Can put bets be turned off like place bets?
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1. $5 put bets with 20x odds on all box numbers when I feel lucky
2. Turn off all bets when I feel that the 7 is coming
I know I can turn off my odds at any time, but what about my put bets?
Just bet the pass line or you are doing yourself a serious disservice.
But if I ran a casino I'd jump for joy if a player wanted this, and I'd allow it to encourage the player to make more put bets.
Funny thing. I have those feelings about a 7 coming up too. When I get them the 7 comes up about 1/6th of the time. Weird.
Quote: Concinnity
But if I ran a casino I'd jump for joy if a player wanted this, and I'd allow it to encourage the player to make more put bets.
I think it depends on your Odds offered and whether the player would Place/Buy for the same amount, anyway. If your casino offers 10x Odds, he's better off with a Put Bet + Odds than any Place/Buy, and if your casino is 3x-4x-5x Odds, he's better off with a Put 6 or Put 8 than Placing either number.
No.Quote: drjohnnyCan put bets be turned off like place bets?
Once put on the table, Put bets look like Come bets with odds. As such, the dealers can't tell the difference between a Come bet and a Put bet, so the same rules have to apply. Odds off on a come out and can be take down, but the flat part stays.
For what it's worth, a Place bet is nothing more than a Put bet with pre-defined odds. But it is also placed in a different position, so the dealers can tell it's a Place bet, so the entire bet is off on a come out and the entire bet can be taken down at will.
Get it?
Quote: Mission146If your casino offers 10x Odds, he's better off with a Put Bet + Odds than any Place/Buy, and if your casino is 3x-4x-5x Odds, he's better off with a Put 6 or Put 8 than Placing either number.
The 10x odds statement is correct. $5 flat, $50 odds pays $65 on the 6/8. Placing $54 pays $63. At 5x odds, however, the put bet breaks even with the place bet on the 6 & 8 ($5 flat + $25 odds pays the same as placing $30). Pass or come bets with odds is better than either bet in terms of HA...tom p
Quote: betwthelinesThe 10x odds statement is correct. $5 flat, $50 odds pays $65 on the 6/8. Placing $54 pays $63. At 5x odds, however, the put bet breaks even with the place bet on the 6 & 8 ($5 flat + $25 odds pays the same as placing $30). Pass or come bets with odds is better than either bet in terms of HA...tom p
I agree that Pass/Come is better than a Put Bet, I was just comparing Puts to Places/Buys.
You're also right about the Put & 5x Odds being the same as a Place for the same amount, so that's my mistake on that one. On an, "Ask the Wizard,":
https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/craps/other-bets/
Fifth question down, Wizard said a Put Bet was, "Slightly better," with 5x Odds, but on the main Odds site, it says they are the same thing. I couldn't figure out why a Put Bet would be slightly better, but blindly deferred to the Wizard. You'll go right 99.9876562% of the time.
Quote: Mission146I think it depends on your Odds offered and whether the player would Place/Buy for the same amount, anyway. If your casino offers 10x Odds, he's better off with a Put Bet + Odds than any Place/Buy, and if your casino is 3x-4x-5x Odds, he's better off with a Put 6 or Put 8 than Placing either number.
Well, your arithmetic aside (it doesn't matter either way as you'll see) the casinos allow a player to turn off their place/buy bets, don't they?
The same principle applies here. This seems an incredible no-brainer to me.
I suppose as another poster has alluded, it all comes down to the dealers having to manage the bets. In order to allow players to turn off put bets they'd have to track them differently than come/passline bets and I suppose it doesn't happen enough to make it worthwhile to them.
Damn, I seem to have a fascination with casino management at the craps tables lately. :)
For the Put 6/8 at 5x odds, even though they would pay the same as the Place 6/8, the Place bet is better, because you can always take it back down if you choose. Can't do so with the Put bet. (Even though people rarely take down bets, having the option makes it a better bet, if the payout is the same.)
As mentioned, a PUT bet cannot be taken down. However, the odds on the PUT bet can be taken down.
Given the OPs original post, PUT bets at 20x odds, that would be a slightly better strategy than Placing the bets. And when the 'feeling' comes, you can take down the odds portion of those PUT bets. Of course, when you decide to put the odds back up on those bets because the 'feeling' was wrong, the crew is eventually going to get mad at you. I've never seen it done, but I suppose they could use an OFF lammer to signify the odds aren't working. Perhaps one of our dealers will comment on the process for PUT bet odds being called off and on?
Let's assume you are on a $5 table, and you PUT all 6 numbers with 20x odds.
You have $30 in $5 bets which will all pay you even money, instead of getting the Place odds.
You have $600 in odds money ($100 on each number) that gets paid at true odds.
If you turn off the $100 in odds money,
and a 7 is rolled, you lose $30
if a 7 is not rolled, you win $5 if a box number rolls (which means you 'lost' (didn't get paid) the additional pay from the Place odds).
Of course, if a 7 rolls when everything is working, you will lose $630.
So, you have $630 at risk each roll ($600 can be taken down at any time).
If a 4/10 is rolled, you win $205.
If a 5/9 is rolled, you win $155.
If a 6/8 is rolled, you win $125.
Compare those payouts to a conventional $640 across bet (BUYing the 4/10, vig on win). $120 on 6/8, $100 on rest of numbers.
$640 at risk (all $640 can be taken down at any time).
If a 4/10 rolls, you win $195 ($200-$5 vig)
If a 5/9 rolls, you win $140
If a 6/8 rolls, you win $140 (it is more than above because we have $120 bet, instead of the $105 total above).
Summary -
Using the PUT betting, you have $10 less at risk ($630 vs $640) and you get paid $10 or $15 more on 4,5,9,10s, BUT you get $15 LESS on the more frequent 6/8, and you are guaranteed to lose $30 since you cannot take down the base $5 PUT bets.
This makes it a pretty close toss up as to which option to use. In my opinion, it also points out that a PUT bet for 10x odds is even harder to justify (if you are going to PUT all of the numbers). You will have much less at risk of course, but it is so close to the Place across option it is hardly worth it.
Quote: RaleighCrapsOf course, if a 7 rolls when everything is working, you will lose $630.
So, you have $630 at risk each roll ($600 can be taken down at any time).
If a 4/10 is rolled, you win $205.
If a 5/9 is rolled, you win $155.
If a 6/8 is rolled, you win $125.
Compare those payouts to a conventional $640 across bet (BUYing the 4/10, vig on win). $120 on 6/8, $100 on rest of numbers.
$640 at risk (all $640 can be taken down at any time).
If a 4/10 rolls, you win $195 ($200-$5 vig)
If a 5/9 rolls, you win $140
If a 6/8 rolls, you win $140 (it is more than above because we have $120 bet, instead of the $105 total above).
Summary -
Using the PUT betting, you have $10 less at risk ($630 vs $640) and you get paid $10 or $15 more on 4,5,9,10s, BUT you get $15 LESS on the more frequent 6/8, and you are guaranteed to lose $30 since you cannot take down the base $5 PUT bets.
This makes it a pretty close toss up as to which option to use. In my opinion, it also points out that a PUT bet for 10x odds is even harder to justify (if you are going to PUT all of the numbers). You will have much less at risk of course, but it is so close to the Place across option it is hardly worth it.
I was thinking of adding continuous come bets so I lose $625 instead of $630 if a 7 rolls when I have everything working. I'll also win $5 when the occasional 11 hits.
All of the local casinos I've been to charge the 5% vig as soon as you buy the 4 or 10, so I'd have to risk $650 doing a conventional spread.
The house edge for a conventional $650 spread is pretty high... (4.76*210+4*200+1.52*240)/650 = 3.33%
The house edge for a $630 spread using $5 put bets with odds is significantly lower... (1.59*210+0.95*210+0.43*210)/630 = 0.99%
Quote: drjohnnyI was thinking of adding continuous come bets so I lose $625 instead of $630 if a 7 rolls when I have everything working. I'll also win $5 when the occasional 11 hits.
Of course the occasional $5 win on the 11 will be offset by twice as occasional $5 loss when the 2,3 and 12 are rolled.
Quote: drjohnnyAll of the local casinos I've been to charge the 5% vig as soon as you buy the 4 or 10, so I'd have to risk $650 doing a conventional spread.
The house edge for a conventional $650 spread is pretty high... (4.76*210+4*200+1.52*240)/650 = 3.33%
The house edge for a $630 spread using $5 put bets with odds is significantly lower... (1.59*210+0.95*210+0.43*210)/630 = 0.99%
I haven't done the math, but .99% for PUT betting seems to be too low of a number.
Can you explain your .99% calculation for the put bets? What is the 210 number?
PUT bets in AC are not allowed.
Quote: FatGeezusYou will never have to decide which to make, a PUT bet or a PLACE bet in AC.
PUT bets in AC are not allowed.
I wish I like PUT bets enough to say "Just another reason I will never go back to AC", but I'm not that big into PUT bets.
But I will still say it......... I should change my handle to ACHater
Quote: RaleighCrapsI haven't done the math, but .99% for PUT betting seems to be too low of a number.
Can you explain your .99% calculation for the put bets? What is the 210 number?
(1.59*210+0.95*210+0.43*210)/630 = 0.99%
1.59% is the house edge if you put the 4 & 10 with 20x odds and $210 is the total amount bet on those numbers.
0.95% is the house edge if you put the 5 & 9 with 20x odds and $210 is the total amount bet on those numbers.
0.43% is the house edge if you put the 6 & 8 with 20x odds and $210 is the total amount bet on those numbers.
In order to minimize put bet losses when the 7 hits, I'm thinking now that I should bet on both pass and DP... then do continuous come and DC bets.
If the shooter rolls all 6 box numbers before the 7 out, I won't eat any losses in put bets due to the DC bets. I just have to pray I don't have any odds working when that 7 rears its ugly head... LOL
You also end up losing $10 every time a 12 rolls.
Craps is a neatly designed game. You can bet FOR and AGAINST any result, but you can never create an effective offset or hedge. The house has a built in edge on EVERY bet (except odds), so the more combination of bets you make, the more the house expects to win.
If I had the bankroll, I would stick with your original plan of $10 PUT, $200 odds on all 6 numbers, and then $10 Come Bets (or PL as needed) on every roll. You have $1250 exposed to an early 7 out ($1260-$10 CB or PL bet), assuming you are working your bets on the come out roll.
I presume you are playing the PL for $10 and taking $200 odds there as well.
If you have the numbers working all the time, you will at least break even if the shooter can roll 4 winners for you. A seven winner on the come out roll would be a killer, as would a point seven out. But once you get past the 4th winner, it would make for a nice haul on a 10 to 11 number roll.
4/10 nets $410 win each roll
5/9 nets $310 win each roll
6/8 nets $250 win each roll.
How would you handle a long roll? Since I am an Across player, I press my bets as I win. Sometimes it is full press, other times I partial press and take a bit of winnings. At some point would you start putting $15 and $300 odds, $20 & $400, $25 & $500?
I need to find a $1 craps table, so I could do this with $21 on every number. That way I could DOUBLE my bets if I started winning to $2 & $40. :-)
Quote: drjohnnyI'm thinking of trying this system out if any of my local casinos allow put bets...
1. $5 put bets with 20x odds on all box numbers when I feel lucky
2. Turn off all bets when I feel that the 7 is coming
I know I can turn off my odds at any time, but what about my put bets?
note that the OP is asking about turning the bet off, not taking it down.
this indeed is not allowed, but it is interesting to note that it would not be to player's advantage to be able to turn the bet off as long as it was never taken down*. There would be some awkwardness to seeing the bet in the same spot as the puck if the next number to be resolved was that put number, though. I imagine this reason is not as weighty as just not wanting to complicate things more than they are now.
*as long as you don't factor the advantage to player of having his bet exposed less often
Quote: odiousgambitnote that the OP is asking about turning the bet off, not taking it down.
this indeed is not allowed, but it is interesting to note that it would not be to player's advantage to be able to turn the bet off as long as it was never taken down*. There would be some awkwardness to seeing the bet in the same spot as the puck if the next number to be resolved was that put number, though. I imagine this reason is not as weighty as just not wanting to complicate things more than they are now.
*as long as you don't factor the advantage to player of having his bet exposed less often
The trick though is you need to define the 2 parts of the PUT bet. One part becomes the contract bet that cannot be called OFF or taken down. The major portion of the PUT bet though is the odds, which can be called OFF and taken down.
So if the OP PUTs the 4 for $105, he is really making a PUT bet of $5 and an odds bet of $100.
PUT betting with 20x odds is better than Place betting, but only if you leave the odds working. Once you start removing the odds, a lonely $5 PUT bet becomes the worst bet on the table (anyone say BIG 6, BIG 8)?
