Confused on buy bet payouts

I was looking through the Wizard's website on the craps odds and payouts, and need some clarification on the buy bet section. I see the 2 following lines for buying the 6 or 8:
Buy 6 & 8 pays 23 to 21, when the commission is always paid.
Buy 6 & 8 pays 23 to 20, when the commission is paid on a win only.

When the commission is always paid, isn't that why the bet =$21? $20 for the bet + $1 up front for the commission?
If so, shouldn't the win amount be $24? Shouldn't it pay 24 to 21?

I'm wondering because that's what I think when I see the 2nd line, and it seems to have a $20 bet with a $23 payout ($24 for the actual payout less the $1 commission charged when the bet wins).

What am I missing?

Edit: the same applies for the 5 & 9, and 4 & 10 buy bets

With vig up front, it costs you $21 when you lose. When you win, you initially put in $21 and you are returned $24 (win) + $20 (bet) = $44, for a net of $23.

I'm only familiar with Las Vegas, but for what it's worth, the only thing you ever buy around here is a four or a ten. I've (very rarely) seen buys on the 5 and 9, but the other buy bets (except for "SHOOT TO WIN" aka "bubble craps") are very rare here.

Quote: Ahigh

I'm only familiar with Las Vegas, but for what it's worth, the only thing you ever buy around here is a four or a ten. I've (very rarely) seen buys on the 5 and 9, but the other buy bets (except for "SHOOT TO WIN" aka "bubble craps") are very rare here.

I would agree that quote is the practical, real-world advice. Don't Buy anything but the 4 0R 10, if possible avoid paying a commission up front, but remember its likely to be charged when you win.

For the math involved, sure go to a craps machine, but at a real world table with live dealers, they will probably tell you its better for you to Buy the 4 and 10 and to PLACE the 5 and 9 as well as the 6 and 8. If they don't tell you this its probably a fast table.

OK, so is the website wrong, then? Similar payouts are listed for the 4 and 10, so lets look at those...

It says buying the 4 and 10, when vig has to be paid up front, will pay 39 to 21;
and when buying the 4 & 10 with vig paid only when it wins is 39 to 20.

I believe the 2nd one, pays 39 to 20 when vig paid on a win, but the first line looks to me like it should be 40 to 21? $1 vig paid up front then 2:1 when it wins. Should it be 40:21 or 39:21?

P.S. Believe me, the only numbers I would buy are the 4 and 10, but I'm just looking at the math on a chart from a website, and it just looks like something is off. It's about 2/3 of the way down on: wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

For a $20 buy bet on the 4/10, vig paid only on the win, you are only putting $20 at risk. Therefore, the payout must be “to 20”. If it wins, you are paid $40 less the $1 vig, or “39 to 20.”

If the vig is paid up front, you have put $21 at risk, so the payout is “to 21.” If it wins, you are paid $40 on the $20 you had on the felt, but you must deduct that $1 you paid up front. You won a net $39 (just as in the paragraph above), but in this case it was “39 to 21.”

Ratio of the net win on a win to the total loss if you had lost.

$10 buy on 4. $1 up front (so bet is $11). Payout is $20. Since they're keeping the bet up, they charge you another $1 (pay up front for next roll).

Quote: Doc

If the vig is paid up front, you have put $21 at risk, so the payout is “to 21.” If it wins, you are paid $40 on the $20 you had on the felt, but you must deduct that $1 you paid up front.

This only applies if one is trying to calculate the ev or house edge of the bet

The Wizard's table says
PAYS

Quote: Doc

Ratio of the net win on a win to the total loss if you had lost.

sure, only useful if computing the ev or the house edge
But for PAYS, I also agree the bet PAYS 40 to 21.

In my opinion here, JB and / or the Wizard have attempted to simplify this as a one fits all value.
(This was also done in the Craps Games V2)
It does not in my opinion
sure, here is my proof

B = Bet (NOT total $ given to the Dealer)

first example
The *PAYS* on a winning Hard 6
9 to 1
or
9*B to 1*B (divide both sides of *to* by B and get 9*1 to 1*1 or 9 to 1)

The *PAYS* on a winning Buy 4 vig paid up front (probably the most common found on this planet Earth)
pays 2*B duh
$ given to dealer = B + (B*.05) remember for this $20 Buy 4 fits all example

2*B to B + (B*.05)
now (B*.05) = B/20
(B*(5/100))

2*B to B + B/20
multiply each term by 20

2*B*20 to 20*B + (B/20)*20 =
40B to 20B +B =
40B to 21B
and
divide both side by B (see the first example)
40 to 21
so also
40/21 to 1

still this $20 fits all example

more work could be done on this to make the Wizard of Odds Buy Bets the LAST words on Buy bets :)

just my opinions
Sally

The problem I see here is that responses tend to "Chain" the event. $21 on the 4 pays $40, the $1 is taken from the $21. The return is 60 for 21. When one loses this bet there are two outcomes;
A.) The entire $21 is forfeit (standard commission rule)
B.) The $20 bet is lost, with the $1 commission returned (Commission when you win)

When in outcome A the risk is $21 and the return is zero for $21.
When in outcome B the risk is $20 and the return is $1 for $21.

This is how the "buy behind" works on either the 6 or 8. The player tosses in a $25 chip or any multiples therein. The base dealer sets up a $24 be behind the number the player has chosen and places a "lammer" on top of the bet that says "LAY" and $1 goes to the house to pay the "vig". This way the "sky" can ascertain the exact type of wager it is at a glance. If the shooter 7's out before the target number is rolled, the base dealer pays out $20 for every $24 bet and the payoff and the original $24 are returned to the player. So if you're going to buy behind or lay the 6 or 8 do it in units of $25.

Quote: rudeboy99

This is how the "buy behind" works on either the 6 or 8. The player tosses in a $25 chip or any multiples therein. The base dealer sets up a $24 be behind the number the player has chosen and places a "lammer" on top of the bet that says "LAY" and $1 goes to the house to pay the "vig". This way the "sky" can ascertain the exact type of wager it is at a glance. If the shooter 7's out before the target number is rolled, the base dealer pays out $20 for every $24 bet and the payoff and the original $24 are returned to the player. So if you're going to buy behind or lay the 6 or 8 do it in units of $25.

Until you get to winning more than $50, the sweet spots are laying to win $25 or to win $50. For the five or nine, the target are to win $24 or $50 since you want to win an even amount of money. I don't know of a single place that rounds up the vig on $25 or $50 wins on the lay, and this is the best target number to save that $0.25 to win $25 or $0.50 to win $50 for all the math-oriented dollar-store folks on here pinching every last penny that you possibly can while you bet ten times as much as everyone else on the $3 to $5 table where you're playing.

Also, with vig on the win as you will get at even a Harrah's casino on the 4 or the 10 (they are up front on the 5, 6, 8, and 9) you get a very low cost for a great chance to win at 1.33% for the sweet spot with vig on the win. All MGM, the Rio for sure (just checked last night), possibly all Harrah's even, you can get vig on the win for laying the four an ten.

(I've never heard the term "buy behind" and it sounds like setting a dealer up for a crude joke frankly).

The exact phrase I use that works everywhere is "I want to lay the 6 for $30" -- I then give the dealer $31 and he sets me up for a $30 lay with vig up front. Any place you're lucky enough to get vig on the win, they toss back your buck is all, and will take it out of your pay. Vig on the win is on all lay bets at the triple seven (just verified a few weeks ago), and Fiesta Henderson. It's a VERY rare thing to find vig on the win for 5, 6, 8, and 9 for whatever reason.

But about using the word, "buy" to describe a lay bet, using the word "buy" in any way shape or form is bound to confuse at least SOME dealers, and dealers are more unfamiliar with lay bets than ANY other bet. Avoiding the use of the word "buy" is critical.

I have had dealers not knowing what lammer to put on top even after being instructed. More often they put an "off" lammer on top in error than a buy lammer in error.

When you get to where you do these bets a lot, you will find out what a rare bet it is in some places. Even some places on the strip with very experienced dealers you will have the box helping the dealer set you up. Or possibly charging the wrong vig in some cases not returning the right amount of change if you don't figure it out for them and give them the exact amount up front that they need to set you up. Knowing the vigs yourself and having plenty of singles saves a ton of time!

Quote: Ahigh

Dealers are more unfamiliar with lay bets than ANY other bet.

How true! And if you have simultaneous DC bets behind the line and ask the dealer to "take down my lay bet," the DC's often come down, too. Even after that advantageous position was won over 2-to-1 odds.

Quote: Ahigh

When you get to where you do these bets a lot, you will find out what a rare bet it is in some places. Even some places on the strip with very experienced dealers you will have the box helping the dealer set you up. Or possibly charging the wrong vig in some cases not returning the right amount of change if you don't figure it out for them and give them the exact amount up front that they need to set you up. Knowing the vigs yourself and having plenty of singles saves a ton of time!

So Very True. I live on the 4 and 10. Often get a snide remark or sideways look from a dealer when I ask for 2 stacks of singles to begin a session. Always have a discussion with the box over where the break points are on vig, ($4 VIG AT $65 OR AT $70) Having that rack of singles lets me make the dealers job a little easier and allows me to make sue my money is paid correctly that much quicker.