Counting your rolls
How do you guys keep track?
Quote: mdsBacc card at the table
And no one challenges this? Not that they would have any reason to, as tracking rolls isn't going to help you figure out what the next roll would be, but as the Nevada Gaming Control Board made a specific list of where you can take notes (cards in baccarat, spins in roulette, and the "Faro board") and craps isn't on there, I thought that somebody might object.
Quote: ThatDonGuyAnd no one challenges this? Not that they would have any reason to, as tracking rolls isn't going to help you figure out what the next roll would be, but as the Nevada Gaming Control Board made a specific list of where you can take notes (cards in baccarat, spins in roulette, and the "Faro board") and craps isn't on there, I thought that somebody might object.
I honestly had no idea there was a specific list. I know you cant have any electronic devices. in the last 3+ years I have been tracking they never stopped me from the bacc card or my note pad. I just like to keep track and see how close the outcome over the hundreds of rolls (Real time) I see in comparison to the true math over millions of rolls.
I saw a guy with a small spiral notebook, jotting notes after each toss. He kept the notebook open on the rack in front of him. He was shooting alone on a slow Sunday morning, so I guess no one cared.Quote: ThatDonGuyAnd no one challenges this? Not that they would have any reason to, as tracking rolls isn't going to help you figure out what the next roll would be, but as the Nevada Gaming Control Board made a specific list of where you can take notes (cards in baccarat, spins in roulette, and the "Faro board") and craps isn't on there, I thought that somebody might object.
If you want a count, go to the Fremont downtown. They have a "Sharpshooter" promotion where you can win a prize for rolling the most times. For the purposes of the promotion, a "roll" includes the "Horn" numbers prior to, and after the point is established.
For some mysterious reason (hehe) it is difficult to get more than six rolls.
Quote: mdsI honestly had no idea there was a specific list. I know you cant have any electronic devices. in the last 3+ years I have been tracking they never stopped me from the bacc card or my note pad. I just like to keep track and see how close the outcome over the hundreds of rolls (Real time) I see in comparison to the true math over millions of rolls.
There is a list, but the list is for exceptions to the particular law (Nevada Revised Statutes 465.075) that bans devices that "obtain an advantage at playing any game", and one of the banned actions is if it "keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game". I assume that since there are no cards in craps, then tracking results is not a problem. It just seems strange, then, that they would make tracking numbers in roulette an explicit exception, but not tracking dice rolls.
They guessQuote: mugectI have seen in several threads where players have recalled to (seemingly) great accuracy their longest rolls.
Quote: mdsI honestly had no idea there was a specific list. I know you cant have any electronic devices. in the last 3+ years I have been tracking they never stopped me from the bacc card or my note pad. I just like to keep track and see how close the outcome over the hundreds of rolls (Real time) I see in comparison to the true math over millions of rolls.
I find this pretty fascinating.
Would you care to share any of your findings? Or a high level summary?
Do you only track numbers, or do you notate when a 7 is a winner, or an out 7 ?
A.W., i agree. I can't really recall any sets of rolls; but some events stick. I walked over to a table where my sister was playing at the Aria and waited at left of stick. I was up $800 from my table earlier and managed to walk away. I got bored watching her PL + 1X odds, so I arranged a row of red/green in the rack and started dropping $30 to the stick for a "yo". An Asian chick, I remember. She knew I was a bit of a punter 'cause by the third yo she would hold out her hand twisted backhanded for me to drop the chips in. I caught the 5&6 on the sixth or seventh roll. But what burned in my little brain was a second "yo" came right after! No bet on the felt at that point :(
Quote: RaleighCrapsI find this pretty fascinating.
Would you care to share any of your findings? Or a high level summary?
Do you only track numbers, or do you notate when a 7 is a winner, or an out 7 ?
It is fascinating to come home and see what transpired on any given trip. Whenever im at a table I document each and every roll even if im sitting out for a few minutes or hands. I notate when I win or lose. Every number. Does it do me any good? Probably not as every roll/hand is so independent. Alas, I don't put the results in a comp I just like to check the trips out at the end of if im board at home. I must have 600 cards from last year alone. All dated with wins and losses. But pretty cool to see real-time play. Sure there are sessions I missed but when I play my regular 1 hour sessions (Win or lose im done at the 1 hour mark) 3 to 6 times a day I am disciplined and do keep track. Walking by a table with a friend who wants to play for a little not so much. Going to Caesars to see a concert and giving them a little, no card as well. The last 3 1/2 years I only play the Don't and im way up. As I said I attribute the winning to pure luck, discipline and money mgmt. Not the cards I write on. I don't play every hand, I may play full odds (6000) twice or three times a trip depending and so on. Might throw 480 on the 6 and 8 on the come out only and take it down after the point is established or I win. But 99% of the time Don't with odds or lay depending where I stay. I will be in Vegas hopefully for March Madness. I will be the guy with the bacc cards!
Quote: mugectI have seen in several threads where players have recalled to (seemingly) great accuracy their longest rolls. I'm always so focused on keeping track of my bets & chips that I loose track in my head. Like the Borgata record, can't imagine a second-time player would think to count rolls. Do the dealers count rolls?
How do you guys keep track?
dealers count the hours until their e.o.
Quote: mdsIt is fascinating to come home and see what transpired on any given trip. Whenever im at a table I document each and every roll even if im sitting out for a few minutes or hands. I notate when I win or lose. Every number. Does it do me any good? Probably not as every roll/hand is so independent. Alas, I don't put the results in a comp I just like to check the trips out at the end of if im board at home. I must have 600 cards from last year alone. All dated with wins and losses. But pretty cool to see real-time play. Sure there are sessions I missed but when I play my regular 1 hour sessions (Win or lose im done at the 1 hour mark) 3 to 6 times a day I am disciplined and do keep track. Walking by a table with a friend who wants to play for a little not so much. Going to Caesars to see a concert and giving them a little, no card as well. The last 3 1/2 years I only play the Don't and im way up. As I said I attribute the winning to pure luck, discipline and money mgmt. Not the cards I write on. I don't play every hand, I may play full odds (6000) twice or three times a trip depending and so on. Might throw 480 on the 6 and 8 on the come out only and take it down after the point is established or I win. But 99% of the time Don't with odds or lay depending where I stay. I will be in Vegas hopefully for March Madness. I will be the guy with the bacc cards!
Sorry, I was not clear on what I was asking.
Do you ever take the data and then count the rolls and see how close the number distribution is to the expected?
Since you are only playing for an hour, I would guess you have 50 to 70 numbers on your cards, so that is not a very big sample. But if you have 30 cards, that would be really interesting to see how the distribution looks from card to card.
Quote: RaleighCrapsSorry, I was not clear on what I was asking.
Do you ever take the data and then count the rolls and see how close the number distribution is to the expected?
Since you are only playing for an hour, I would guess you have 50 to 70 numbers on your cards, so that is not a very big sample. But if you have 30 cards, that would be really interesting to see how the distribution looks from card to card.
Yes but never put several cards in a data base or xl spread sheet. I look at averages for that one day or one trip. One trip in beginning of Jan, Out of 50 hands there were only 275 rolls.(I won) The next day out of 50 hands there were 400 rolls! (I lost) There is an avg for you. Im looking for the immediate results not really future or past. Yes, I look at how many 12s came out, 7s, 11s and so on. But the math is right over 1,000,000s of rolls but not hundreds. At least that's what I came up with. Really as you know it is about variance. As I said, Timing, patients, money mgmt and luck are the only reasons I am winning. Yes, im saying to myself as I stand there waiting for a 7, "ok that's 6 or 7 or 8 numbers that just came out" "THE 7 IS NEXT"! and what happens well we just don't know at any given roll but I can tell you according to my Neanderthal note taking and the short sessions I play, for me, the 7 comes out way more than every 7th, 6th, 5th or even 4th roll.. I know the math and believe in it but this is my short term analysis. Sorry to get on a tangent and to answer your question yes I can put together what you asked and will soon. Not easy as 30 or 100 cards is a lot and time consuming.
Quote: RaleighCrapsAt least one member of this board tracks every throw, of I think every shooter, on the table. I have played with him and he has shared his data with me afterwards. It is not common, but I have seen people tracking rolls in quite a few different casinos. I have never seen anyone given any heat for it.
I track every roll of the dice on the tables I play on, it gives me something to do, with my hands and also will high-light what is happening on the table. I do nothing with this information when I get home. What happened in that session has no effect on any other sessions I play.
The one thing it does do is lets me put a face to what I've seen shooters do in the pass. I've seen players that when they are throwing, they throw nothing but field numbers or they have some other shooting quirk that can help me win.
I happened to be on the same table with RaleighCraps one time and told him when the shooter made one field number to put a field bet on him then to leave it there for five rolls of the dice. Now he looked at me like I was nuts but did it anyway. The shooter kept rolling field numbers and it put a big smile on RaleighCraps face. He asked me why I even told him to start betting on this shooter that way and I told him that every casino I saw that guy in he was rolling nothing but field numbers.
Now the funny thing is the guy is what everybody calls a so-called random roller but I see him all over town and his shooting quirk is six or seven field numbers in a row. Does he do it every time,...NO. But he does it enough for me to take notice of it.
The same time I was on the table with RaleighCraps, everybody was rolling the 12, I did a little experiment with 30 white chips, to see how much I would have won by the time I ran out of those chip. I bet on every shooter that had the dice on every roll, one white chip on the12, when I ran out of the white chips I had a $90 profit. The way that I did it was buy-in,..in the front rack, winnings in the rear.
When the front rack was out of chips the experiment was over with. Sometime we do not see what is happening on a craps table. And We all should know that what has happened in the pass has nothing to do with what is going to happen when your on the craps tables.
Because I play so often I get to see the same local players all of the time, so tracking the tables and all of the shooters I think helps me put a face to shooter, that I see getting on some good rolls, some of the times they have the dice in their hands, so I'm more likely to bet on them. There are no guarantees that it will work, and after the session is over with as far as I'm concerned that roll data is useless.
You can have a great roll one day and on your next trip to the casino you could stink up the tables. The on axis craps schools love to tell everybody about their SRR's and to tell everybody that they have a advantage on the casinos if they have a high SRR. That SRR doesn't mean anything, when you are in a casino, those rolls you did at home or the other day when you were at a casino will never be the same rolls you have today, the table conditions and the dice change everyday.
All you need is one of those late buy-ins where the money is flying across the table hitting your dice to knock you right out of the game. There are so many things that change every time you go to the craps tables that you don't think about. Every one of those players have the ability to stop a roll from happening, just by doing something stupid.
There is nothing that can help you a 100% when you are playing craps, if you want to track a table do so, and look for anything that you may think will help you out. After all it's your money on the line and you may feel a lot better by thinking you have a little control over how you are going to bet the game, by getting a little information on the other shooters on the table.
Quote: ThatDonGuy...the Nevada Gaming Control Board made a specific list of where you can take notes (cards in baccarat, spins in roulette, and the "Faro board") and craps isn't on there, I thought that somebody might object.
When I did the Beau Parker Experiment I openly wrote down rolls at a couple different casino and nobody said a thing. I honestly don't think any casino would have a problem with this as long as it was done discretely and the notebook wasn't on the top of the table.
Don't do a lot of work on it, on my account. I was just curious.
Quote: ThatDonGuyAnd no one challenges this? Not that they would have any reason to, as tracking rolls isn't going to help you figure out what the next roll would be, but as the Nevada Gaming Control Board made a specific list of where you can take notes (cards in baccarat, spins in roulette, and the "Faro board") and craps isn't on there, I thought that somebody might object.
There is nothing in any rules about tracking a table, so I don't know where you got the idea that there is.
I'm going to take the easy way out on this one and just quote the below post. I've argued before with Alan that Nevada has no rules that are written. He went out a found out that what I was saying was true.
Quote: AlanMendelsonWell, this was surprise. After seeing in another thread how New Jersey publishes its rules for playing the game of craps, I called the Enforcement Division of the Nevada Gaming Commission and asked where their regs were published. They're not. In fact, the Nevada Gaming Commission only has minimum standards for the game giving the casinos the ability to have stricter rules.
Several times some of you have asked for proof that dice sliding or dice setting was legal, not legal, valid, not valid, recognized, not recognized and wanted the rules cited. Well, there's nothing to cite, it appears.
I wrote about it on my site with attribution: http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html
Tracking a table gives you no concrete information, anything can happen on the table with the next roll of the dice. That is why the casinos couldn't care less if you are tracking a table!
Quote: superrickThere is nothing in any rules about tracking a table, so I don't know where you got the idea that there is.
You're telling me that you can "track" cards openly in blackjack? I don't think so...
Quote: superrickI'm going to take the easy way out on this one and just quote the below post. I've argued before with Alan that Nevada has no rules that are written. He went out a found out that what I was saying was true.
Here's what is "written":
Quote: Nevada Revised Statutes Section 465.075NRS 465.075 Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.
It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1. Projects the outcome of the game;
2. Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3. Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.
Source
As I said, apparently this applies only to cards.
Here is the "written" list of exceptions to this law:
Quote: Nevada Gaming Commission Regulation 5.1505.150 Devices prohibited under NRS 465.075; exceptions.
1. It shall not be a violation of NRS 465.075 for a person to:
(a) Make and refer to handwritten records of the cards played at baccarat;
(b) Make and refer to handwritten records of roulette results; or
(c) Refer to records of the cards played at faro, where the records are made by the licensee in the manner traditional to that game.
2.The chairman, in his sole and absolute discretion, may approve the use of devices not described in subsection 1 upon the written request of a licensee, subject to such conditions as the chairman may impose. No approval shall be effective unless it is in writing. It shall not be a violation of NRS 465.075 for a person to possess or use, in accordance with the terms of the approval, a device approved pursuant to this subsection. As used in this subsection, “chairman” means the chairman of the state gaming control board or his designee.
Source
The reason I thought there might be a problem with tracking dice rolls is, the list of exceptions includes tracking roulette spins, even though the law that it exempts appears to apply only to tracking cards in card games.
Quote: WizardWhen I did the Beau Parker Experiment I openly wrote down rolls at a couple different casino and nobody said a thing. I honestly don't think any casino would have a problem with this as long as it was done discretely and the notebook wasn't on the top of the table.
Yes, the 100s of cards I've used I have never used the top to write and I always stash it on the drink rail. Never have I been asked to put it away.
Quote: superrickI track every roll of the dice on the tables I play on, it gives me something to do, with my hands and also will high-light what is happening on the table. I do nothing with this information when I get home. What happened in that session has no effect on any other sessions I play.
The one thing it does do is lets me put a face to what I've seen shooters do in the pass. I've seen players that when they are throwing, they throw nothing but field numbers or they have some other shooting quirk that can help me win.
I happened to be on the same table with RaleighCraps one time and told him when the shooter made one field number to put a field bet on him then to leave it there for five rolls of the dice. Now he looked at me like I was nuts but did it anyway. The shooter kept rolling field numbers and it put a big smile on RaleighCraps face. He asked me why I even told him to start betting on this shooter that way and I told him that every casino I saw that guy in he was rolling nothing but field numbers.
Now the funny thing is the guy is what everybody calls a so-called random roller but I see him all over town and his shooting quirk is six or seven field numbers in a row. Does he do it every time,...NO. But he does it enough for me to take notice of it.
The same time I was on the table with RaleighCraps, everybody was rolling the 12, I did a little experiment with 30 white chips, to see how much I would have won by the time I ran out of those chip. I bet on every shooter that had the dice on every roll, one white chip on the12, when I ran out of the white chips I had a $90 profit. The way that I did it was buy-in,..in the front rack, winnings in the rear.
When the front rack was out of chips the experiment was over with. Sometime we do not see what is happening on a craps table. And We all should know that what has happened in the pass has nothing to do with what is going to happen when your on the craps tables.
Because I play so often I get to see the same local players all of the time, so tracking the tables and all of the shooters I think helps me put a face to shooter, that I see getting on some good rolls, some of the times they have the dice in their hands, so I'm more likely to bet on them. There are no guarantees that it will work, and after the session is over with as far as I'm concerned that roll data is useless.
You can have a great roll one day and on your next trip to the casino you could stink up the tables. The on axis craps schools love to tell everybody about their SRR's and to tell everybody that they have a advantage on the casinos if they have a high SRR. That SRR doesn't mean anything, when you are in a casino, those rolls you did at home or the other day when you were at a casino will never be the same rolls you have today, the table conditions and the dice change everyday.
All you need is one of those late buy-ins where the money is flying across the table hitting your dice to knock you right out of the game. There are so many things that change every time you go to the craps tables that you don't think about. Every one of those players have the ability to stop a roll from happening, just by doing something stupid.
There is nothing that can help you a 100% when you are playing craps, if you want to track a table do so, and look for anything that you may think will help you out. After all it's your money on the line and you may feel a lot better by thinking you have a little control over how you are going to bet the game, by getting a little information on the other shooters on the table.
how do you know that the late buy in will cause you to lose....maybe it was going to be a seven and hit the money and became a six.
