down to $10, but was told I could not increase it back up to what it was if I changed my mind (as I did often)
but could lay the odds instead (bet more to win less - lay)
that at first was confusing until the light switch went up and I got it.
dpass can also be taken down but can not be put back up until the next come out roll too
I also understand you can not move a dcome bet from one number to another as you can with a Lay bet or a place bet
there is a sweet level of sophisticated play on the "Don't"
Sally
Quote: AyecarumbaBetting the "Don't" demonstrates a more sophisticated level of play than average...
Using this story alone as an example, I disagree. A lot of people whom are betting the don't, don't understand how it works much past "I've been losing on the pass all night, let me try this other way. I win on the 7 out now, right???"
Taking "no action" or pulling your don't pass bet on any number (let alone 6 or 8) shows a complete misunderstanding of the mathematics behind the game. It is quite possibly one of the dumbest decisions you could make when playing the don'ts. You literally take your bet which is a favorite, remove it, and subject your money to the most likely losing outcome again (when taking "no action").
Quote: RomesUsing this story alone as an example, I disagree. A lot of people whom are betting the don't, don't understand how it works much past "I've been losing on the pass all night, let me try this other way. I win on the 7 out now, right???"
Taking "no action" or pulling your don't pass bet on any number (let alone 6 or 8) shows a complete misunderstanding of the mathematics behind the game. It is quite possibly one of the dumbest decisions you could make when playing the don'ts. You literally take your bet which is a favorite, remove it, and subject your money to the most likely losing outcome again (when taking "no action").
If you use this story alone as an example, you would have to agree that this player was one of those that "understand(s) how it works". Now, the actions may be questionable from the math side, but he knew enough about the game to know that he was allowed to take down a Don't Pass bet, place the point, and back it with odds. This was not a newbie. I would call him more "sophisticated" than average (but not "wise", based on pulling down bets with a positive player edge).
I find most players who play the don't are doing so because they understand what they are doing. The "average" player will go with the crowd and bet with the shooter. The "average" Darksider knows that they are not making friends with their action. Whether they are committed to the math enough to consistently fight the variance is a different story. I wouldn't call him "dumb", I'd characterize it more as "scared".
Are you referring to taking down a "Don't Pass" line bet after the point is established?Quote: odiousgambitthe first time I encountered the idea of it, a dealer encouraged it. So I guess there could be players who learn it from the dealers and think it is a smart move.
Quote: AyecarumbaAre you referring to taking down a "Don't Pass" line bet after the point is established?
yes
dealer used the "want no action?" question as if, hey, everybody does that. Of course maybe she was used to just that.
Quote: AyecarumbaIf you use this story alone as an example, you would have to agree that this player was one of those that "understand(s) how it works". Now, the actions may be questionable from the math side, but he knew enough about the game to know that he was allowed to take down a Don't Pass bet, place the point, and back it with odds. This was not a newbie. I would call him more "sophisticated" than average (but not "wise", based on pulling down bets with a positive player edge).
I find most players who play the don't are doing so because they understand what they are doing. The "average" player will go with the crowd and bet with the shooter. The "average" Darksider knows that they are not making friends with their action. Whether they are committed to the math enough to consistently fight the variance is a different story. I wouldn't call him "dumb", I'd characterize it more as "scared".
While I feel you have a good point in there... I still consider what this player did to be a "dumb" move that shows he's worse than a 'newbie' whom would have let his don't pass ride. There's still yet a difference in knowing you "can" call no action, and that you never "want" to call no action. Comparing him to someone whom doesn't know how to play craps at all, sure you can call him sophisticated... but that's like saying someone who only knows how to check their e-mail is a sophisticated computer user over an infant that can't click the mouse... You can technically say it, but in no real life context does it really make sense to call that person a "sophisticated" computer user in any way. In the reality and standards of the game, and this forum, the guy made a total bonehead play taking his DP down.
Quote: odiousgambityes
dealer used the "want no action?" question as if, hey, everybody does that. Of course maybe she was used to just that.
This is in my craps career too... When I FIRST started playing, the first couple times I played from the don'ts the dealers (whom realized I was 'new' to the don'ts) tried to get me to take no action on 6's and 8's. I did the first time and second time ever, while I thought it over. Then I said "Isn't a 7 still more likely?" to which they usually replied "Well, yeah, but 6 and 8 are close!" Craps dealers are sharp people, usually... Anytime I hear one of them offer no action I immediately speak up to the player to let them know that it's a bad idea, and why. The dealers that promote that, in my opinion, are "house" jerks.
It's like selling a hardway I suppose, encouraging the players to make moves advantageous to the house. Too bad for the player who listens.Quote: odiousgambityes
dealer used the "want no action?" question as if, hey, everybody does that. Of course maybe she was used to just that.
Quote: RomesThe dealers that promote that, in my opinion, are "house" jerks.
Quote: AyecarumbaIt's like selling a hardway I suppose, encouraging the players to make moves advantageous to the house. Too bad for the player who listens.
I've mentioned it before and I'll say it again. There's a decent chance the dealers are instructed (read: ordered) by management to sell these options to players. A dealer peddling the side bets is not a reflection on the dealer. I'd almost guarantee that just about any dealer that said to a player "Don't bet the hardways" would find themselves in the shift office in two seconds flat.
Quote: DeucekiesI've mentioned it before and I'll say it again. There's a decent chance the dealers are instructed (read: ordered) by management to sell these options to players. A dealer peddling the side bets is not a reflection on the dealer. I'd almost guarantee that just about any dealer that said to a player "Don't bet the hardways" would find themselves in the shift office in two seconds flat.
Well I'd still find that hard to believe. Other than my first few times playing from the don'ts (where it looked like I didn't know what I was doing) I've never had a dealer ask me if I wanted "no action" on my DP or DC's (in dozens and dozens of casinos across the country)... I've had dealers offer me other "tips," but not taking "no action." So by your thoughts that would mean a LOT of dealers aren't following policy to offer me the no action.
Quote: RomesWell I'd still find that hard to believe. Other than my first few times playing from the don'ts (where it looked like I didn't know what I was doing) I've never had a dealer ask me if I wanted "no action" on my DP or DC's (in dozens and dozens of casinos across the country)... I've had dealers offer me other "tips," but not taking "no action." So by your thoughts that would mean a LOT of dealers aren't following policy to offer me the no action.
Offering no action is probably an extreme example. I'm speaking more to Ayecarumba's post about the hardways. My overall point is that if a dealer offered me an option like that, my first negative thought is going to be on the management, not that dealer. If that dealer winds up being the only one in that house to offer it, then you may be right.
Quote: PBguyYou can take down a DP bet at any time.
you can take down any bet except the pass once in action, and the come once it has traveled IIRC.
Quote: BeardgoatI feel like this must not be very common. I've played craps dozens of times and have never heard of either of those DP/DC bets being taken down or no action.
It's uncommon because the player is throwing away an advantage at that point. Once a point is established for your DP or your DC... Your bet becomes the favorite to win. The reason the house has an edge on the money is on the "come out roll" of either the DP or the DC, it loses to a 7 (which of course is the most likely outcome). After you 'survive' the come out roll, the 7 is the most likely number and you're getting paid 1-1 on your DP/DC bet. Thus, you're more than a 1-1 favorite and yet you're still getting paid 1-1... an advantageous situation. Pulling your bet (from any number) at this point is literally just saying "I don't want an advantage, no thanks."
It's not very common because most craps players know it's a total sucker play. In my experience dealers only offer it to newbie don't pass/come players whom don't know any better (i.e. in my eyes they're picking on the newbies and pretending to be their friend offering good advice when really they're just getting a bigger house edge on them).
You should NEVER take "no action" or pull down a DP/DC bet once its point has been established.
Anyway, most of the time dealers ask a player if they want "no action" is because that player has already been asking for no action. And moving the DC bet is the first thing they do (after the field). Oftentimes people act like idiots and say "no action" after dealer has moved the DC and dealer has to do more work because of it. I'm sure there are extreme cases where a dealer may be promoting it....but....
Quote: AussieIgnoring the fact that taking the dont bet down after the point is established is a dumb move in the first place, if you were so dead sure you wanted to pull it down why wouldn't you place the point and lock in a profit? In the original example place the point for $3690 and lock in $310 profit on the 7-out and $305 profit on the made point.
A sophisticated play! Too bad the player had already burned almost $500 hedging the come out roll. But still...
Based on people's experience, do places let you take odds from other people (or DC/DP) if they don't want it? I've only done it once and nobody seemed to notice or care, but I can't picture that being something they'd like to encourage. It's like filling in somebody's double-for-less.
This is the kind of player casinos send limos for and hosts crawl over each other trying to get to first.Quote: guitarmandpI saw this player shoot from the don't. He had a $4,000 don't pass bet and he hopped the 7's for $396 and had a $90 yo to hedge the come out roll. Anyways point is 6 and I guess he didn't feel comfortable shooting from the donts with the point being 6 so he took his $4,000 don't pass bet off and he replaced it with $100 on the passline and $10,000 odds. He 7'd out immediately.
Quote: BeardgoatThis is such a stupid question I can't even believe I am asking it, but I've never played from the don't pass line. So if I'm playing don't pass, and the point is 6 or 8 I can remove my bet? I know this is not possible on a pass line bet... But I assume the house allows it to be removed because there is a better chance of don't pass winning after the point is established?
Yes you can remove a darkside bet, and yes the house allows it because there is a better chance that the don't player will win after a point is established.
Quote: guitarmandpI saw this player shoot from the don't. He had a $4,000 don't pass bet and he hopped the 7's for $396 and had a $90 yo to hedge the come out roll. Anyways point is 6 and I guess he didn't feel comfortable shooting from the donts with the point being 6 so he took his $4,000 don't pass bet off and he replaced it with $100 on the passline and $10,000 odds. He 7'd out immediately.
It's bad enough when I see somebody say "no action" when a 6 rolls on the don't come for $10 but why would you take a $4,000 don't bet down especially after you paid almost $500 to survive the come out roll?
I play the don't 98% of the time. First, there are exceptions but most casinos have a table max of 5k-6k in odds. There are exceptions. So I bet 1000 on the don't and up to the 6k in odds. I don't care which number comes out 4,5,6, or 8! I will never take my bet down as the odds are now in my favor! When do you get a chance to have that? Unless you are counter at BJ. Superstitions, feelings, shooter is wearing a orange hat means nothing or even if it is a first time shooter. THE DICE DONT HAVE EYES OR EARS.. This guy taking down that bet just means to me he isn't really gambling he is trying to show off. Yes, to answer your question, he knows the rules but far from a knowledgeable/smart player. But we all gamble knowing we are playing a -EV game so any of us smart? I also think im missing something or just too tired this morning? I understand how he can take his money down from the don't and how he can then put 100 on the pass but how can he at the same time put 10k in odds? Or was it the next come out roll? that would make sense and I understand that bet and respect it. Again where can you bet 100-10,000?
Of course, invariably, the number gets rolled, and the dealer gives me a look as my bet goes into the working stack.
While there may be one or two jerk dealers telling players to not travel their bets, I think it is more the dealers really want to see the players win. And knowing that the 6 and 8 are almost coin flips, they think they are trying to help the player get a better number (4,5,9,10). But I suspect many of those same dealers don't really understand how big of an underdog the player is on the come out roll, and by teaching the player 'no action', they are significantly increasing the amount exposed to come out roll losses.
Once it is given that you have survived the come-out roll, your DP bet has a positive EV, right? Now if you lay the odds on that, which has EV of precisely 0, wouldn't that actually lower your combined edge? If so, why would you ever lay the odds on a DP bet? Unless it's to hedge against future come-out rolls?
Quote: DeucekiesSomeone help me understand something here since I don't play craps much.
Once it is given that you have survived the come-out roll, your DP bet has a positive EV, right? Now if you lay the odds on that, which has EV of precisely 0, wouldn't that actually lower your combined edge? If so, why would you ever lay the odds on a DP bet? Unless it's to hedge against future come-out rolls?
"Surviving" the come-out roll is a pre-cursor to having the opportunity to lay the odds on the DP. Since most players wager a small amount to get the opportunity, laying odds is a chance to increase the amount won in a positive EV situation. Yes, the combined edge is lower, but it is still positive. due to the initial line bet.
Quote: Ayecarumba"Surviving" the come-out roll is a pre-cursor to having the opportunity to lay the odds on the DP. Since most players wager a small amount to get the opportunity, laying odds is a chance to increase the amount won in a positive EV situation. Yes, the combined edge is lower, but it is still positive. due to the initial line bet.
Ok. Makes sense. Thanks.
the combined edge is lower but it is over a LARGER average betQuote: DeucekiesOnce it is given that you have survived the come-out roll, your DP bet has a positive EV, right? Now if you lay the odds on that, which has EV of precisely 0, wouldn't that actually lower your combined edge? If so, why would you ever lay the odds on a DP bet? Unless it's to hedge against future come-out rolls?
the combined EV remains the same
X + 0 = X
this has been mentioned countless times before and even the Wizard commented on this too
in an Ask the Wizard
Sally
Quote: Deucekieswhy would you ever lay the odds on a DP bet?
as for this part of it:
sometimes you run into players or dealers adamant about the idea you are diluting a good bet [a canard]
if you were able to put the bet darkside without penalty, you'd be diluting a +EV bet. Yes, you'd be better off having put the entire amount contemplated on the paying-even-money-when-more-probable-to-win number. But you can't put this kind of bet, and the entire amount is at normal risk. To make a portion at fair odds now lowers the overall HE [edits]
