Adding an additional bet to my passline after the point is established.

Im fairly new to the game of craps so ive taken it upon myself to study as much as i can about the game before spending alot of money on it. Ive played craps for about a year or so now but am still learning the game with all its different kinds of strategies and betting patterns. I came upon an article on the internet that said if i wanted to i could add an additional bet to my passline after the point was established. The reasoning behind this PUT bet is that if you wait untill the point is a six or an eight you will be able to add up to 10x odds behind them making it a better play than going through the come first. On all other passline bets that establish 4 5 9 or 10 as the point you should just play your original five dollar bet with max odds. what i want to know is if adding another five dollar bet with max odds when the point is 6 or 8 is a good strategy in craps. sounds to me like a good idea since those 2 numbers are the best points. I should add that he said most casinos will allow you to add to your passline bet with full odds behind.

Quote: spadeknight

Im fairly new to the game of craps so ive taken it upon myself to study as much as i can about the game before spending alot of money on it. Ive played craps for about a year or so now but am still learning the game with all its different kinds of strategies and betting patterns. I came upon an article on the internet that said if i wanted to i could add an additional bet to my passline after the point was established. The reasoning behind this PUT bet is that if you wait untill the point is a six or an eight you will be able to add up to 10x odds behind them making it a better play than going through the come first. On all other passline bets that establish 4 5 9 or 10 as the point you should just play your original five dollar bet with max odds. what i want to know is if adding another five dollar bet with max odds when the point is 6 or 8 is a good strategy in craps. sounds to me like a good idea since those 2 numbers are the best points. I should add that he said most casinos will allow you to add to your passline bet with full odds behind.

For beginners placing the point is always better. If you're an expert, you don't need to ask about this. If you do a search on this topic, you'll find experts correctly claiming that it's technically better to put in certain circumstances.

This is sort of like how it's technically better to not play the game at all.

If you really want to go for full-on best approach, stop playing.

Otherwise, I say just place the point and don't even use the term "put bet" in a real casino. It's a sure-fire way to either look like (1) a totally beginner who doesn't understand how horrible put bets can be or (2) an expert who wants to split hairs about the rare conditions required for a put bet to make any sense at all.

thanks for the reply ahigh. I will say that the only thing i disagree with you about is place bets being better for beginners. I almost always do passline bets with max odds and If the point is a 6 or 8 then it might make sense to add more to your passline and odds bets because those points are the best numbers to bet on. It sounds like a good bet since im getting 10x odds where i play.

Quote: spadeknight

those points are the best numbers to bet on

A funny thing happened on the way to the casino cashier. I found out the House has a way of handling "better numbers to bet on"

Sorry, I'm really in a "wise guy" mood this morning. What you are really saying is you want more action and don't like getting the outside numbers at random. Truth is, those numbers pay better, and the 6 and 8 don't pay well. It's not a strategy to win more, then, to put the 6 and 8, is my view, that even if put bets had no penalty. For me, if a guy wants more action, place more come bets, but accept the random outcomes.

With 10x odds, if you just gotta do it, it's no big deal.

But I agree with Ahigh about the beginner thing.

Adding to your original bet... a put bet... is always a good thing when you win. When you lose it means you lost more.

Besides that ... ask the casino if they allow put bets.

Recently at Caesars I tried to make a put bet and one of the new dealers stopped me. We had to get a floorman to say it was okay. The new dealer didn't know.

Doing a Put bet can have it's advantages - assuming you're betting enough to make it work.

And it's got NOTHING to do with what the point is, and everything to do with whether or not you are already on that number. And how much you count every dollar.

I.E. If you've got $5 on the line and the point is a 6, well, just go ahead and do your full odds. However, you may want to Put $5 + $50 on the 8. If the point isn't a 6 or 8, you may want to Put both numbers.

Here's why:

If you make a place bet of $54 and it hits, you're paid $63. If you make a Put bet of $5 + $50 and it hits, you're paid $65. You risk an extra buck, to make an extra two. Woo hoo!

Now if you're in a casino that has 20x or better, then the numbers really start to swing in your favor. But it the table minimum is $5, then you need a serious bankroll to take advantage of it - just to win a couple extra bucks.

On the other hand, if you're in a place that has $1 minimum with 100x, then it's a whole 'nother story. Of course, there are also many casinos that don't even allow Put bets.


Bottom line: Your milage may vary.

Quote: spadeknight

I came upon an article on the internet that said if i wanted to i could add an additional bet to my passline after the point was established.

can you link to this article?

Quote: spadeknight

what i want to know is if adding another five dollar bet with max odds when the point is 6 or 8 is a good strategy in craps.

all betting systems
(methods or strategy - except making ONLY odds bets over a lifetime of play or
buying the unwanted don't bets a player wants to throw away)
in craps are bad ones.

some badder than others in my opinion

so do you mean is it a good strategy compared to all the other bad ones or do you have a specific strategy in mind you would like this compared to?

Sally really likes to know

as I will just Lay against a point I do not think the shooter will make (especially male shooters)

and I am up (thank me) in my lifetime of play with that bad strategy

whatever it takes to win and have more fun!
because
winning at Craps = more fun

Quote: spadeknight

thanks for the reply ahigh. I will say that the only thing i disagree with you about is place bets being better for beginners. I almost always do passline bets with max odds and If the point is a 6 or 8 then it might make sense to add more to your passline and odds bets because those points are the best numbers to bet on. It sounds like a good bet since im getting 10x odds where i play.

It's important to note that I am only comparing place bets to put bets, not place bets to line bets.

Here I specifically talk about how beginners fall victim to a 33.3% HE environment making the mistake of the put bet.



Experts don't need advice. If you don't know how to avoid this, you're better off never making a put bet ever. Many people fail to understand this, don't worry if you do. Just remember to never make a put bet or a pass line bet after the point is established.

If you learn how to place the point, it's ALWAYS preferable (to a put bet) for a beginner.

You can also bet the come bet exclusively to avoid the mistake with put bets on the pass line.

I honestly prefer that experts stay out of this conversation because it only confuses this issue. I'm talking about a bad 33.33% edge. I don't care about the tenths of a percent splitting hairs between a place bet and a put bet with max odds. It's complicated enough for beginners already.

Quote: Ahigh

Experts don't need advice.

are you a Craps expert?
yes
or
no

Quote: Ahigh

Just remember to never make a put bet or a pass line bet after the point is established.

horrible and wrong type of advice (but appreciate your opinion here)
in my opinion to give to anyone (maybe OK to my blind squirrel friends)
no proof offered

and I am no craps expert.
cans onlys thinks ofs twos thats evers hass existeds ands ones ofs thems iss deads.

Sally says so

Quote: mustangsally

can you link to this article?

The link might be this: http://www.dicesetter.com/craps_strategy/strat11.html

deleted

Quote: mustangsally

horrible and wrong type of advice (but appreciate your opinion here)

Your statement above is what is wrong. It's in the context of advice for a beginner.

Are you a beginner? Yes or no?

If you're not, this advice is not for you.

My advice is absolutely not an opinion. If a beginner remembers to never bet the pass line after the point is already established, this is good advice for a beginner.

You and your opinions are not welcome in this context by me.

Further, your opinions are, in my opinion, intended to make me upset.

And that I really do NOT appreciate.

And even someone who's not a craps expert can appreciate your very personal tone to your derogatory message aimed in my direction.

Your message came across to me as arrogant and rude.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Experts in craps don't play craps.

Which is precisely why they need no advice. And I think I pointed out at the top in my original post that the best advice is just not to play.

Quote: Sonny44

The link might be this: http://www.dicesetter.com/craps_strategy/strat11.html

that is a funny site!

Quote: mustangsally

that is a funny site!

Why not show us a photo of what you look like?

Quote: Ahigh

Your statement above is what is wrong. It's in the context of advice for a beginner.

Are you a beginner? Yes or no?

yes

Quote: Ahigh

If you're not, this advice is not for you.

you mean if your not

Quote: Ahigh

My advice is absolutely not an opinion.

yes it is, in my opinion


Sally

Quote: Ahigh

Why not show us a photo of what you look like?

Because I may want to run for public office some day
and showing one now would just be advertising (I give the best hand jobs btw IMO)

Quote: spadeknight

sounds to me like a good idea since those 2 numbers are the best points.

Oh I missed this part.
They may be the best points but they only have a winning probability of exactly 5/11 or abouts 45.45%
The Field bet win prob = 16/36 or abouts 44.44%
not much of a difference and one can win way more betting the Field on any one win.

of course ANY Lay bet has the highest win prob at Craps going up from a low of 54.545454545454545454545454545455%
to a high of 2/3

winning more at craps = more fun I say
what do you say?

You have great math skills anyway.

Focus on the good stuff.

Thanks for the video Ahigh. very good information about put bets.

I would only consider this kind of bet on the 6 or 8 because of the 5 to 6 odds of the dice rolling these numbers because the 6 and 8 are way eaier to roll than a 4 or 10.

http://krigman.casinocitytimes.com/article/when-do-put-bets-at-craps-beat-their-place-and-buy-counterparts-5946 This is a link to the article i read. It was written in 2003. You might have to copy and paste it into your browser.

No im not an expert. but thanks for asking :)

Quote: spadeknight

Thanks for the video Ahigh. very good information about put bets.

I do not watch too many
non-entertainment type videos (the baby one is an exception) especially where the voice in the video grinds on my central nervous system.

For entertainment I normally read the Google transcript
That video reads funny

w here's the morn typical missed a I haven't seen the casino
0:04 you walked up to this well this play over here issuing
0:08 he's got on us on for he's got a pass line bet
0:12 and you can see the point mark as a for that on them
0:17 there warmth this year right you're trying to shoot for
0:21 or he doesn't want to hear about us he wants to hear about
0:25 for you wanna see India all on this issue
0:29 for shooter you can't you can tell wish
0:32 trash fortune with their pastime English
0:35 for whatever numbers marked by the spot right here news
0:39 they're smart have the money back here this is their previous
0:42 with the house it doesn't have any advantage now
0:45 you're just coming up here is the player what's the danger for you
0:49 here's the worst thing you could do you see I'm here
0:53 past after sorry spore powerhouses
0:58 there's do that happen this that did
1:01Tampa Bay even mine generally pays off one out of three times
1:05 you do were if it were this here
1:08 which ones same frequency his of dull so they're really keeping have the pain
1:13 they should be %um the secret with this
1:17 every other mistake about then passed too late
1:21 is how you stack your chips on the line
1:24 this generally he put a whole lot of money
1:27 here only his even marginally better
1:31 points5 here forces agent and you walk up to the table
1:35 just the Monroe your online you know
1:39 should this call he'll stack for take the bottom shipment
1:43 offset but also fortune diameter
1:46 in the research is going Harbor you coming to an end heated
1:51 were people who play in in you input he'll start online
1:55 like that that the original you know what's going on
1:58 you see the point murder %um the point the usual verbalize
2:03 placing point and they know that this is going
2:06 this is going to pay is a hundred dollars and stacked like this
2:10 its gonna pay on 109
2:13 five dollars it stacked like this the European I'm
2:17 dollars plus here base so
2:20 as a beginner player knowing that mean
2:23 the park is here you better run actually the
2:27 visited physically on this line is called pathfinder
2:30 this is the alarm I'm past that monolithic put it on the line
2:35 blotter furnace commuter using this
2:39 there's actually three buttons positions pathfinder
2:42 is Arthur this is referred to as I'll service
2:46 place that Molly Brown place for
2:49 rappers mine here to the word our
2:52 placed for by just parked his or
2:55 that's a special case where combat social service close
2:58 that solar electoral table
3:01 when you can bet between the second twirl
3:05 in the third will in in bed on through in double 0
3:08 is this is a special mark as the soldiers
3:12 later but again as a new player them most important thing
3:16 knows do not pass line points
3:19 already Marquis special warrant that
3:23 absolute worst you can make table very very very important

Quote: spadeknight

http://krigman.casinocitytimes.com/article/when-do-put-bets-at-craps-beat-their-place-and-buy-counterparts-5946 This is a link to the article i read. It was written in 2003. You might have to copy and paste it into your browser.

Thanks
He is one of the only 2 craps experts I know of.
and we know he is a dead man

added: I do not think he ever dealt the game but maybe he did, in a real casino that is
that makes a difference if you truly are a craps expert, in my opinion, and that could change btw
Sally

Quote: spadeknight

I would only consider this kind of bet on the 6 or 8 because of the 5 to 6 odds of the dice rolling these numbers because the 6 and 8 are way eaier to roll than a 4 or 10.

way easier? That is relative

But the 4 and 10 pay way way more than a 6 or 8 ever will
Dont you want to win more money when you do win?

or do you only want to win more often?
IF that is true, try Lay bets

Sally

I did not think you were an expert, the question was aimed at Ahigh and he never answers.
So he is not a craps expert either, in my opinion
and that is what really matters

Thanks for the reponse. actually im trying to win more often since i dont want to expose myself to the table any longer than i have to and the 6 and 8 roll more times than the 4 or 10. I probably wont employ his strategy just yet. I want to get advice about it before i go frollicking in the land of "i sure hope this works" ville.

Quote: spadeknight

actually im trying to win more often since i dont want to expose myself to the table any longer than i have to

that could be a crime in most casinos -
"i dont want to expose myself to the table any longer than i have to"

Quote: spadeknight

and the 6 and 8 roll more times than the 4 or 10.

that is because of the dice and nothing more.
A $30 Buy 4 could net you on a win $59
A $30 Place 6 only nets you $35

what bet (from the 2 above) gives you the best chance to show a lifetime profit of say 3000 bets?
no math, what you feel?

Sally

lifetime is one thing and one session is another.

Quote: spadeknight

lifetime is one thing and one session is another.

nice opinion.
now you sound like an expert
just remember there are no craps experts here at the Wizard of Vegas
none

fact: we all only play one lifetime session
(Rick Parris claims to have never made one bet in a casino. But he is now dead)

fact continued: we only pause our one lifetime session, and that could be many times and then we are dead

No difference if we see 100 rolls today and every other day for 3000 days
or see 3000 rolls every day for the next 100 days

we saw only one lifetime session of 300,000 rolls

Independent and identically distributed random variables
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_and_identically_distributed_random_variables

Sally

I forgot, you also crap out when you throw a 7 and the point is established on the pass line

sharp stuff

Quote: mustangsally

he never answers.

this thread is all yours .. you seem to know everything, so I will leave you to it.

Quote: mustangsally

just remember there are no craps experts here at the Wizard of Vegas
none

Who is an expert? One who has the entire litany of expected value for all bets? One who knows the best strategies? One who knows how to win at almost any table? Or?

Quote: DeMango

Who is an expert? One who has the entire litany of expected value for all bets? One who knows the best strategies? One who knows how to win at almost any table? Or?

Good question: who is a craps expert? I would suggest that a craps expert is one who knows how to run the game, who knows which bets are proper and how to pay those bets. And the craps expert would know the odds for various bets winning. And the craps expert would know the proper procedures for the dealers and for the players as well as the rules of the casino (which could vary).

Winning or losing is not how you define a craps expert.

However, someone who wins could be defined as a lucky player or a skilled player depending on your reasoning for the player's wins.

For sure, a Craps Expert working for the House, and in charge, would allow, and encourage even, the put bet.

That doesn't mean it's crazy to make one, especially if able to place large free odds. But it favors the house.

And for our guy in charge, it would pay off handsomely because ...

Quote: spadeknight

the 6 and 8 are way eaier to roll than a 4 or 10.

... because I am afraid I am compelled to fail to spare our OP but bluntly say this statement is evidence that he is never going to get it. He otherwise shows plenty of intelligence. Those who would increase their action, seemingly not able to realize they are doing only that, looking for some system that will finally work to let them win, are out there in droves.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Good question: who is a craps expert?

A great question!
not only how does one define a "craps expert"
should have its own thread

This list of craps experts must be short
John Scarne is on it (reading Scarne on Dice)
Jimmy Page for sure too, hmmm, I may have him confused with Paul Rodgers

I am not a craps expert
here is my small list of others I consider not a craps expert
(so, my opinion - because they all have not proved to the world (or me) they are an expert. Do not feel bad if you do not see your name on my list)

Sally
Ahigh
Alan Mendelson
Michael Nesmith <<< he is on other lists too. Had a famous Mom.
Frank Scoblete
The Captain
Henry Tamburin
Albert Einstein
Mike Trout <<< not the fish
(the November 9)

time for lunch time
Sally

Quote: mustangsally

A great question!
not only how does one define a "craps expert"
should have its own thread

Dare it be suggested? Our host.

I don't think Sally is in her 20's.

Quote: mustangsally

A great question!
not only how does one define a "craps expert"
should have its own thread

This list of craps experts must be short
John Scarne is on it (reading Scarne on Dice)
Jimmy Page for sure too, hmmm, I may have him confused with Paul Rodgers

I am not a craps expert
here is my small list of others I consider not a craps expert
(so, my opinion - because they all have not proved to the world (or me) they are an expert. Do not feel bad if you do not see your name on my list)

Sally
Ahigh
Alan Mendelson
Michael Nesmith <<< he is on other lists too. Had a famous Mom.
Frank Scoblete
The Captain
Henry Tamburin
Albert Einstein
Mike Trout <<< not the fish
(the November 9)

time for lunch time
Sally

Fortunately for me, your opinion of my expertise is something I file under one of many personal insults you have sent my way.

You have led some to believe some things that I consider to be untrue. For example, the truth that you can win $99 from a $100 wager exactly half the time on average in craps. Although I don't know what exactly you disagreed with there, there is a similar thread of unwillingness to admit the truth of things from you.

I personally believe that you dislike me and that you have personal issues with me. That's the only reason I can imagine you leaving the forum previously citing me as the reason for your leaving.

Quote: Ahigh

Fortunately for me, your opinion of my expertise is something I file under one of many personal insults you have sent my way.

You have led some to believe some things that I consider to be untrue. For example, the truth that you can win $99 from a $100 wager exactly half the time on average in craps. Although I don't know what exactly you disagreed with there, there is a similar thread of unwillingness to admit the truth of things from you.

I personally believe that you dislike me and that you have personal issues with me. That's the only reason I can imagine you leaving the forum previously citing me as the reason for your leaving.

I consider you a craps expert.

I would ignore sally people don't know what she is talking about half the time.

Quote: AxelWolf

I would ignore sally people don't know what she is talking about half the time.

Most of the time.

I wouldn't ignore Sally, just any insults. And any time she makes any weird comment.

Don't flaunt your Maleness if you don't want the evil eye from Sally. Ahigh, you may come across to her as insufferably assertive.

Quote: spadeknight

I came upon an article on the internet that said if i wanted to i could add an additional bet to my passline after the point was established. The reasoning behind this PUT bet is that if you wait untill the point is a six or an eight you will be able to add up to 10x odds behind them making it a better play than going through the come first. On all other passline bets that establish 4 5 9 or 10 as the point you should just play your original five dollar bet with max odds. what i want to know is if adding another five dollar bet with max odds when the point is 6 or 8 is a good strategy in craps. sounds to me like a good idea since those 2 numbers are the best points. I should add that he said most casinos will allow you to add to your passline bet with full odds behind.

It's actually a lousy idea! Think of the amount you place on the Pass Line during come-out and what you add post-point as two separate wagers. Now, which one has the better house edge? Clearly the first bet at just -1.414%; the other Put money can never do better than -9.191%. $50 in Odds behind a Put of $5 on Six or 8 wins $65 to $55, or $120 for $55. True odds would pay $66 to $55, or $121 for $55 so the HE = -1/121 = -0.8264%. The come-out $5 with $50 Odds behind it has HE = -0.18445%, about 4.5 times better. Never increase the Line once a point sets; put all additional money on Odds.

mustangsally



I would suggest that a person that indicates they are not a craps expert is hardly in a
position to judge who is .

Craps is no different than anything else in that there are more than just one aspect to it. You
could be an expert in the bets you make, or the relationship between them in terms of
lowering the house advantage. You could be an expert in the out come of the dice. By that
I mean the relationship between certain outcomes and others. You could be very skilled in
your toss, you could be an expert in the game of craps and never play it.

the trouble with the game of craps and these boards is ego.... no one would ever admit
that some one else knows more than they do , throws better than they do, wins more than
they do.

I would offer that there are many experts in the game, and all have something to offer to those
that would check their ego's at the door.

I would agree that placing the point against male shooters would not make one an expert since there
are more male shooters than female, and making a point is far less than 50% after one is established.

Your knowledge of the math could certainly make you an expert on that.

Imagine a board were people actually wanted to learn.

Dicesetter

Craps Expert = Not playing such an asinine game.

thanks

Quote: SanchoPanza

Dare it be suggested? Our host.

a craps expert?
The Wizard of Odds
He did not make my list

what are his qualifications?

and again what qualifies one to "be a craps expert"

He writes about Craps. yes
He does craps math. yes
He plays Craps and won a $50,000 Las Vegas Craps tournament. yes

Does he have any documented long hands? I no know

he pays women (not all) to take pictures of them. yes

he says he does not like to play Craps, oh oh

looks like he could be considered by many to be a craps expert
Does not make Sally's list of Craps experts

try again in my newest thread coming soon
what qualifies one to "be a craps expert"
Sally

Quote: dicesitter

mustangsally



I would suggest that a person that indicates they are not a craps expert is hardly in a
position to judge who is .

Craps is no different than anything else in that there are more than just one aspect to it. You
could be an expert in the bets you make, or the relationship between them in terms of
lowering the house advantage. You could be an expert in the out come of the dice. By that
I mean the relationship between certain outcomes and others. You could be very skilled in
your toss, you could be an expert in the game of craps and never play it.

the trouble with the game of craps and these boards is ego.... no one would ever admit
that some one else knows more than they do , throws better than they do, wins more than
they do.

I would offer that there are many experts in the game, and all have something to offer to those
that would check their ego's at the door.

I would agree that placing the point against male shooters would not make one an expert since there
are more male shooters than female, and making a point is far less than 50% after one is established.

Your knowledge of the math could certainly make you an expert on that.

Imagine a board were people actually wanted to learn.

Dicesetter

I disagree. I am one of many people on here who reads and participates to learn. I would even venture a guess that those who know they have something to learn outnumber those who claim to know it all, by far. We're just not quite so prolific about it as many soi-disant experts.

Quote: odiousgambit

I wouldn't ignore Sally, just any insults. And any time she makes any weird comment.

my weird comments are made for one and only one reason only.

to think and learn

They are one

think about it
please visit my new thread
Sally

Quote: dicesitter

mustangsally

yes

Quote: dicesitter

I would suggest that a person that indicates they are not a craps expert is hardly in a
position to judge who is .

nice opinion
I am not a craps expert but know when one is
a paradox?

Quote: dicesitter

Craps is no different than anything else in that there are more than just one aspect to it.

another nice opinion
a feel good one

Quote: dicesitter

the trouble with the game of craps and these boards is ego.... no one would ever admit
that some one else knows more than they do , throws better than they do, wins more than
they do.

I know Ahigh knows way more about Craps than I do.
The Wizard of Odds too.
you may also
another feel good moment

Quote: dicesitter

I would offer that there are many experts in the game, and all have something to offer to those
that would check their ego's at the door.

I accept your offer

please
name just one and why you consider that one a craps expert

Quote: dicesitter

Your knowledge of the math could certainly make you an expert on that.

you sweet talkin' guy
but I have to disagree with you on that

I may be very good at some things I do buts a math expert.
Thank you for your nice words (you are nice. in other words... you're nice)
hehe

Quote: dicesitter

Imagine a board were people actually wanted to learn.

That was John Lennon

what to learn and are we learning the truth from an expert?

opinions are everywhere

Again your response is typical for this forum. We are not looking for an expert, we are looking for
"the expert" just as we dont look for a person that can influence the dice, we look for a god like
person that can influence the dice on every throw.

What amazes me is nothing is ever good enough for anyone on here, thus my ego comment.

I know a number of people that i feel are expert in one or more areas of the game of craps, I am not
silly enough to name them on this forum, and doom them to a months worth of criticism. In addition
being an expert in some areas of the game of craps does not require one to be a life long winner.

The moderator indicated he feels like most people on here are here to learn, well?? you will have to decide
that for yourself. But i would bet that if the moderator would look at the game of craps, he would be
able to name some that have enough general knowledge to be an expert. I would not ask him to name any
for same reason i wont.

I would offer a simple question... why cant any one be an expert, could it be that no one on here would
accept that some else may actually be better versed than they are on the game of craps???


Dicesetter