jagreenm
jagreenm
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February 7th, 2014 at 7:54:11 AM permalink
Last night at the Seminole Hard Rock Casino in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, I was playing Organic's Craps/Sic-Bo machine. The machine has an idiosyncrasy in the way it calculates winnings. If you bet $10 on the pass-line, an even money bet, when the bet wins, the machine says that you won $20. In actuality, you won $10 and received your original $10 bet back. I always figured this was just a semantic thing and didn't pay any attention to it until last night.

I had a $75 pass-line bet on the 8 with $375 odds. I also had $40 on the hard 8. The 8 came hard. Total win: $885. Of course, the machine says I won $1375 ($885 in ACTUAL winnings PLUS $75+$375+$40 in my original bets). The machine then froze and wouldn't let me do anything until an attendant came 10 minutes later (after a come out, 2 numbers and then a 7 out... i'm not sure what happened to the money I had on the table during this time but it saved me from losing a 100/500 bet on the next point). The attendant came and gave me a W2G that says I won $1,375.

I didn't win $1375. I won $885 and was returned my $490 in original bets.
sabre
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February 7th, 2014 at 8:00:34 AM permalink
That's how all gaming machines work. There is no error. If you don't like it, take it up with the federal government.
CrystalMath
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February 7th, 2014 at 3:08:57 PM permalink
Unfortunately, you cannot subtract your wager from wins on electronic games. You can for certain gambling, such as sports bets and live keno.
I heart Crystal Math.
tringlomane
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February 7th, 2014 at 3:32:56 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

That's how all gaming machines work. There is no error. If you don't like it, take it up with the federal government.



This.
100xOdds
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February 7th, 2014 at 5:06:16 PM permalink
Quote: jagreenm

Last night at the Seminole Hard Rock Casino in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, I was playing Organic's Craps/Sic-Bo machine. The machine has an idiosyncrasy in the way it calculates winnings. If you bet $10 on the pass-line, an even money bet, when the bet wins, the machine says that you won $20. In actuality, you won $10 and received your original $10 bet back. I always figured this was just a semantic thing and didn't pay any attention to it until last night.

I had a $75 pass-line bet on the 8 with $375 odds. I also had $40 on the hard 8. The 8 came hard. Total win: $885. Of course, the machine says I won $1375 ($885 in ACTUAL winnings PLUS $75+$375+$40 in my original bets). The machine then froze and wouldn't let me do anything until an attendant came 10 minutes later (after a come out, 2 numbers and then a 7 out... i'm not sure what happened to the money I had on the table during this time but it saved me from losing a 100/500 bet on the next point). The attendant came and gave me a W2G that says I won $1,375.

I didn't win $1375. I won $885 and was returned my $490 in original bets.



search my threads, I said the exact same thing.

found out e-Craps is considered a slot machine. anything returned to you over $1200 gets you a w2-g
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
jagreenm
jagreenm
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February 8th, 2014 at 5:32:53 AM permalink
Thanks... so frustrating... need them to legalize actual craps in Florida...
DeMango
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February 8th, 2014 at 6:14:30 AM permalink
Quote: jagreenm

Thanks... so frustrating... need them to legalize actual craps in Florida...



I come within 5 miles of the Hard Rock and drive the additional 7 hours to Biloxi. You can't beat the games in MS.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
darkoz
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February 8th, 2014 at 7:08:41 AM permalink
There is something wrong with the way this is working where you guys are. This does not happen in New York.

You only get a w2-g after you take the voucher to the cashier who scans it at which time the scan reveals the actual amount of the win. You don't get taxed on your own wager.

Imagine making a don't come bet for $2000(the max at my casino) and a twelve rolls. You push and now have to pay 36% of your own money in taxes?

Or bet $2000 at baccarat and every time there is a tie, they remove 36% of your bet?

It would be impossible for any high roller to ever win at a casino.

Least, I can guarantee that doesn't happen here in New York. I've had plenty of wins over $1400 without a w2g. Any win of over $600 net only gets you a w2g in NYC.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MathExtremist
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February 8th, 2014 at 8:33:17 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Unfortunately, you cannot subtract your wager from wins on electronic games. You can for certain gambling, such as sports bets and live keno.


I've read the W-2G instructions:
Quote:

Report gambling winnings on Form W-2G if:
1. The winnings (not reduced by the wager) are $1,200 or more from a bingo game or slot machine,


but that seems to indicate that a $1500 bet that pushed would result in a W-2G. Or a better example a $100-coin 50 line slot game, costing $5000 per spin, where one line yielded a 20-coin award. The play lost $3000 but you'd still get a W-2G because "taxable winnings" were $2000?

I can't imagine that Congress intended for "putting many thousands of dollars into a gaming machine, then getting more than $1200 back out" to be a taxable event.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
darkoz
darkoz
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February 8th, 2014 at 9:04:24 AM permalink
Yeah, there would be no point in playing a high denom machine. Not even a person who could afford $100 credit machines would play
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxiomOfChoice
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February 8th, 2014 at 9:49:44 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist


but that seems to indicate that a $1500 bet that pushed would result in a W-2G. Or a better example a $100-coin 50 line slot game, costing $5000 per spin, where one line yielded a 20-coin award. The play lost $3000 but you'd still get a W-2G because "taxable winnings" were $2000?

I can't imagine that Congress intended for "putting many thousands of dollars into a gaming machine, then getting more than $1200 back out" to be a taxable event.



This is exactly how it works.

You have to understand that congress is not an expert in pretty much anything. They probably figure that slots are all people betting with pennies and quarters. I'm sure that at the time that this legislation was written, it never occurred to anyone that there were $1000 slot machines.

Note, though, that a W2G does not change how much tax you owe. A W2G just means that the winnings are reported to the government. All gambling winnings are taxable, whether they are reported or not, and you may always itemize your deductions and include your gambling losses. So if you make a $5000 bet on a machine, and lose $3000 and get paid out $2000, the $2000 gets reported, but that doesn't mean that you owe any taxes.

Whether the winnings are reported or not only matters to a tax cheat; to someone who files their taxes honestly it makes no difference, other than the annoyance of additional paperwork, and possibly delays on hand-pays. Although, my understanding is that high-denom machines can be put into a mode where you can continue to play through $1200+ payouts, and all the hand-pays will be made at the end.
teddys
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February 8th, 2014 at 10:39:33 AM permalink
I saw someone playing the $500 machine at Horseshoe Cleveland. Every pay was a taxable. Jesus Christ, how is that fun?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
jagreenm
jagreenm
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February 8th, 2014 at 5:37:15 PM permalink
I guess they only way we get to legally play craps in Florida is for them to call it a slot machine. The downside is it must then comply with slot machine win accounting... which sucks and makes no sense for craps (or any table game substitute).
Frogger
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February 8th, 2014 at 7:54:20 PM permalink
I've seen those machines at Hard Rock. One time there were a couple of guys playing two terminals each. I think that's how they got through the W2G issue. If you played two terminals and split your bet between them, then you wouldn't get a W2G!
Keyser
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February 8th, 2014 at 8:14:26 PM permalink
Solution: Don't put any more thought into the situation and simply cheat elsewhere on your taxes in order to get a fair shake.
beachbumbabs
Administrator
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February 8th, 2014 at 10:36:42 PM permalink
Quote: jagreenm

I guess they only way we get to legally play craps in Florida is for them to call it a slot machine. The downside is it must then comply with slot machine win accounting... which sucks and makes no sense for craps (or any table game substitute).



jagreenm,

If you go on the Victory Casino Cruise out of Port Canaveral, FL, you can play real craps. They have 3 tables, I believe all are $5 minimums. They sail twice a day, 5-6 hour cruises. The Indians can't offer real craps, but the Victory does. It costs $10 to get on.

Victory home page and schedules
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AcesAndEights
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February 10th, 2014 at 10:32:26 AM permalink
In my perfect world, any piece of legislation or tax code that includes a concrete dollar amount would be indexed to inflation. The $1200 limit for W2-Gs was set a long time ago, I think in the early 90s although that is a pretty wild guess. $1200 now is not the same amount of real money as it was back then.
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ViennaPizza
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September 19th, 2022 at 8:08:18 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

In my perfect world, any piece of legislation or tax code that includes a concrete dollar amount would be indexed to inflation. The $1200 limit for W2-Gs was set a long time ago, I think in the early 90s although that is a pretty wild guess. $1200 now is not the same amount of real money as it was back then.
link to original post



Just stumbled upon this dead thread as I almost ate a W2G playing don't come don't pass on e-craps. It was something like $750 bet and $440 win and the taxes alone would have reduced the $440 win to a $200 win (-60% loss)

I found this source for calculating inflation throughout the years. Seems legit.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1990?amount=1

According to the calculator, $1 in 1990 is worth $2.27 in 2022. Which means the $1200 threshold should be raised to $2724. But that's by logic, not politics. Politics is a different story.
ChumpChange
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September 19th, 2022 at 9:10:13 PM permalink
If you go by inflation from the 1970's, it should be at least $5,000. If you look at the jackpot inflation occurring in the casinos, it'd probably be $25,000. The CTR's should be raised to $100,000. If you look at the price of cocaine, well, I've utterly lost track, but how much is 5 kilos these days?

How Much Is A Kilo Of Cocaine In The United States? https://www.arkbh.com/illicit-drugs/cocaine/prices/
A kilogram of cocaine can cost as little as $14,500 in San Diego, California, and as much as $45,000 in Anchorage, Alaska.

In Boston, Massachusetts, one kilo usually costs between $29,000 and $39,000. The same amount costs between $31,000 and $38,000 in Springfield and between $30,000 and $36,500 in Worcester.

Remember when cocaine used to be $100 per gram, so a kilo would be $10,000. If you go by the price of coke, the CTR's should be raised to $30,000.
If you go by the standard tax deduction under the new tax act of a couple years ago, the W-2G's should be raised to $12,000.

Here's what's driven changes in cocaine prices on US streets since the 1980s https://www.businessinsider.com/us-cocaine-prices-change-2016-10
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Sep 19, 2022
Ace2
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September 19th, 2022 at 11:10:27 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange


$100 per gram, so a kilo would be $10,000.

$100,000. A kilogram is 1000 grams.
Itís all about making that GTA
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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September 19th, 2022 at 11:56:43 PM permalink
I just flunked simple drug dealer math. I should watch Miami Vice more with a bead on the word "keys."
Ace2
Ace2
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September 20th, 2022 at 12:41:33 AM permalink
Knowing that kilo/mil is 1000 and centi is 100 is very basic metric. Lots of metric use in the USA.
Itís all about making that GTA
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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September 20th, 2022 at 1:15:23 AM permalink
It just seems odd that coke is $30-$40 a gram last decade and I'm being thrown by the price. That's the dealer price. The user price is like double that.

Anyways, the big banks are having a hard time giving out $5,000 cash to their customers. They only get their cash deliveries once a week so they have to ration their cash. You can pre-order cash for pickup the next week. But if you're a big time gambler trying to get bigger money in and out of banks, it may not work out too well with the cash limits banks are imposing lately.

The Bubble Craps machine near me has a voucher limit of $3K which can be redeemed at the casino. I did see one e-craps machine on YouTube where the player had over $20K in credits on it. So the casino has to get their cash from somewhere, most likely banks, so they may feel the pinch of the banks' cash rationing soon.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Sep 20, 2022
Ace2
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September 20th, 2022 at 10:40:37 AM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange


The Bubble Craps machine near me has a voucher limit of $3K

So $300 ?
Itís all about making that GTA
ViennaPizza
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September 21st, 2022 at 6:18:39 PM permalink
What does cocaine have to do with craps
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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September 21st, 2022 at 8:40:15 PM permalink
Testing the limits of money laundering and taxing authority. Of course, ATMs could just stop dispensing more than $100 a week.

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