Hit the back wall!

More than recently since I've been setting dice. I've been harassed by several boxmen telling me that both die need to hit the back wall. When in fact both are hitting the back wall! I assume this is their strategy to throw me off hoping that it will ruin my concentration of influencing the dice in my favor. Truth be told, I have very little experience in dice control.I live in Vegas and play craps quite often. This has happened at various casinos around town. Anyone else deal with these issues?

No, it's not to "throw you off" or "ruin your concentration." You're free to try to influence the dice all you like via setting. Hitting the back wall is a game-protection measure that protects against actually effective dice cheating moves like sliding.

The pit crew is probably just annoyed that your useless dice setting is slowing down their game and making their already-boring job even more boring, so they are being sticklers on enforcing the rules.

Quote: sodawater

The pit crew is probably just annoyed

I think so.

I have gone through this same thing, assuming they are happy I am hitting the back wall and yet they start carping, geez.

I recently had a fat broad show up from elsewhere bellowing about the back wall, when indeed I was hitting the back wall just fine. Later I decided that when this happens Surveillance or someone has told them to make sure you are hitting the back wall, and that person then decides you must not have been.

Having a good roll gets attention .

I like to think I am putting the hurt on them to be so 'all aflutter' all of a sudden.

Agree on annoying the crew and even more the boxman. At a busy table the pressure is up to get 80-100 rolls per hour. Some people can set the dice in a second or two and no big deal. Some act like it is the first time they saw dice and the fate of the world hangs on the roll.

If you want to set and be less bothered, go when things are slower, and toke the crew from time to time.

Quote: sodawater

The pit crew is probably just annoyed that your useless dice setting is slowing down their game and making their already-boring job even more boring, so they are being sticklers on enforcing the rules.

Just got back from Gold Coast and I killed it! Funny because I was using my "useless dice setting" strategy. There were some rolls where I didn't hit the back wall and nothing was said. 30 rolls tonight with 5 points made!

Quote: spr1000

Just got back from Gold Coast and I killed it! Funny because I was using my "useless dice setting" strategy. There were some rolls where I didn't hit the back wall and nothing was said. 30 rolls tonight with 5 points made!

NICE!

I think the hit-the-back-wall thing will be a touch ignored as long as the dice appear to be really randomizing. If they are slid or lobbed and it it obvious some control or manipulation is happening the box will say hit the wall. But if they bounce all over they may let it, not the dice, slide.

Just a thought.

Quote: AZDuffman

Agree on annoying the crew and even more the boxman. At a busy table the pressure is up to get 80-100 rolls per hour. Some people can set the dice in a second or two and no big deal. Some act like it is the first time they saw dice and the fate of the world hangs on the roll.

If you want to set and be less bothered, go when things are slower, and toke the crew from time to time.

Thanks for the input,but I've played at slow tables where I've been down to my last $30 and the boxman is threatening to take the dice away. I actually prefer to play at slow tables and I always toke the crew when I'm up or coloring. I have run into some great dealers around the city. At the end of the day. I'm playing $5 tables and coming in with a bankroll of $200,so with that being said I've probably answered my own question.lol You get what you pay for! Then again you can still get crap dealers,get it? crap dealers =) at high limit tables. Come to think of it I should probably give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I work in the nightlife industry with multiple casinos on the strip. These dealers go through tremendous high pressure and get paid shit. I don't blame them for having bad days.

Quote: spr1000

I've been down to my last $30 and the boxman is threatening to take the dice away.

I've had the same thing happen to me. It's very annoying. I guess the pitboss is annoyed with me and I'm annoyed with her/him. So be it.

Don't let it ruin your fun and don't give them your action if they're making you uncomfortable.

Well .. a good craps employee dealer/pitboss is there first and foremost to ensure the integrity of the game. That being said .. someone placing their dice but throws them properly really doesn't affect the long-term odds of the game.

That being said .. dealers/pitbosses are also there to make sure the game flows and that the house is maximizing dollars bet per hour. To which taking too long to place your dice can get them in trouble if you waste 30 seconds per roll on a busy table!

However .. dealers/pitbosses are also there to ensure a good customer experience .. so ultimately it's about finding a workable balance between these 3 priorities.


At the Montreal Casino we only got craps in 2000. We actually had to wait to change a law as before that it was technically illegal to throw dice to gamble because of a weird WW1 law that wanted to prevent solders from losing their pay to each other. It really wasn't ever an issue because the first casino in the province (Montreal) opened in 1993. What happened was pretty funny. The new law seemed to be created by someone who didn't really know the game .. so the law said something like ".. and the dice hits the back wall and ..". So just because of a random choice of words we found ourselves with a very clearcut black/white rule. Our tables are pretty high quality, so you'd have to be pretty amazing with dice to even stand a chance of modifying your odds. So with us, if at least one die does not hit the back wall then it's a no roll.

I always LOVED this rule .. as it kept the game pure .. I personally feel that whenever a "judgement of effort" of whether someone "tries" to throw the dice or not was actually a worse modifier than anything else. There is obvious pressure on a hot table to call a "No Roll" on a 7-out just to keep the fun and excitement going.

Oddly enough most supervisors and dealers don't like the law and they actually tried to get it changed. But that's more due to the fact that probably about 95+% of staff truly don't understand the logic/concept of odds or the game. lol

I always felt that supervisors who don't understand the logic of the benefit of having our unique clear-cut rule should be fired .. or used AS the back wall! lol ... Unfortunately that would leave us with pretty much zero supervisors! lol

Oh yeah .. for the record .. the few times I play Craps when on vacation .. I take my time to place the dice and try to keep a consistent style of throw. lol .. I even joke with the dealers and call myself an a-hole for doing it .. lol .. but I do it just for fun .. or meditation .. or I'm not even sure why .. as I know for a fact it has no influence on the results .. or at least I remember that AFTER my roll! lol .. But at least part of my silly ritual is to aim for the back wall .. and being a dealer I have a 6th sense as to how long I can take to place my dice before I ever get a warning!

Thank you Mr Left, we will not visit your casino, and instead visit the friendlier folks to your left in Ontario!

lol .. well .. if your intention is to cheat .. then please do enjoy your time there! ;)

Gaming integrity goes both ways .. I've fought for calls in the players favour just as often than the other way around!

Only an idiot casino employee tries to cheat a customer .. the games are made to for the casino to win a fixed percentage over time .. no need for the casino to fix things if you have a large enough casino with volume. In fact it's always more fun to have people wining around you .. and it's totally fine that people win .. because it just means that others are losing (probably on a black jack table somewhere .. lol).


PS .. I'm actually facing West right now .. so it's AC on my left .. and at this rate another 2 years there won't be any more casinos for you to visit there! Maybe because they lost too much money to cheaters! ;)

Quote: MrLeft

Only an idiot casino employee tries to cheat a customer ..

Just to comment on my own quote .. lol .. I'll be the first to say that there are a large number of casino employees who are idiots .. but it really isn't geo-specific .. you'll find just as many in Vegas or Niagara Falls as you will in Montreal! ;)

I'm tired of comments that seem to justify craps (or any other) dealers having a bad attitude because they get paid "shit" for their work.

I don't care. Not at all. If you don't like the pay for your job, go get another one. It is a big world out there; you don't have to be a dealer nor do you have to work at McDonalds or Walmart. You don't have to "grow up" to be a surly pit critter. You decided to be in the industry or to stay in it...deal the game and leave all the other bullshit behind. Make the right call, take care of what you are supposed to take care of, and just do your freaking job.

If the dealers act like asses, I walk to where they have a better attitude or I laugh at them being asses. If the dealers are good, we have a good game. I don't care if they are only acting nice; that shows they know their job.

One time I was dice setting and I had a brain fart and reached in with my other hand, the pit crew were NOT happy.

Hit the back wall Can be a fact of life, here in Vegas! But it all depends on the casino and the crew.

While one casino is even hassling the so-called random rollers, their sister casino don't say a thing if you miss the back wall every once in a while.

Learn to play at casinos that are not hassling you don't go to the sweat joints that may be within walking distance of where you live.

If you are setting the dice every one of your shots should hit the back wall, but there will be times that when you are hitting the back wall with every one of your shots the boxman or dealers will start in telling you to hit the back wall, don't say anything to them just throw the dice a little harder.

Some of these boxmen love to play head games with their shooters, by telling them to hit the back wall. These guys are running off good players by doing so, and they don't understand the game. The dice bounce all over the place when they hit the table and they don't even need to hit the back wall to make them random!

Slow motion videos of dice shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZf3jbjie0&list=UUfDRf2L1rCEgYtGFlS_z9ag

All of this hit the back wall BS came about because of all the fiction that is written about the so-called DI's. Our great fiction writers are telling everybody that they are taking hundreds of thousands of dollars off the craps tables a year! Way to funny if you ask me!
The casinos read the books and these boards that have anything to do with playing craps and lets not forget BJ.

So anymore hitting the back wall is just a part of the game. Sure you're going to run into suites and boxmen that don't get it, the same thing goes for dealers that are trying to move up to sitting box! Every one of your shots should hit the back wall on every shot you make, if every once in a while you happen to miss it, you should be the one that points it out to the crew.

Don't be on the offense, always be on the defense, by just saying damit hit the back wall fool, I must be getting tired. Then make sure you hit the back wall on your next shot.

Look there will be times that everybody on the other side of the table wants to see you seven out, if the table is really dumping. So they may start in with you got to hit the back wall even when you are, then they tell you that they will take the dice off you if you miss the back wall one time. It's really bad for their business when they start doing that. There is nothing like getting the whole table mad at them if they take the dice off the shooter because they are on a lucky roll.

There are some casinos that I will not play at because of all the things they try to do when a shooter is on a roll. Some of these boxmen and suits think that their a cooler and will try anything the can to get you to seven out.

There was a suit that would sit box when anybody was on a roll at Boulder Station, everybody hated that guy, he was running off players left and right. Guess what they fired him, so some time management does the right thing! My advice would be to move your game around, after all you have so many casinos to chose from here in Vegas! Find a few that does not hassle you when you are shooting, there are quite a few out there that have good crews working the tables.

Living in and around Vegas can create a problem for anybody that sets the dice if they are any good at shooting, don't go to the tables with a bunch of so-called DI's, you are only going to get hassled even more by doing so. They will include you as a DI if anybody got on a lucky roll when you were with them! Then you have to live with the stigma of being a shooter that they have to watch out for when you are shooting, way after your buddies go home.

Always be very pleasant with the crew when you are playing craps, don't get offended when they tell you to hit the back wall, you can avoid a lot of harassment by just letting it run off your back, and by hitting the back wall on every shot you make. Some of the casinos here can be real hell holes for anybody that sets the dice.

Pm me and I will tell you a few casinos to stay out of, they are nothing but sweat joints!

Quote: AZDuffman

If you want to set and be less bothered, go when things are slower, and toke the crew from time to time.

Agreed. I generally set the dice quickly, if I do so at all. Even so, I get a lot more slack for minor infractions (not hitting the back wall, making call bets, etc.) when I have thrown a few cheques out for the dealers. I never worked in a casino, but I waited tables long enough to know that it is easier to pay more attention to people who are giving you money than those who are not.

I set the dice quickly too. I do not get much heat. There is one pit boss on the strip who likes to bother me.
He was watching me, so I made special care to hit the backwall. One time I had a leaner die. His new command is they must hit the wall harder.
He claimed they needed to bounce of the wall. Hitting it lightly was not good enough for him.

That's why I love the law we have in Montreal .. it's a clear law and a clear rule .. if it doesn't hit .. it's a no role .. everyone knows that and nobody takes it personally. The fun is never taken out of the game by a "decision" seven or a "decision" no-roll for a winning point!

I think we take the dice away from people like once a month .. but mostly drunk fools who don't hit the back 5+ times in the same roll.

If it's an old person who is obviously trying then we're a little more patient.


We don't have any of the negative stories some of you are describing. Even when tourists come up .. they get used to the rule pretty quick. After I tell them the reason I prefer the rule (that it takes away the ability for the CASINO to cheat) then they are always good with it!

Because honestly .. whether consciously or subconsciously, the result the dice lands on WILL affect the way a box/dealer calls a roll vs no-roll .. and that is where the game loses it's integrity completely!

Quote: MrLeft

That's why I love the law we have in Montreal .. it's a clear law and a clear rule .. if it doesn't hit .. it's a no role .. everyone knows that and nobody takes it personally. The fun is never taken out of the game by a "decision" seven or a "decision" no-roll for a winning point!

Exactly! Clear Rules.

However, there is no such law or regulation in Nevada similar to the one in Indiana - below is a page from the Gaming regulations for Indiana:

Quote: 68 IAC 10-4-4 Proper and invalid rolls of dice

68 IAC 10-4-4 Proper and invalid rolls of dice

Authority: IC 4-33-4-1; IC 4-33-4-2; IC 4-33-4-3
Affected: IC 4-33

Sec. 4. (a) The shooter shall throw the two (2) selected dice to the far end of the table for the purpose of bouncing the dice off the backboard of the craps table. The shooter must make a good faith attempt to bounce the dice off the backboard of the craps table.

(b) A roll of the dice shall be deemed invalid if one (1) of the following occurs:

(1) One (1) or both of the dice go off of the craps table.
(2) If more than two (2) dice are thrown.

(c) The stickperson may declare the following rolls invalid:

(1) If one (1) of the die comes to rest on top of the other die.
(2) If a patron other than the shooter throws the dice.
(3) If the dice do not leave the shooter's hand simultaneously.
(4) If one (1) or both dice come to rest in the dice bowl.
(5) If one (1) or both dice come to rest on the rail of the craps table.
(6) If the shooter has not placed a pass bet or don't pass bet.
(7) If the shooter throws the dice in the wrong direction on the craps table.
(8.) If the shooter slides the dice across the table so that one (1) or both of the dice do not roll or tumble.
(9) If one (1) or both dice do not fall flat on the craps table, but rest on the chips or tokens stacked on the craps table.
(10) If the shooter does not make a good faith attempt to bounce the dice off the backboard and the dice are not thrown at least one-half (½) the length of the craps table.
(11) If the dice come to rest in a manner that it cannot be determined which face of the die is uppermost. The stickperson's declaration of an invalid roll may be overturned in accordance with section 5 of this rule.

(Indiana Gaming Commission; 68 IAC 10-4-4; filed Oct 30, 1997, 12:40 p.m.: 21 IR 924; errata filed Feb 6, 1998)

Statutory Common Sense

Cool .. thanks for posting that .. I actually don't even know what our law says! I'm surprised they don't have one in Nevada!?

I actually disagree with that law in terms of keeping integrity in the game. "Good faith" is needlessly ambiguous compared to what we have in Montreal.

Because it leaves lots of room for personal opinion in what constitutes "good faith"! Not having a clear rule only really helps cheaters (on *both* sides of the table, as employees can definitely be the source of a cheat as well) at the end of the day. And can only create arguments! :-/


PS .. I love 4.b.1.2 "more than 2 dice are thrown" .. I've actually seen that .. but always the shooter was joking around .. took me a while to find where to place the puck for "14"! lol

Was playing craps today at Paris on the strip.
Playing the dont.
Middle aged black lady throwing the dice. Well, trying to throw the dice.
She has a wrist problem but still wants to throw. 1st throw, 2 dice fly at the dealer off the table. 1st time I saw that, 2 dice completely missing.
Anyway next throw so weak dice dont leave her side of the table. Dice did roll but not many times and not far. Dealer accepted the roll. I was shocked. Didn't say anything because didnt cause me to lose but really surprised they accepted the roll. They stayed on her end of the table, dont even think they hit the side wall. What is the actual rule regarding this? Judgement call by a dealer? If dont hit back wqall, they then use judgement to accept or not accept?

Quote: terapined

Was playing craps today at Paris on the strip.
Playing the dont.
Middle aged black lady throwing the dice. Well, trying to throw the dice.
She has a wrist problem but still wants to throw. 1st throw, 2 dice fly at the dealer off the table. 1st time I saw that, 2 dice completely missing.
Anyway next throw so weak dice dont leave her side of the table. Dice did roll but not many times and not far. Dealer accepted the roll. I was shocked. Didn't say anything because didnt cause me to lose but really surprised they accepted the roll. They stayed on her end of the table, dont even think they hit the side wall. What is the actual rule regarding this? Judgement call by a dealer? If dont hit back wqall, they then use judgement to accept or not accept?

If the dice have forward motion, then the roll is valid. Although, the dealer/box person can declare a no roll (short, didn't hit back wall, etc.) -- I think a no roll has to be said before either die stop.

Quote: RS

If the dice have forward motion, then the roll is valid. Although, the dealer/box person can declare a no roll (short, didn't hit back wall, etc.) -- I think a no roll has to be said before either die stop.

And considering the first roll, he probably doesn't want to chastise her for not hitting the back wall either.

Something similar happened to me.

One die dropped and rolled foward about 2 inches while the other hit the wall. They ruled it a good roll but told me to try not to let that happen again.


I also once picked up all five to shake them, then without thinking threw all five! They all stayed on the table, but when I was done laughing and apologizing, there were only two dice in front of me.

Both dice must hit the back wall, it's a rule of the game. DI's are annoying, rule breakers, pissing off everyone around them. Pick the dice, throw it, hit back wall, loose or win and go back home. Next day you go to work like everybody else. You don't make a living by breaking casino's rules.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I also once picked up all five to shake them, then without thinking threw all five.

Now that sounds like a fun craps game.

Can you imagine Ahigh trying to set and toss all 5 on axis at once.

Quote: Dicenor33

Both dice must hit the back wall, it's a rule of the game. DI's are annoying, rule breakers, pissing off everyone around them. Pick the dice, throw it, hit back wall, loose or win and go back home. Next day you go to work like everybody else. You don't make a living by breaking casino's rules.

Wow!! That is good bit of venom for a thread that started with someone saying that they set the dice and hit the back wall and were warned to hit the back wall. Gee, that sounds like a bit of extra hassling of the player to me; not someone trying to be a "rule breaker"... I don't think DI works, but I don't see those that are careful shooters slowing the game down as much as the guy who comes in, tries for a Yahtzee, picks up differing pairs of dice and tosses them at the wall in front of him, and then picks out the two he likes...and promptly tosses them so hard that they fly off the table every other roll. That is the guy who slows down the game...

Pit people need to stop the dealer cross talk, treat customers playing a negative expectation game as valued customers, protect the game vigorously without being idiots, verify the payments, get those markers out, and keep the game moving. Needlessly telling someone to "hit the back wall" when it is hit each time is just stupid. Taking two seconds to put the dice the way you want them is not slowing down the game a bit...

Hitting the back wall is a rule of the gaming authorities in Nevsda, Michigan and New Jersey.

Some casinos will enforce it more strictly than others.

Deal with it.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Hitting the back wall is a rule of the gaming authorities in Nevsda, Michigan and New Jersey.

Some casinos will enforce it more strictly than others.

Deal with it.

He said that he was hitting the back wall; they still hassled him by telling him to hit the back wall.

There was nothing for him to "deal with" other than poor customer service.

We should follow the written rules and laws but why get hassled about something that you are already doing?

I suspect that the reason the craps crew reminded the OP that the dice had to hit the back wall is because they saw he was a dice setter.

No doubt they've seen a plethora of "DI wannabes" aiming to barely kiss the back wall and coming up short in doing so.

Sort of a "preemptive scolding," reminding them of the rule which most of their ilk try to circumvent.

Quote: MrV

I suspect that the reason the craps crew reminded the OP that the dice had to hit the back wall is because they saw he was a dice setter.

No doubt they've seen a plethora of "DI wannabes" aiming to barely kiss the back wall and coming up short in doing so.

Sort of a "preemptive scolding," reminding them of the rule which most of their ilk try to circumvent.

Sort of treating a customer like crap in advance of them actually doing anything wrong. Why do that? DI is unproven (at best) and you can always wait until the customer actually MISSES the wall before scolding them...then you could justify strongly saying something like "the next time you don't hit the roll, sir, I will disallow the roll"...

I don't understand why people here would condone bad treatment by the pit for something that has not even happened yet...

I'm not in the casino business so I am only speculating, but I suspect craps crews have gotten the word from On High not to allow DIs to take any shots at a dead cat bounce or whatever the current flavor of the month might be.

Heck, with all the print out there (thanks, Frank) about dice setters winning millions from casinos, it would be foolish for casino execs not to try to stamp out this foolishness.

Quote: RonC

He said that he was hitting the back wall; they still hassled him by telling him to hit the back wall.

There was nothing for him to "deal with" other than poor customer service.

We should follow the written rules and laws but why get hassled about something that you are already doing?

There is no written law about hitting the back wall in Nevada, so Alan is wrong,.. Casinos have their own rules that they change for different players. If your not setting the dice most casinos will not say anything to you if you just happened to miss the back wall. I've seen players never even make it pass the prop bet area and never have a thing said to them, because they were so old it was a miracle that they got the dice that far!

Some dealers shouldn't be working in a casino, they hate the players and will do anything they can to take it out on the players, one way of doing that is to hassle anybody that does not hit the back wall.
There is no such thing as customer service anymore in the casinos. Most of these dealers would rather stand at an empty table all day long, knowing that the other hard working dealers are making tips for them to share.

The worst thing that ever happened to casinos was when they started tip sharing, it allowed sub rated dealers to make a some what decent living if they are working on the strip,off the hard working dealers that know how to treat their customers! The dice bounce all over the place when they hit the tables anyway, without even hitting the back wall.

Quote: RonC

Sort of treating a customer like crap in advance of them actually doing anything wrong. Why do that? DI is unproven (at best) and you can always wait until the customer actually MISSES the wall before scolding them...then you could justify strongly saying something like "the next time you don't hit the roll, sir, I will disallow the roll"...

I don't understand why people here would condone bad treatment by the pit for something that has not even happened yet...

Bad treatment of customers is now the norm for a lot of casinos, maybe that is why we have some of them closing. I need toilet paper, I don't need to gamble. If you are treated badly move on to the next casino. There are a lot of casinos here in Vegas that I will not play at because of the way they treat their players. Don't patronize any casinos that give their players a hard time. Don't let any dealer treat you in a condescending way.

Actually, the stickman SHOULD somehow knock down or interfere with one of the dice when he does call "no roll". Otherwise, if the die are allowed to stop, unmolested, invariably the total is the point # or a hardway or field # everyone is heavily invested in and then the fight is on, the crew is accused of cheating everybody and it sorta goes downhill from there. So ideally, there is some interruption of the dies path when calling "no roll.