All, Tall, Small Bonus Rules Clarified

I received this email and permission to post these rules clarification from Harley and I don't think he is selling anything:

"As we have discussed before, there are no craps laws or regulations in Las Vegas or Nevada so the Casino can make up or change at any time whatever craps rules they wish. In fact, unlike most states where the Casino's license is owned by the taxpayers of the state and therefore a patron has the right to play as a resident or visitor of the state, this is not so in Nevada where the Casino has the right to refuse any bet.

And this is the case with the All, Tall, Small Bonus Craps Bets:

These are 3 separate proposition bets that first started at Sam's Town on Boulder Highway several years ago. Then within the last few years these Bonus Bets spread like wild fire when Galaxy Gaming http://www.galaxygaming.com/ purchased the rights and started marketing it across the United States. You can get more information about these Bonus Bets from ... WizardofOdds.com Link

However, most casinos do not properly allow you to bet these Craps Bonus bets:

1. Sam's Town will no longer let anyone re-bet these 3 proposition bets on any roller once a Come-out 7 is thrown,
whereas the normal rules of the game allow you to re-bet EACH of these proposition bets ANYTIME after a 7 or after they are made
Sam's Town only allows you to bet the All, Tall, Small proposition bets once per roller -- do they allow only 1 Hard 8 bet per roller ?? -- is Sam's Town still in the gambling business ??

2. Most other casinos, except Downtown Grand Las Vegas Casino will not allow you to re-bet either Half after they are made until after the ALL bet is made or until the next shooter. Both the SMALL bet and the TALL bet are independent proposition bets and once made should be able to be re-bet regardless if the ALL bet has been made or not. However, most of the casinos argue that the 3 bets are NOT independent and can not be re-bet until the ALL bet is completed or a 7 is rolled.

How can so many casinos and so many professional dealers get it wrong 24/7 for so long ?! This is not much different than how the casinos can wrongly use unbalanced dice for so long with so many dice experts and dealers not knowing they do.

Many of the dealers said they did not know how to mark that Half was already made.
Seriously ?! All you have to do is turn the Lammers on that side over differently or mark it some other way -- these professionals have several little tricks of keeping track of unlabeled Hop bets and what's on the table and in your pocket.

.... As for Sam's Town, we just quit playing there -- it is not craps consumer friendly, especially since they do not use balanced dice most of the time .... but with the other casinos, I have had numerous conversations with dealers and Boxmen as well as conversations with Galaxy Gaming and finally a possible resolution:

On July 9th, Galaxy Gaming in Las Vegas had an internal meeting to discuss this problem of the Casinos not properly playing their bet and concluded the following:

- Discussed the mathematician's study that re-betting either Half does not change or increase the House advantage,

- To Discuss with each casino that re-betting either the SMALL bet or TALL bet after it is made (but before the ALL bet is completed) is no different than re-betting the Hard 8 after it is made so that they can give this option to their customers if they wish in Nevada,

- Galaxy Gaming is to develop new Lammers (Markers) for each casino that will say something like "Small Side Qualified" or "Tall Side Qualified" to make it dealer friendly.

As a consumer you have a choice where to spend your entertainment dollar .... and now you may want to ask before you buy-in what the House rules are on re-betting these proposition Bonus Bets .... as you have a choice to walk across the street or fly to a different state."

--
Posted By Blogger to Craps Advantage Players ® (CAPs) at 7/11/2014

" as you have a choice to walk across the street or fly to a different state." How did that work out when 6/5 BJ first started ?

Just asking.

And after a shooter makes all six numbers on the Fire Bet the players at the table can't bet the Fire Bet again on the same shooter as he continues to roll and makes more passes. That's the rule and I can live with it... even though I was at a table when a shooter made all six numbers and then continued to roll to make four more passes which would have been another 25-to-1 payoff.

Quote: Buzzard

" as you have a choice to walk across the street or fly to a different state." How did that work out when 6/5 BJ first started ?

Just asking.

Las Vegas survives on those that can't do math.

Just saying.

AlanMendelson, as a consumer advocate, why would you even invest in the Fire Bet when the All, Tall, Small Bonus Bets are available across the street with a better ROI, better probability and less House advantage?

I can live with not re-betting the Small/Tall that is made until the All is resolved. Yes the 1/2's are independent, but they are marked to not only track the progress of the Small/Tall halves, but also to mark the progress of the All. To have to re-set them & mark "Small Qualified" or "Tall Qualified" in order to facilitate the Re-Bet of either half, once made, isn't worth the potential confusion. Plus I think the marketing aspect of walking by a table and seeing the Small or Tall completed with only one or two spots to go for the All to pay off, is beneficial for future action on all three bets.

With regard to not allowing all three bets to be re-bet after a 7 is rolled immediately after a point (e.g. a 7 roll where the shooter retains the dice) or after the All bet has been completed by a shooter, is a silly procedure that decreases the operators win on the Small/Tall/All. When all three bets are lost and are re-set (or all are won), the operator should take new action on all three bets regardless of whether the shooter retains the dice or not.

Quote: Bohemian

I received this email and permission to post these rules clarification from Harley

Bohemian is suspended for three days for passing on communication from a banned member.

Quote: Bohemian

AlanMendelson, as a consumer advocate, why would you even invest in the Fire Bet when the All, Tall, Small Bonus Bets are available across the street with a better ROI, better probability and less House advantage?

Good question.

First, if you mean that it's available at the Bellagio the problem is I am not exactly welcome at the Bellagio's craps pit. Nor am I particularly welcome at any other MGM property.

But given a choice between a Fire Bet and the ATS bets, of course I would prefer the ATS bets. I used to play them at Sam's Town years back.

Quote: Paradigm

I can live with not re-betting the Small/Tall that is made until the All is resolved. Yes the 1/2's are independent, but they are marked to not only track the progress of the Small/Tall halves, but also to mark the progress of the All. To have to re-set them & mark "Small Qualified" or "Tall Qualified" in order to facilitate the Re-Bet of either half, once made, isn't worth the potential confusion. Plus I think the marketing aspect of walking by a table and seeing the Small or Tall completed with only one or two spots to go for the All to pay off, is beneficial for future action on all three bets.

With regard to not allowing all three bets to be re-bet after a 7 is rolled immediately after a point (e.g. a 7 roll where the shooter retains the dice) or after the All bet has been completed by a shooter, is a silly procedure that decreases the operators win on the Small/Tall/All. When all three bets are lost and are re-set (or all are won), the operator should take new action on all three bets regardless of whether the shooter retains the dice or not.

I've never played the Tall/Small/All bet. Notwithstanding, an OFF button once the Small or Tall is completed (presumably like the Fire Bet being "OFF" until new shooter). The remaining bets are live (ON) until 7-out. IMHO T/S/A that is ON for come-out should be OFF, make it easier to figure. /MHO

Assuming no dealer mistakes, the bet should be available:

(1) Any time there are no bets already on the bet
(2) Immediately following a completion where all three bets win
(3) On any roll following a seven

I have seen Bellagio exercise #1
I have seen Jerry's Nugget exercise #2 -- everyone won twice on a single shooter without a seven
#3 I generally see plenty of places

The case I haven't seen that I don't think makes as much sense is when the tall pays off and before the small pays off, booking more tall bets before the other two bets resolve.
Even though this is possible, it's too likely to create confusion.

#1 above also creates confusion when numbers are not marked that players know that they rolled based on come bets.

Well it would be nice to see the casinos get this right , I've looked at http://www.galaxygaming.com/games/table-games/bonus-craps/ and have always said that you have three prop bets that make up this bet, after all you can bet on any one of those bets or all three of them, the odds shouldn't change even if one side was made already.

So why not be allowed to re-bet one of the three bets if it already hit. I want to know why a casino wouldn't allow you to re-bet it after a come out roll of a seven, like Sam's Town does here in Vegas, when all other casinos around Vegas allows you to do so? Do they think that it changes the odds?

Once every table has these bets, it's more likely that it will be operated in a more standard way.

As it is now, it's a source of conflict in many cases. And I have seen them not come down when they should have many times. But I've also seen numbers fail to get marked for multiple rolls before the problem was fixed as well.

The bets are a pain for most crews.

Quote: Ahigh

The bets are a pain for most crews.

Question: at the casinos that offer the ATS... who marks the numbers? Is it a boxman, floorman, dealer?

When I played the ATS at Sams Town years ago they had a boxman. The Caesars casinos are notorious for not having boxmen anymore.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Question: at the casinos that offer the ATS... who marks the numbers? Is it a boxman, floorman, dealer?

When I played the ATS at Sams Town years ago they had a boxman. The Caesars casinos are notorious for not having boxmen anymore.

That all depends on the casino you are playing at, most now days have the dealers marking the bets, even at Sam's Town that happens. Most dealers are more then happy to mark the numbers if you have a bet up for them, sure you are going to run into dealers that complain that the bet slows down the game.

From what I've noticed these are the same dealers that think their job is to stand at an empty table for 8 hours a day and let all of the other dealers in the table gaming department make their tokes for them, they couldn't care less about the game they are dealing. The players are interrupting them from their conversations with the other dealers and boxmen about the BS they are throwing to each other!

I know that Caesars and even Bellagio, now have Boxmen that are not sitting at the tables full time, but the ATS isn't a hard bet to deal, and it brings in a lot of players, that are looking for higher playing bets, that make a lot of money for the casinos. The same thing goes for bringing the bet right back after it's been made, the houses edge does not change, and it's fun for these players to see if they can get lucky and hit it again.

The ATS is a common bet know days here in Vegas, if it wasn't profitable for the casinos they wouldn't have it, having all the casinos playing it one way would make the bet a lot easier for the players and the dealers, because there are a lot of dealers moving around now days as they are always trying to find a better job, with opportunity of making more pay!

We now have the SLS that is scheduled to open in August, I've been talking to a few dealers that are going to make the move to there when that happens, it will be interesting to see what kind of bonus bets they put on their tables when it opens!

The idea that the ATS is a hard bet to deal is just ridiculous, keeping track of the bet is very easy to do, and it's your responsibility as a player to make sure that they markup the numbers as they are rolled, just like making sure you get paid on any other bet you have your money on!

If you can't keep track of the bet I feel sorry for you, you should spend your time doing something else, I hear dealers complaining about their jobs all the time, it's to hard to pay the hardways or they don't know the pay outs for prop bets, why are these players making those bets, woe is me! The poor, poor dealers, maybe they should get a different job, where they wouldn't have to do anything at all, if they can just find one they would all have it made!

Quote: Ahigh

Once every table has these bets, it's more likely that it will be operated in a more standard way.

As it is now, it's a source of conflict in many cases. And I have seen them not come down when they should have many times. But I've also seen numbers fail to get marked for multiple rolls before the problem was fixed as well.

The bets are a pain for most crews.

Ahigh, I am not going to argue confusion of these bets because that is all relative. Many people believe craps in general is confusing so they don’t play, others believe making a Place Bet and a Lay Bet on the same number is confusing, but I have seen this guy do it all over Las Vegas often. I have a concern with both your posts on this thread for several reasons:

1. I have seen these bets operated very smoothly by break-in dealers without a Boxman at Jerry's Nugget in North Las Vegas without a problem. As the Stickman brings the dice to a rest in the center of the table after each roll, he/she takes the stick and pulls down the lammer marking the last number he just called. How is that confusing or a pain?

2. These 3 independent proposition bets are already on about 1 out of every 4 crap tables in Las Vegas or on more than 80 tables just in Las Vegas for over a year. So how long does it take a professional dealer to learn how to make a bet correctly even with an instructional video and training!

3. The bets are also in over 11 casinos in Mississippi and at least 3 casinos in Indiana as of a year ago. How much longer do you want to wait until Casinos and professionals get it right?

4. As I understand it, you work for a Gaming Developer, what if you produced a game and the Casinos just decided to change the rules or not follow the rules in accordance with your website and how you were telling your patrons the game was played? See minute 2:40 of the instructional video produced by the Gaming Developer that is several years old. How hard is it for a professional dealer to follow these instructions:

GalaxyGaming.com Video near bottom of page on this Link

Quote: Ahigh

Assuming no dealer mistakes, the bet should be available:

(1) Any time there are no bets already on the bet
(2) Immediately following a completion where all three bets win
(3) On any roll following a seven

Notice how this very “old” G2E instructional video from the developer invalidates point (2) of your post and completely supports my initial post of this thread for which I was banned 5 days (only on Wizard’s board does 3 days = 5)

NYNY also violates the basic rules of this game and video as they do not pay off any of the 3 proposition bets until after a 7-out instead of immediately after a decision is made on each of these bets.

That same video shows a place bet being set up to look like a come bet.

And yeah, dealers get confused. The reason this bet is so well-dealt at Jerry's Nugget is because the folks who bet the game there like those bets. They also like the hi-lo, and they also like to hop 3, 4, 5, and even 6 different hop bets at the same time. Even more if you count the horn.

Jerry's Nugget operates a $3 game and they live off high house edge bets. The "feature bets" as they call them there are actually some of the lower edge bets that they book. I see plenty of big 6, big 8, and $3 on each number over there (rounding down is very common on place bets there).

The fact that the dealers know how to deal these bets there is a testament to their ability to make money on a low-limit table with players who don't read forums like this that give them the knowledge of the math behind the bets.

Beau Rivage is the casino I have played the A/T/S bet at the most. I have never played a game there without a boxman, and 90% of the time, the boxman is marking the ATS bet. However, when the box is busy with other duties, the stick easily marks the number, by pulling the lammer onto the number with their stick. Pretty simple procedure.
But, in those times where the stick is having to handle a lot of center/horn action, I have seen the dealers seamlessly take on the lammer duty. It can be done. As has been pointed out, lazy dealers will make a mess out of this bet, but they make a mess out of the game anyway.
A craps crew that works together as a team can handle this bet, with or without, the box running the lammers. I love this bet. Wish I had thought of it.

Can a casino change the rules on the ATS bet to fit better with house policy and still call it the ATS just willy nilly?
Also, my understanding is a player wishing to bet the ATS or any part of it has to bet at minimum, the table minimum. So a flea has to come up with another wager besides the minimum on the ATS, which here is one each. That is fair enough. But should only have to make that risk once [and leave it during that roll], not continually.
To define my question more accurately if I can. The AVI casino in Laughlin put the ATS bet on their table. [yay]

The latest iteration which has caused me to post is this. Five dollar table, no problem. I want the ATS, and to bet it one dollar each, in order to make the minimum wager [$5], I need to put something else out on the felt besides just one each on the ATS. So I take a pass line wager for five on another shooter. The point is 6 [no matter] and he hits it right away after getting three hits on the ATS. The six is a winner. He is ready to continue his roll but I don't want another bet after being paid on his winner six.

The dealer tells me I have to have "skin in the game" to wager the ATS. I tell him I already did, he says, "them's the rules". So being the smarty pants that I am, [not really] I bet pass and don't pass. He says it's ok with him, but the floor boss is headed over to tell me that I have to at least put odds on one of them to have "skin in the game".

Does that seem right, that I have to have a continuous pass or other bet working, to allow my bet on the ATS to stay up?

No, that's ridiculous and I'm pretty sure against the regs. The casino can't require you to make one wager in order to keep another one on the table. They're separate, independent bets and changing that would completely alter the math on the side bet (pushing it far below the required 75% payback if they forced you to remove it after the initial roll(s)).

If the dealer tells you you need to have skin in the game, tell him that the expected house win on $3 ATS is more than 3x as much as the expected house win on a $5 pass bet. About 3.25x, in fact. So he can give you grief about having skin in the game, or he can keep you at the table as a more valuable player than someone who just sits on the $5 line with no other action.

Quote: MathExtremist

No, that's ridiculous and I'm pretty sure against the regs. The casino can't require you to make one wager in order to keep another one on the table. They're separate, independent bets and changing that would completely alter the math on the side bet (pushing it far below the required 75% payback if they forced you to remove it after the initial roll(s)).

If the dealer tells you you need to have skin in the game, tell him that the expected house win on $3 ATS is more than 3x as much as the expected house win on a $5 pass bet. About 3.25x, in fact. So he can give you grief about having skin in the game, or he can keep you at the table as a more valuable player than someone who just sits on the $5 line with no other action.

I have been told that your 'aggregate' action has to be at least the table minimum, when it comes to playing center table bets. So, on a $5 table, you would need to have $2 on each of the ATS. Then you would not need any other bet. This is the rule in the majority of the casinos I have been in.

It's a native casino, does that change them having to go by Nevada rules?

Are you saying that as long as the table minimum is met, in this case 5$, they shouldn't require any other bet?

The ATS is actually 3 bets, isn't it? Thanks

Quote: RaleighCraps

I have been told that your 'aggregate' action has to be at least the table minimum, when it comes to playing center table bets. So, on a $5 table, you would need to have $2 on each of the ATS. Then you would not need any other bet. This is the rule in the majority of the casinos I have been in.

Sure, but all the other center bets are stateless. The casino policy of a minimum aggregate there is harmless because even if the bet were removed, it wouldn't change anything. But the ATS bets (and the Fire Bet) are not stateless, they accumulate points toward a winning outcome and an increasing player EV along the way. Removing them is similar to removing the Don't Pass bet -- it's a terrible idea. But I don't believe the casino can require you to make any additional bets at all (consider what if you had no more money, etc.), and if they force you to remove the ATS bets instead then that probably spoils the compliance with minimum payback. The proper policy, if the casino requires a minimum aggregate, is to require the table minimum across the ATS bets always (so 2-1-2 or 1-3-1 or 5 on one of them, etc.) But if they let you bet $1 on each, that's a bet independent of any other action on the table. Or it should be.

Now, a savvy dice player might make find a $10 table, then make a $10 pass with $1 Tall and Small bets, and then wait for the line bet to fall. If the Tall/Small bets are still up and the casino requires a $10 aggregate minimum, tell them you'll put the required $8 on whichever of Tall or Small has the most numbers already covered.

And they say AP craps is dead.

Quote: MathExtremist

Now, a savvy dice player might make find a $10 table, then make a $10 pass with $1 Tall and Small bets, and then wait for the line bet to fall. If the Tall/Small bets are still up and the casino requires a $10 aggregate minimum, tell them you'll put the required $8 on whichever of Tall or Small has the most numbers already covered.

But in this case where the place bet falls, I assume you mean 7 away, that wipes the board clean including the small and tall, does it not?

Quote: petroglyph

But in this case where the place bet falls, I assume you mean 7 away, that wipes the board clean including the small and tall, does it not?

A 7 would, yes, but if you win a place bet there's no requirement you keep it up. "$26 and down". They can't require you to make it again. But that's why I said pass bet instead of place because that's a player-service bet. If the pass point wins pick up the winnings and the original bet and put them all into your rack. Then just wait for the ATS to resolve.

Quote: MathExtremist

If the pass point wins pick up the winnings and the original bet and put them all into your rack. Then just wait for the ATS to resolve.

On my last trip to Bellagio I bet $25 on the pass and $5 on each of the STA. And that was all I bet. This way I profited on a come out 7, and I could make a profit with two passes and have my money working for a big win. At this particular session I hit a SMALL once and a TALL twice.

Quote: MathExtremist

A 7 would, yes, but if you win a place bet there's no requirement you keep it up. "$26 and down". They can't require you to make it again. But that's why I said pass bet instead of place because that's a player-service bet. If the pass point wins pick up the winnings and the original bet and put them all into your rack. Then just wait for the ATS to resolve.

I misspoke, kindly replace place with pass

That is exactly what I did, is pick up a winning pass w/odds, and just wanted to watch how my ATS played out while another player fired away. The shooter had made either two or three #'s on the tall side.

That is when the rest of the story played out, I put a pass bet out as instructed and the shooter soon 7'd away. So it cost me a little bit, but the sum doesn't matter. I played for another hour or so. They have adjusted the rules two or three times in the month or so since I became aware they had installed the ATS.

I hope this forces the other Laughlin casinos to offer bonus bets?

I usually bet 2-1-2, the all being $1. I notice others betting 1-3-1. Does this effect the ev much?

One night at Bellagio a player at a $15 table had $15 on the pass line with single odds and $100 on the ALL. That's all he bet. He made the small once and the tall once but lost a lot of money that night.

Quote: petroglyph

Can a casino change the rules on the ATS bet to fit better with house policy and still call it the ATS just willy nilly?

No, they can't change the rules willy and especially not nilly. The rules must be specified in advance and the licensing authority has to approve.

Quote: petroglyph

The dealer tells me I have to have "skin in the game" to wager the ATS. I tell him I already did, he says, "them's the rules". So being the smarty pants that I am, [not really] I bet pass and don't pass. He says it's ok with him, but the floor boss is headed over to tell me that I have to at least put odds on one of them to have "skin in the game".

It always cracks me up to hear things like this. If by "skin in the game" he means he wants you to put more money "at risk" and he maintains that the DO/DON'T combination doesn't meet that requirement, then he has no idea what he's talking about. What could be more at risk than a DO/DON'T bet? Such a combination (without odds) not only puts your money at risk, it also has NO chance to ever win. What could be better than a guaranteed winner for the casino??!!

Now that being said, consider this: You're a newbie who decides to play this DO/DON'T system you heard about. Unfortunately, you don't realize it should also be played with odds. You barely know anything about craps let alone odds and there's no spot on the table marked "odds bet". You play your flat bets for a few hours and the dealers never mention odds. Surprisingly you lose. As a matter of fact, you're never ahead. Later, you tell your math weenie friend about it and he explains that you never had a chance to win! Your face turns red as you realize the casino let you play a guaranteed losing method. Shouldn't there be a rule that you must have at least some chance to win? You call the gaming control board to complain that you were cheated. Do you have a case? In Vegas? In Jersey? Indian casino? Maybe, maybe not ... something to consider. Maybe the floor was just protecting the casino from accusations of cheating. If such was the case then wouldn't it be better if he'd explained the real reason you need to play odds rather than "skin in the game"? But then, perhaps I'm giving him too much credit for trying to protect you by way of protecting the casino. Since there are other bet combinations which also have no chances to win and I doubt they'd stop you from making them all, it's questionable.

Quote: petroglyph

Does that seem right, that I have to have a continuous pass or other bet working, to allow my bet on the ATS to stay up?

You have to remember that the casino is a business and like any business has to protect its interests and try to maximize its profits (oh how evil!) There's a tremendous cost to building an elaborate casino, staffing it with employees, greasing all the right palms, etc. How would you like to make such an investment only to find that your tables fill up with nickel and dime fleas who belong in the dive down the street? (Not that I'm implying you're a flea!)

Of course it's a moot point if fleas are the only patrons that can be had, but for the sake of argument let's assume they're not. In this case, you have to find some way to ensure that your better patrons can find a place at your table. Perhaps a cover charge? A dress code? Minimum bets? These won't guarantee anything but I'll wager they increase the likelihood of weeding out the fleas.

It may not seem "right" that they ask you to make additional bets, but if they've established a non-arbitrary rule that you must then you must. It doesn't even have to make sense. They could require that you purchase a rubber Elvis from the gift shop and wear a cape!

Steen

Quote: Steen

No, they can't change the rules willy and especially not nilly. The rules must be specified in advance and the licensing authority has to approve.

Are the rules the same on the ATS bet for every casino? Down below you mention that if they choose, I may have to buy a rubber Elvis at the gift shop. I was just trying to clarify the rules, and if that is a stipulation going in, I may or may not choose to purchase the King. I just don't want it to be the King one week, and next week have it be some country legend, or Sinatra.
Those .25 claw games with the fuzzy dolls are already a bane to my existence.

Quote:

What could be more at risk than a DO/DON'T bet?

That's funny. A bet which is guaranteed "not to win" the DO/DON'T, doesn't have the highest edge on the table, so for a one roll bet, how do you figure that out? Surely there are combinations which could at least raise the wager to risk the entire bankroll, which looking at it from a players perspective is worse.

Quote:

What could be better than a guaranteed winner for the casino??!!

I'm no hi- falootin game designer [ : )], nor casino mogul, but I would think a player that continues to return, many times, year after year and helps the dealers afford their daily bread might be more valuable then a one off? Just guessing, but a successful parasite doesn't kill the host.

I put the dealers "in the game" on every even point number for hours, and several odd #'s. btw. There are few craps dealers in the stores where I play that don't know me by name.

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Now that being said, consider this: You're a newbie who decides to play this DO/DON'T system you heard about. Unfortunately, you don't realize it should also be played with odds. You barely know anything about craps let alone odds and there's no spot on the table marked "odds bet". You play your flat bets for a few hours and the dealers never mention odds. Surprisingly you lose. As a matter of fact, you're never ahead. Later, you tell your math weenie friend about it...

Well you know what they say, "the odds are good but the goods are odd" : ), and if that was an offer, I accept. Nobody seems to understand me either. But if we are going to be friends, you are going to have to stop trying to confuse me with facts and logic.

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Your face turns red as you realize the casino let you play a guaranteed losing method.

They are all losing methods when I play them, that's not even the problem. I can't hit a moving target, even with a rubber Elvis in one hand and a plastic Jesus in the other. [hey this Elvis will go well with the rubber Shrek collection btw]

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You call the gaming control board to complain that you were cheated. Do you have a case? In Vegas? In Jersey? Indian casino? Maybe, maybe not ... something to consider.

No, it would have to be worse than beating me out of few bucks, I roll with the punches. I did however last time I played there get to render an opinion to the floor and help convince them to roll the tape back for a player who didn't get payed on a hard 8 that landed. It was pretty exciting.

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Maybe the floor was just protecting the casino from accusations of cheating.

Thanks for that thought, an interesting take for sure. In my OP I stated that I had already played through a point of 6 and wanted to ride the ATS out to the end. I looked at being told about making a constant pass bet as potentially paying another "vig" for my original ATS bet. I don't think that is fair, which led me here to posit the OP.

On the remote possibility they are indeed that clever, I am at more of a dis advantage then I realized.

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If such was the case then wouldn't it be better if he'd explained the real reason you need to play odds rather than "skin in the game"?

I never noticed them being that concerned about players making stupid bets in the past.

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But then, perhaps I'm giving him too much credit for trying to protect you by way of protecting the casino.

Yep you are, if he were looking out for the casino they would figure out the bet the way it was designed, in case they do get a litigious player. IMHO

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You have to remember that the casino is a business and like any business has to protect its interests and try to maximize its profits (oh how evil!) There's a tremendous cost to building an elaborate casino, staffing it with employees, greasing all the right palms, etc. How would you like to make such an investment only to find that your tables fill up with nickel and dime fleas who belong in the dive down the street? (Not that I'm implying you're a flea!)

Of course not. They have the option of raising the table minimum to any amount that they feel will keep the undesirables away. I may be a flea bettor, but I am a George tipper, which helps the casino keep competent dealers from moving on.

IMHO, which matters less than the vig on a free buy bet, the casinos would do better to let a patron win, at least once in a while. I read Cyr's book [ Whale hunt in the desert] and understand that all the players on the floor matter not, it is the whales that the casino's wait for. But this ain't Vegas. These casinos again imo, make their bread on a steady stream of locals that can afford [or not] to blow their pensions, 401k's, and social security stipends along with some sno birds. Not many whales in the Mohave. As a matter of fact, the table limit is 300$ unless it was raised recently. Talk about a flea attractant and whale repellent at the same time.
They don't have near the undesirables down in L town, just a steady stream of lonely depressed pensioners such as myself who want a fair game, and are willing to blow there money in questionable slots.

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Of course it's a moot point if fleas are the only patrons that can be had, but for the sake of argument let's assume they're not. In this case, you have to find some way to ensure that your better patrons can find a place at your table.

I arrived at around 2 pm, and there was one other player, I was the 4th player that day.

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Perhaps a cover charge? A dress code? Minimum bets? These won't guarantee anything but I'll wager they increase the likelihood of weeding out the fleas.

I don't think it's the table minimums that attract the fleas in L town. It seems like there is more of them to attract in Sin City. Funny you mention dress. When I entered after freshening, I noticed I was probably over dressed, in slacks, new New Balance running shoes and my lucky Jimmy Buffet "boat drinks" tee, with a nice sweater. Every one else seemed to be a bit more casual. Not tacky, but casual.

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It may not seem "right" that they ask you to make additional bets, but if they've established a non-arbitrary rule that you must then you must. It doesn't even have to make sense. They could require that you purchase a rubber Elvis from the gift shop and wear a cape!

So are you saying then, they CAN demand a constant place bet [to bet the ATS] even after a point has run it's course and there is a AST working with several numbers of the ATS made? See OP. I was going to wager some place bets after the co, I just at that juncture didn't want a line bet. Still learning.....Elvis rules!

Thanks Steen,,,,, Petro the glyph

Quote: Steen

It may not seem "right" that they ask you to make additional bets, but if they've established a non-arbitrary rule that you must then you must. It doesn't even have to make sense. They could require that you purchase a rubber Elvis from the gift shop and wear a cape!

I'm not sure they can enforce a rule requiring you to make an additional wager in order to keep a previously-booked wager active. The obvious edge case is when you're out of money: if I make a $1 Small bet and a $50 no-4 with my last $52 ($1 vig), and the 4 shows up, I'm broke. The casino can't ask me to buy in for more money (wagering is never compulsory), and they also can't cause me to forfeit my bet (that would make the wager fall underneath the required 75% payback). I'd be very interested in whether a casino actually tried to enforce a rule under this circumstance, and what the regulators would have to say about it.

Quote: MathExtremist

I'm not sure they can enforce a rule requiring you to make an additional wager in order to keep a previously-booked wager active. The obvious edge case is when you're out of money: if I make a $1 Small bet and a $50 no-4 with my last $52 ($1 vig), and the 4 shows up, I'm broke. The casino can't ask me to buy in for more money (wagering is never compulsory), and they also can't cause me to forfeit my bet (that would make the wager fall underneath the required 75% payback). I'd be very interested in whether a casino actually tried to enforce a rule under this circumstance, and what the regulators would have to say about it.

The point you raise is very good and I tend to agree with you. However, I think the possibility of such a requirement still exists. My point was that the rules can't be made-up on the fly but rather must be defined and approved in advance. If so, then whether or not they seem logical or "right" is immaterial, they can be enforced.

There's a Texas Hold'em style game I've seen that's played against the house (rather than other players) at a blackjack style table. As I recall, one's initial bet must be increased on the flop, turn, or river or it's forfeited. Is that not requiring an additional wager to keep a previously booked wager alive? Is that any different than this situation?

Steen

I'd say yes, because the rules of that game allow you to either fold or raise (just like actual poker) and the house edge takes all that into account. The rules for ATS say the bets only lose when a 7 is rolled and the edge reflects that. If the rules are changed to allow the bet to lose under other circumstances, the edge will change too. At a minimum, that requires another trip through the approval process.

To answer all of your questins there is only one thing to do, call this number 1-702-486-2000 everybody that set foot in a casino and gambles should have in on their cell phone.

Of course the number is for gaming, you will be suprised at how fast what they are telling you at the table can change when you tell them who you are calling!

I've used it a few times, and it works miracles!

The only problem you have petroglyph is you are plying at a indian casino where they can do anything they want to!

Now you might want to check these out!

https://fortress.wa.gov/wsgc/etransfer/OnlineServices/activities/ViewGameRule.cshtml?gid=26&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

http://www.nj.gov/oag/ge/docs/TempRegs/bonuscrapstext.pdf

http://edgevegas.com/statistical-breakdown-of-new-craps-bets/

I don't know about the rules at other casinos but this is my experience:

Caesars Palace: you can bet the Firebet WITHOUT any other bet.

Harrah's Rincon: you can bet the Firebet WITHOUT any other bet.

Bellagio: I don't know if this is the official rule or not, but once when I played in the late night with only ONE other shooter, he made only the STA bets while I was shooting, and when he shot he made the STA bets plus regular passline and box numbers. Every other time I've played there anyone who was betting the STA also had at least a passline bet. Again, I don't know what the official rule is.

I've seen Fire Bet with no other bet, but one casino with a unique rule was you had to make an initial PL or Don't to FB, but you didn't have to keep it going after the first resolution.

Quote: superrick

To answer all of your questins there is only one thing to do, call this number 1-702-486-2000 everybody that set foot in a casino and gambles should have in on their cell phone.

Of course the number is for gaming, you will be suprised at how fast what they are telling you at the table can change when you tell them who you are calling!

I've used it a few times, and it works miracles!

The only problem you have petroglyph is you are plying at a indian casino where they can do anything they want to!

Now you might want to check these out!

https://fortress.wa.gov/wsgc/etransfer/OnlineServices/activities/ViewGameRule.cshtml?gid=26&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

http://www.nj.gov/oag/ge/docs/TempRegs/bonuscrapstext.pdf

http://edgevegas.com/statistical-breakdown-of-new-craps-bets/

Thanks for the links Rick, don't know why I hadn't seen them until now?

I am glad they put a bonus bet somewhere near Laughlin, and I hope this gives the others incentive to do so as well.

Quote: Mission146

I've seen Fire Bet with no other bet, but one casino with a unique rule was you had to make an initial PL or Don't to FB, but you didn't have to keep it going after the first resolution.

This makes sense to me.

Once at Caesars a player had to leave the table with two Fire bet passes already made. He colored up and went to his show. The floor told him if the Firebet hit they'd keep it for him and to check back later.

Four points were made and they kept the chips on the side for the player to get later.