Why Have a Come Out Phase?
Poll
 | 21 votes (87.5%) | ||
| | 1 vote (4.16%) | ||
| | 2 votes (8.33%) |
24 members have voted
July 7th, 2014 at 3:51:34 PM
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The poll is a bit tongue-in-cheek. (I screwed up in casting my vote. I meant "not needed.")
My question is serious. The Come Out phase unnecessarily complicates the game. Most bets are off during it, and its payouts are insignificant for most players. Yes, PL players have the advantage, but what kind of advantage is that?
Let's do away with the Come Out phase. Let's start with establishing the point. It could still be called the Come Out, for that's what the first roll of dice is. If the 7, 11, or craps numbers show, irrelevant. The craps & 11 are irrelevant, anyway, after point is set. Only the 7 becomes relevant after a point is set. The prop bets would still be as they are. This would simplify the game, speed it up, and make it much more interesting.
The Come Out phase bores me to tears. I'm anticipating that negative comments come from, "But, we've always done it this way." What are your thoughts?
My question is serious. The Come Out phase unnecessarily complicates the game. Most bets are off during it, and its payouts are insignificant for most players. Yes, PL players have the advantage, but what kind of advantage is that?
Let's do away with the Come Out phase. Let's start with establishing the point. It could still be called the Come Out, for that's what the first roll of dice is. If the 7, 11, or craps numbers show, irrelevant. The craps & 11 are irrelevant, anyway, after point is set. Only the 7 becomes relevant after a point is set. The prop bets would still be as they are. This would simplify the game, speed it up, and make it much more interesting.
The Come Out phase bores me to tears. I'm anticipating that negative comments come from, "But, we've always done it this way." What are your thoughts?
July 7th, 2014 at 4:06:38 PM
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The come out phase is what gives the line bet its fairly attractive HA.
It would be interesting to see a calculation of what the HA on a PL bet would be under your scenario.
It would be interesting to see a calculation of what the HA on a PL bet would be under your scenario.
"What, me worry?"
July 7th, 2014 at 4:16:25 PM
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Sonny,
I cancelled out your error. I think the C/O is needed because the subsequent path of the hand is determined there. I don't play enough to have a detailed opinion, but I like it.
I cancelled out your error. I think the C/O is needed because the subsequent path of the hand is determined there. I don't play enough to have a detailed opinion, but I like it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
July 7th, 2014 at 4:30:28 PM
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Quote: Sonny44What are your thoughts?
It would kill the house advantage if you did away with the come out, at least for savvy gamblers.
Suppose instead of placing a pass line bet, dice were thrown to establish the point and then players could place a line bet and odds. For starters many people would not choose to play the 4 and 10 (or the 6 and 8 for DP players). Of course this is easily avoided by merely:
1) requiring a pass line bet
2) not paying the pass line for 7 or 11
3) not taking the pass line bet for 3, 2 and 12
4) eqyually appropriate actions for don't pass.
But then the game would be poorer for players, too much like Crapless Craps.
I often get bored on the come out, and exasperated when it alternates between 7/11 wins and 2/3/12 losses. Hell, I even get bored when someone throws 4 or 5 paying come outs in a row (I don't complain, you understand, but I do get bored; and I didn't say "stop"). That's when playing with friends come in handy: you can chat to relieve the boredom.
IMO craps is just right the way it is. I wouldn't even advocate paying real odds on all bets, as that would kill the game.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
July 7th, 2014 at 4:36:49 PM
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Last week I had 9 PL winners in 13 throws making just 2 points. Without the 7/11 come out roll winners it wouldn't have been a great result but with the 5 7s and 2 11s it was a profitable roll for me and other PL players.
No changes necessary. I like the 2 to 1 advantage on the come out roll just the way it is!
No changes necessary. I like the 2 to 1 advantage on the come out roll just the way it is!
July 7th, 2014 at 6:12:02 PM
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Without the come out the player would lose 60% of the time. Brilliant!!!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
July 7th, 2014 at 6:22:41 PM
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If the come out phase bores you to death, why make it even more boring? I don't really care for the come out roll(s) either, but, I do like the idea that you can still win. I think it would make the game just plain weird. 2,3,11, and 12 would do nothing for the game at that point. Sure you could keep the hop bets but those are terrible bets anyways. Maybe people would turn into dark side players?
July 7th, 2014 at 6:38:50 PM
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DeMango: Wait a minute. Are you saying what one wins during come out is enough to overcome losses after 7 out? I'm a PL bettor & I swear that I haven't entered point set phase up or down much more than 2 reds. Yes, you can come up with infrequent instances of success, but those don't, to my mind, justify going thru a ridiculous, boring come out phase.
In all the threads/posts I've read on this & another forum, there is only one player I'm aware of, who uses the come-out to some kind of "advantage" for his particular style of play, with widely varying results.
I do appreciate the feedback I'm getting re: this question. Thanks.
In all the threads/posts I've read on this & another forum, there is only one player I'm aware of, who uses the come-out to some kind of "advantage" for his particular style of play, with widely varying results.
I do appreciate the feedback I'm getting re: this question. Thanks.
July 7th, 2014 at 6:48:02 PM
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Quote: befamous7If the come out phase bores you to death, why make it even more boring? I don't really care for the come out roll(s) either, but, I do like the idea that you can still win. I think it would make the game just plain weird. 2,3,11, and 12 would do nothing for the game at that point. Sure you could keep the hop bets but those are terrible bets anyways. Maybe people would turn into dark side players?
Well, the 7, 11, & craps numbers could still be bet in the prop bets. I don't know what you mean by "hopping" those numbers. Don't players could still do their thing. All I'm saying is let's just start the game after a point is set. That's the only change. All other betting would be the same. Same table, same bets, etc.
Of course, waiting for a point set could be boring, too, but isn't that what happens in the come-out, anyway? The action really starts after point set, not on come out.
July 7th, 2014 at 7:07:06 PM
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Quote: MrVThe come out phase is what gives the line bet its fairly attractive HA. It would be interesting to see a calculation of what the HA on a PL bet would be under your scenario.
I don't see where it would be much different. The HA really comes into play after point set. You reduce that by placing odds on your PL, which you can do only after point set. If you are referring to the "advantage" a player has against the house on the C/O, again, I ask, What kind of advantage is that? To me, nothing. I doubt any of my sessions were won or lost on how I did during C/O rolls. They were all won/lost after point set. Yes, after losing on a 7 Out, it's nice to get a few shekels back on the following C/O, but small comfort.
Maybe I need to wise up on the advantages of the C/O, because, so far, I see none.
July 7th, 2014 at 7:11:01 PM
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Quote: Sonny44Well, the 7, 11, & craps numbers could still be bet in the prop bets. I don't know what you mean by "hopping" those numbers. Don't players could still do their thing. All I'm saying is let's just start the game after a point is set. That's the only change. All other betting would be the same. Same table, same bets, etc.
Of course, waiting for a point set could be boring, too, but isn't that what happens in the come-out, anyway? The action really starts after point set, not on come out.
Hop bets are the one time bets in the middle of the table for 2,3,11,12. They're some of the worst bets on a craps table.
I agree the action is started after the point is set. I simply think voiding numbers on the come out roll takes a lot away from the game. I can't describe it exactly, but it seems foolish to have a game with dice when some of the combinations mean nothing.
July 7th, 2014 at 7:34:25 PM
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Quote: befamous7Hop bets are the one time bets in the middle of the table for 2,3,11,12. They're some of the worst bets on a craps table.
I agree the action is started after the point is set. I simply think voiding numbers on the come out roll takes a lot away from the game. I can't describe it exactly, but it seems foolish to have a game with dice when some of the combinations mean nothing.
How can you hop those numbers? They are horn numbers. You can only hop the 7, along w/ the point numbers. Of course, there are the C/E bets. (Maybe I'm screwed up on hop/horn bets, as well. I don't make those bets.)
They're still alive under my proposal. I suppose those who want more chances to hit those numbers like the C/O, and that could be a valid excuse, but for PL, DPL, Place bettors, it's boring.
July 7th, 2014 at 7:36:24 PM
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Quote: Sonny44
Maybe I need to wise up on the advantages of the C/O, because, so far, I see none.
So you'd give up 8 chances to win (six 7s, two 11s) and only 4 (two 3s, 2, 12) chances to lose? If this was the case, very few people would play the pass - they'd all be on the don't. Pass line has the big advantage on the come out roll, then the advantage changes to the don't pass. Where would the incentive be found to play the pass as opposed to the don't?
If government is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
July 7th, 2014 at 7:44:06 PM
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How do you establish a point without a come out roll?Quote: Sonny44Let's start with establishing the point. It could still be called the Come Out, for that's what the first roll of dice is.
Why does it bore you to tears? Is it because you don't make pass (or don't pass) bets? Is that the problem? Is it that you don't like all your other bets to be off during the come out roll?
News flash: You can request that they remain working.
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July 7th, 2014 at 7:52:55 PM
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Quote: DaddydocSo you'd give up 8 chances to win (six 7s, two 11s) and only 4 (two 3s, 2, 12) chances to lose? If this was the case, very few people would play the pass - they'd all be on the don't. Pass line has the big advantage on the come out roll, then the advantage changes to the don't pass. Where would the incentive be found to play the pass as opposed to the don't?
What do those measly wins mean? I don't know what the average length of a C/O roll is. For me, I'd say, up to 5, maybe 6 rolls before point set. Even then, that's rare. A few 7s & 11s, a few craps, are meaningless in terms of wins/losses.
As to where the advantage would be after point set with PL vs. DPL, isn't that the way it is, anyway? I'm not a don't player, but all I've read on this & other forums is that don't players don't fare that well vs. do players, anyway, despite the "advantage" they have after point set. The only thing I see where the casinos make money is that they take ALL of our losses, plus a percentage of our wins. Whether a player is do or don't, the advantage is still to the house.
July 7th, 2014 at 8:01:59 PM
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Sounds like you just want an odds bet without a pass line bet, which I don't think exists. Why don't you just buy/place numbers if that's your thing and have them working on every roll? If you aren't worried about the "measly" come-out wins, then the vig on the buys shouldn't matter too much.
If government is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
July 7th, 2014 at 8:04:12 PM
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Quote: Sonny44
What do those measly wins mean? I don't know what the average length of a C/O roll is. For me, I'd say, up to 5, maybe 6 rolls before point set. Even then, that's rare. A few 7s & 11s, a few craps, are meaningless in terms of wins/losses.
If you were playing a 100 dollar minimum table, is the c/o that meaningless then? Three passline winners in a row is 300 +, that's a lot of 1-3 hour sessions that most players would strive for on a 10 dollar min table, and all that can can be done in less than 2 minutes and a total of 3 throws. What I am trying to say is that NOT everyone places the minimum 10/15/25 dollar bet on the passline... And we all know the don't with odds and the do with odds are the best bets you can make at the table.
So to me the passline is very much not meaningless!
July 7th, 2014 at 8:49:14 PM
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Quote: nickolay411If you were playing a 100 dollar minimum table, is the c/o that meaningless then? Three passline winners in a row is 300 +, that's a lot of 1-3 hour sessions that most players would strive for on a 10 dollar min table, and all that can can be done in less than 2 minutes and a total of 3 throws. What I am trying to say is that NOT everyone places the minimum 10/15/25 dollar bet on the passline... And we all know the don't with odds and the do with odds are the best bets you can make at the table.
So to me the passline is very much not meaningless!
If the guy walks after his 3 PL wins during C/O, good for him. Depends on what he's after in playing the game. It's still meaningless if he's after more, and on a $100 table, I'd assume he would be. Doesn't matter how much you put on the PL during C/O. What does matter is what you expect after point set & before 7 out. Probably his winning $300 means no more to him than me winning $15 on 3 consecutive PL bets w/ a $5 bet.
July 7th, 2014 at 9:06:56 PM
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If 2,3,7,11,12 do nothing, then I sure as shit am gonna be on the DP.
Again, as said before, the HE on the PL is low because of the possibility to win/lose on the C/O (and starts with an advantage during the C/O then shifts to disadvantage once the point is set).
I suspect the reason why you think it's a "measly" win is because you're betting so much more on your odds. But those have no edge. You've mixed house edge with variance.
Again, as said before, the HE on the PL is low because of the possibility to win/lose on the C/O (and starts with an advantage during the C/O then shifts to disadvantage once the point is set).
I suspect the reason why you think it's a "measly" win is because you're betting so much more on your odds. But those have no edge. You've mixed house edge with variance.
July 7th, 2014 at 11:25:45 PM
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There used to be a version of dice I saw in the Netherlands where you just bet on the next roll of the dice and got paid accordingly. Players kept rolling until they threw a seven and then the next player threw. I don't think it had a "Pass"/"Come" concept. So I guess there's a game there somewhere.
July 8th, 2014 at 7:05:04 AM
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1) Why get mad over a simple question or a difference in taste for bets?
2) In bubble craps you can skip betting on the come out roll if other people are playing (you can shoot only if you have a line bet on when it's your turn). After the point is set, you can place a pass line bet with odds and it will pay the same as if you'd made it before the come out established the point. I discovered this accidentally when I missed mkaing a pass line bet. This is the only way I know which allows to play pass line with odds without playing the come out.
2.1) Bubble craps, alas, limits you to 2X odds.
3) Hop bets are one-roll bets on pairs of numbers. You can bet anything from 1-1 to 6-6 (Not necessarily doubles,a s you can bet 6-4, 1-6, etc). I forget the pays and the HE, but the latter is rather big. Many tables don't mark them, some have only dots to indicate their existence. Most casinos will place them. In Bubble craps you access them by tapping the sign saying "Hop Bets Open."
4) There are any number of other one-shot bets, including any craps, any seven, C, E, C&E. I usually stay away from them.
5) As far as I know you can keep any bet working at the come out roll.
2) In bubble craps you can skip betting on the come out roll if other people are playing (you can shoot only if you have a line bet on when it's your turn). After the point is set, you can place a pass line bet with odds and it will pay the same as if you'd made it before the come out established the point. I discovered this accidentally when I missed mkaing a pass line bet. This is the only way I know which allows to play pass line with odds without playing the come out.
2.1) Bubble craps, alas, limits you to 2X odds.
3) Hop bets are one-roll bets on pairs of numbers. You can bet anything from 1-1 to 6-6 (Not necessarily doubles,a s you can bet 6-4, 1-6, etc). I forget the pays and the HE, but the latter is rather big. Many tables don't mark them, some have only dots to indicate their existence. Most casinos will place them. In Bubble craps you access them by tapping the sign saying "Hop Bets Open."
4) There are any number of other one-shot bets, including any craps, any seven, C, E, C&E. I usually stay away from them.
5) As far as I know you can keep any bet working at the come out roll.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
July 8th, 2014 at 8:15:56 AM
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That is absurd. Slot players always want more bonus rounds.Quote: Sonny44The Come Out phase bores me to tears.
Well, the Come Out Roll is the game of Craps. IF a point is established, that just means that you've qualified for the Bonus Round in which you try to re-make your point.
July 8th, 2014 at 8:24:27 AM
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Would the casino still make money on craps if they paid the true odds to every bet?
July 8th, 2014 at 8:32:23 AM
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Thanks, everyone, for your feedback. The poll shows, backed by a lot of good comments, that the C/O is here to stay. As FleaStiff says, "Well, the Come Out Roll is the game of Craps." I'm not sure everyone understands what I'm saying, but I'm letting that go. I've realized that you really can't do away w/ all those rolls/numbers that occur before point is set. I can see that there's still a C/O phase, even if my suggestion were adopted. So, why not let people bet on them?
For me, case is closed. Guess I should have thought this thru before starting this thread, because the answer, as I see it, is pretty obvious, now.
For me, case is closed. Guess I should have thought this thru before starting this thread, because the answer, as I see it, is pretty obvious, now.
July 8th, 2014 at 8:35:36 AM
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The full-odds game of craps is not played that often by most players. Here's my view of where money is made:
25% hardways (2.78% edge per roll)
25% place five-nine (1.11% edge per roll)
20% place four-ten (0.33% to 1.67% edge per roll)
15% prop bets( 11.11% to 16.67% edge per roll)
10% field (2.78% edge per roll)
5% line bets (0.39% to 0.41% edge per roll)
Line bets and come bets are a tiny fraction of the total money made on the table. If you understand that $5 on the five or the nine place bets makes as much money as $34 on the pass line, and $5 on the four or ten makes as much money as $81 on the pass line, you will understand that the house isn't booking pass line bets to make money. They are booking pass line bets to start up the game.
All of that "come out" BS is just to get the real dopes to give up their cash with place bets after the stick man starts yammering about how good the roll is.
The short answer to "why have a come out phase" is because craps is a game of shills and dopes. Even you guys arguing about taking enough odds are splitting hairs on what kind of shills you are. The real money is made from the dopes.
25% hardways (2.78% edge per roll)
25% place five-nine (1.11% edge per roll)
20% place four-ten (0.33% to 1.67% edge per roll)
15% prop bets( 11.11% to 16.67% edge per roll)
10% field (2.78% edge per roll)
5% line bets (0.39% to 0.41% edge per roll)
Line bets and come bets are a tiny fraction of the total money made on the table. If you understand that $5 on the five or the nine place bets makes as much money as $34 on the pass line, and $5 on the four or ten makes as much money as $81 on the pass line, you will understand that the house isn't booking pass line bets to make money. They are booking pass line bets to start up the game.
All of that "come out" BS is just to get the real dopes to give up their cash with place bets after the stick man starts yammering about how good the roll is.
The short answer to "why have a come out phase" is because craps is a game of shills and dopes. Even you guys arguing about taking enough odds are splitting hairs on what kind of shills you are. The real money is made from the dopes.
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