Separating voodoo with etiquette

Just to be perfectly clear up front, a seven comes 1/6 rolls. Period.

I have no superstitions and I actually try (for reasons unknown) to explain about cognitive biases like recent results and confirmation bias to my table mates, if they are the conversationalist type. But regardless of my feelings about voodoo nonsense like "hit the money go funny" or "shorty works for the casino", I still think there should be established and enforced etiquette at the craps table.

I can't stand people who constantly keep their hands in the tub after the dice are out, or who put money on the table after the dice are out, etc. Not because 1/6 of the time a 7 rolls, but because it's rude. I play about 2x a month in Shreveport (100x odds FTW!) and there are enough locals to where this is not often a big deal, but the other night a guy came up to the table while I had the dice and the action went as follows:

"Dice out, hands high"

-I pick them up and do exactly zero voodoo with them. But as I'm about to throw, a guy puts both arms in the tub (where my toss will land) and counts out..."

"One..two hundred on 5, One, two , three hundred on 6"

He has no chips in front of him... so he's just counting off from a wad of $100s.

I ask him if he wants any more bets. He says nothing. I toss them once and roll a whatever-I-rolled.

Stick man takes his time and asks the guy if he wants to buy in. He says no.

"Dice out hands high"

I sort of wait for him, pick up the dice and he tosses a bill in the center for a $100 12 and yells "please no seven!!" (no bet says the stick man)

I toss the dice and as they are in the air he is reaching down to make another late non-bet and the dice hit him in the forearm. Inconsequential number... lets just say I rolled a 10.

Now the whole table is starting to get upset, and he remains totally sober and clueless (arrogant? Idiotic? I dunno).

Next roll is a 7, who cares, 1/6 yadda yadda, as far as I'm concerned. But the almost full table is extremely pissed at this guy for "causing" the eventual 7. I'm just upset because he is breaking every rule of etiquette I can think of, except spilling his drink on the table.

How can we, as a community of craps players, handle this type of situation so we make the game more smooth and fun for everyone? Other than hoping his $100 bets on 12 bankrupt him soon enough.

What other breaches of etiquette should be written into casino rules in your opinion? And how many of them would look like voodoo superstition to the 85% of people who believe in such nonsense?

I truly think it should be a rule that no new cash can hit the felt until someone seven's out. If you have chips, make bets, but otherwise just wait a roll or two or three. And if you get your arms in the tub 3x in an hour, they should ask you to leave. It's really not that hard to avoid.

I assume you mean separating voodoo FROM etiquette. A lot of the casino regulations regarding player (especially shooter) conduct will short-circuit many of the more outrageous stunts. But the guy you describe is valuable to the casino. $100 prop bettors get cut LOTS of slack. Disciplining Mr. Voodoo would likely alienate him, and he would take his -$16+/roll EV elsewhere. Also, forbidding cash to come in on the table during a hand would likewise prevent people from betting--something the casino doesn't want to do.

I remember many instances of on the BJ table, we $5-betting scum screaming for drink service but then when a black-chip bettor arrived at the table, an endless train of cocktail waitresses streamed back and forth from the bar; they all but tilted his head back and jammed a funnel in his mouth. (The rest of us were ignored, of course.) The most cherished and fondled casino customer is the idiot with a stack of Benjamins. If you objected to Mr. Voodoo'd antics, I'd be willing to bet that they would continue French-kissing him and maybe throw YOU out.

Yes I did mean "from" :)

But my rated average is around $200/hand and I tip every hand. I don't win and they take care of me, but I know why they won't get rid of him. $100 per roll on the 12 is sweet action. I was more driving at what we could do as non-jerk players to minimize these antics. Again, not because they bring bad luck. But because they bring annoyance.

If i were in that siutation i would just ask the dealers to watch my chips while i went to the bathroom or to go get a coke or something. If i get angry at the table it affects my play so i just remove myself from it for awhile. If you are worth your salt as a player you can come back and play after this guy leaves. If he doesnt leave then politely ask the pit boss in private if he will kindly ask the rude guy to keep his hands up or his bets and the dice roll will be called off. Its all in he hands of the pit boss. He has to acknowledge all of his patrons not just the idiot 100 dollar prop bettor.

Quote:

How can we, as a community of craps players, handle this type of situation so we make the game more smooth and fun for everyone?

On a couple of occasions, due to a player's egregious offense against good craps sense and decency, I have yelled at them, angrily.

Not threatening, mind you, just yelling.

"Keep your hands UP when the dice are out!"

Once the dice are in the shooter's hand, he/she is in control of the game. I just wait when someone is sticking their hand down, etc. I won't shoot while someone is doing that. I don't think other players would begrudge you for waiting, because they want a fair roll, too. I've done it several times & people knew why. Of course if the dice are in the air, it's too late.

Someone can have their C__CK on the table when you toss the dice, and nothing will change. People just want something to blame when they lose.

Just throw the dice at the player. Problem solved.

new guy buying in between rolls - their fault
cocktail waitress comes by with your drink in between rolls - their fault
friends coming by to see how you are doing - their fault
kissing your wife/girlfriend in between rolls - their fault
some random observing the tables - their fault
dealer talks about their sports bet in between rolls - their fault
that guy who pulls his bets back - their fault
not requesting same dice - their fault
requesting same dice - their fault
making 2 way bets - their fault
split second hesitation between rolling because you wanted to place the 8 - their fault
parlaying hardways since it hit on previous roll - their fault

basically "their" being everyone but the roller, in the mind of the roller.

Quote: AxelWolf

Someone can have their C__CK on the table when you toss the dice

No action on the Big Johnson!

Quote: DicePhD

How can we, as a community of craps players, handle this type of situation so we make the game more smooth and fun for everyone? Other than hoping his $100 bets on 12 bankrupt him soon enough.

Any time the game stops being fun? Stop playing.

The casino will figure it out otherwise just go do something else. Not your job.

If he's betting big and you're not, the casino probably will take his side.

Quote: Sonny44

Once the dice are in the shooter's hand, he/she is in control of the game. I just wait when someone is sticking their hand down, etc. I won't shoot while someone is doing that. I don't think other players would begrudge you for waiting, because they want a fair roll, too. I've done it several times & people knew why.

I'd also have the stickman bring the dice back to the middle, as he is supposed to do when there are late bets. If they refuse, just stand there without rolling. Then when they prompt you to roll, ask for new dice. They'll get the message and do a better job of controlling the game.

Quote: AxelWolf

Someone can have their C__CK on the table when you toss the dice, and nothing will change. People just want something to blame when they lose.

I thought this was painfully clear in my original post, but I'll say it again. I'm asking about etiquette and not anything else. In the story at hand, it wasn't until the 3rd roll that a 7 came anyway...and once again, to be clear, it had nothing to do with the idiot and his wayward arms. It annoys me when someone does that and I hit my point, which, again, happens exactly as often as probability would dictate.

Quote: djatc

new guy buying in between rolls - their fault
cocktail waitress comes by with your drink in between rolls - their fault
friends coming by to see how you are doing - their fault
kissing your wife/girlfriend in between rolls - their fault
some random observing the tables - their fault
dealer talks about their sports bet in between rolls - their fault
that guy who pulls his bets back - their fault
not requesting same dice - their fault
requesting same dice - their fault
making 2 way bets - their fault
split second hesitation between rolling because you wanted to place the 8 - their fault
parlaying hardways since it hit on previous roll - their fault

basically "their" being everyone but the roller, in the mind of the roller.

What are you talking about. Nothing in this thread (from me) is about someone's "fault" for causing a loss. I was attempting to start a conversation about how we could all try and keep the game running smoothly. Unless I'm the only one who finds it annoying when people disrupt the game every roll with bets/activity that is done unnecessarily. It seems to me that the combination of voodoo believers and those of us who just don't like rude people should be powerful enough to influence change at the table.

And once again, I'm a member of the latter group. Not the former. I used to keep a notecard with me at the table and mark down all the rolls after stick change, or that hit money, or after the dice went off the table...just so I could show it to people who started bitching about voodoo.

Quote: DicePhD

What are you talking about. Nothing in this thread (from me) is about someone's "fault" for causing a loss. I was attempting to start a conversation about how we could all try and keep the game running smoothly. Unless I'm the only one who finds it annoying when people disrupt the game every roll with bets/activity that is done unnecessarily. It seems to me that the combination of voodoo believers and those of us who just don't like rude people should be powerful enough to influence change at the table.

And once again, I'm a member of the latter group. Not the former. I used to keep a notecard with me at the table and mark down all the rolls after stick change, or that hit money, or after the dice went off the table...just so I could show it to people who started bitching about voodoo.

You are not at all the first craps player to be unhappy about bad etiquette. It's been discussed here several times lately, fwiw. I'm just learning craps, myself, and the table etiquette is very important to me; you bring out several good points. Enforceable? Probably not. But, at the least, some peer pressure from other shooters is understandable, and certainly the box/stick/dealers could help more.

About the voodoo - I was at Showboat in AC pretty tired and leaning on the table with my hands gripping the edge. Lots of action on the 6 and 8 which were hitting. Shooter at other end of table rolls hard, hits my hands and a 6 drops. Does it again and an 8 drops. Stick and box were screaming at me to get my hands back. Players were telling me to ignore them and leave my hands there LOL.

Quote: DicePhD

Nothing in this thread (from me) is about someone's "fault" for causing a loss.

you can believe what you wants (DI - the Earth IS not flat and so on and ons)
Buts sure it is someone's "fault" for causing a loss.

I think, in my opinions, most blind faith craps players who believe every thing they read at first glance, are over at the Craps forum.
Not I
as I believe you are trying to place blame on others for not having fun playing craps.
just my opinion as is this one too
"I ain'ts no one's fool"

Quote: DicePhD

I was attempting to start a conversation about how we could all try and keep the game running smoothly.

well you did!
But the game belongs to the casino and if it is not to your liking, go to another or have it out with the ones in charge.
The boxman, the stick and the awful player who takes the fun out of playing craps

this looks right

Quote: DicePhD

Unless I'm the only one who finds it annoying

you might be
if you are annoyed playing craps find something else to play or play some where else.
like a high limit table with no other players
problem solved

Quote: DicePhD

when people disrupt the game every roll <snip> <snip> <snip> <snip>

yes, you are the only one
every roll

have fun setting new standards!
Sally

Honestly, I've never thought of craps players as being especially notable for their tact in situations like this. I think it would be quite acceptable to say something like, "Hey pal, keep your hands away from the table when the dice are ready to toss, okay?"

Actually, I think a player should always be tactful and humorous in making any comment about an errant player.

Its up to the casino to keep the game going but it up to the players to register their desires and annoyances in a low key manner prior to anything becoming real trouble.

There are a lot of ignorant first time players who do not announce themselves as such.

There are also a great many players who generally know the rules but on occasion do tend to forget them.

If the stick has not only sent the dice out to you but called out that the dice are out and people should keep their hands away but someone persists in reaching their hands beyond the rail particularly right where you are about to lob the dice, I would just quietly drop the dice onto the felt... and wait. Then pick them up and shoot. You don't have to have said anything. The stick should be doing his job. If the stick doesn't like your slowing the game down, he knows he should speak to the player not to you.

If you have to you speak to the stick directly to get action, do it.

Many players don't understand chips straddling the pass line. It slows down the game and often the crew still doesn't explain the proper locations. If the errant player is near me, I've explained things to him briefly

From the op, it really sounds like the guy was doing it on purpose. I would expect the crew, and especially the stick and box to keep the errant players in-line. If someone is bugging you, or allowed to continue to bug you, I would bug out. Life is too short to not enjoy your time at the table.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Table etiquette is very important to me. Enforceable? Probably not. Certainly the box/stick/dealers could help more.

If the Box, Stick, and Dealers are there to run the table, I imagine etiquette is enforceable. If they can back you off or throw you out for no reason, they can certainly do so for some reason.

Quote: DicePhD

How can we, as a community of craps players, handle this type of situation so we make the game more smooth and fun for everyone?

Target practice. Someone puts their hands in, just try to hit them as hard as you can. It's fun and serves a purpose!