Craps No More craps variant - Ask The Wizard

Yesterday I bought into a craps table at the El Dorado (in Shreveport, LA), and quickly noticed that in addition to the usual 4-5-6-8-9-10 points, there were equally sized squares for 2-3-11-12 and no spaces for Don’t Pass and Don’t Come. With the exception of these changes, there was no indication that this game was in anyway different from traditional craps. (The little sign that posts odds and min\max bet was labeled “Craps No More”, but that was it). I had picked this table because it was much less crowded than the two traditional tables, so I decided to go ahead and play – but bet very conservatively. Even though I was up nicely, I left after the shooter crapped out when the point was 2 after having made the previous two points. Other details are posted on the El Dorado website (see below). It says something that craps players were avoiding this table. But maybe they, like me, are just fans of the traditional game and don’t like change?

Like many craps players (I assume), the only way I am going to do really well is if a shooter makes the points several times, and having 2-3-11-12 available as points would seem to significantly reduces the odds of this happening. Not to mention the odds on the Pass Line.

It appears that this game has been around since 2002, and a posting I found () calculated that this upped the house edge from 1.414% to 5.382%, but I would love the Wizards take on this.

So my questions are: How common is this game? Just how bad an idea is it to play it?

If the table is consistently less crowded than regular craps, it would seem to me that Craps No More could attract inexperienced players that may not even notice the difference. And the name “Craps No More” could indicate that The House was somehow doing the players “a favor”. This may all fall under the “If you walk into a Casino with no idea what you are doing, then too bad” heading, but it still bothered me a bit.

Craps No More as explained on the El Dorado website:

• Though very similar to traditional Craps, Craps No More has a few unique variations. The first difference you may notice is that there is no "Don't Pass" or "Don't Come." In addition, your come-out points include the traditional 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, but also the 2, 3, 11, and 12. The rules of play are very simple - on a come-out roll, SEVEN WINS! Any other number rolls and it becomes your point! Then you continue to win as any number rolls until you make your point or until a seven rolls..

Aside from that, all the other standard rules apply. The game offers traditional "Prop" bets, "Hardways," "Come" bets with true odds, "Place" bets, "Buy" bets, and "Lay" bets with the standard 5% vigorish (commission) charged.

New Odds Payoffs

Pass Line and Come Bets
2 & 12: Odds pay 6 to 1
3 & 11: Odds pay 3 to 1

100x Odds still apply - up to a $2,000 Maximum Bet

New Place Bets
2 & 12: Odds pay 11 to 2. Minimum bets are $6 (on a $5 table) and $10 (on a $10 table). Bets can be increased by $2 increments.
Example: $6 pays $33; $8 pays $44; and so on.

3 & 11: Odds pay 11 to 4. Minimum bets are $8 (on a $5 table) and $12 (on a $10 table). The bets can be increased by $4 increments.
Example: $8 pays $22; $12 pays $33; and so on.

"Extreme Outside" Place Bets - 2, 3, 11, 12

I've heard this game called "Never Ever Craps". The only table I can recall seeing in Las Vegas in the past year is at Vegas Club downtown but it was recently dropped to 2x odds and rarely open.

So how is this different from Crapless Craps, which has been around for years and is discussed on the Wizard of Odds site as just another gimmick game that should be avoided? Sounds as if it might be a rip-off of the older game.

I read the OP and agree with Doc. Sounds very similar to crapless craps and is popular at the Stratosphere in Vegas. The gist behind the game is that you lose more from having a point as 2,3,11,12 than when you would have crapped out or won on an 11.

You crap out when a 2,3,12 rolls on the come out, you seven out when the button/lammer is "on" and a seven rolls. Even if other people say that you "crap out" when a seven rolls, think about it, what makes more sense? "Seven out" or "crap out" (when craps is explicitly 2,3,12 in this game) when a seven is rolled.

OK, I had never heard of Crapless Craps, and this would appear to the be the same game with a different name. Thanks for the help. The advice of, "Avoid gimmicks" remains a good rule to follow.

It IS the same game.

The patent on the design expired, but the trademark on the name lives on. Solution: new name.

Read the Wizard's info about it:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/#craplesscraps

They still have Crapless Craps at the Las Vegas Club and Plaza in downtown LV. Only open during Fri/Sat normally, but not if there is a small crowd. Usually they are set as $10 tables which make it rough if you play reds. But overall, nice odds for the extreme outsides and fun fun fun. Don't mind the quick sucking of your wallet on cold cold stormy nights.

They also offer it at Sam's Town Shreveport, IIRC.

I play it every time I go to El Dorado, but I know it is a gimmick.

This last trip, I lost on the NC Craps, but did well on the traditional craps there and at Horseshoe.

I always get treated very well at El Dorado, which is why I keep coming back.