Betting after the point is established?

While in Vegas I noticed that the "Shoot to Win" craps machines allow you to make a pass line bet with odds after the point is established ("Shoot to Win Craps" is a machine with large dice in a cylinder that are shot by a shooter who pushes a button. Usually $3-5 minimum). I was wondering if anyone thinks they may be able to exploit this feature? Perhaps you play the pass when the point is 6/8, no play on 5/9 and play the Don't on 4/10. I'm not saying this is a way to beat the casino, I'd just like to see what people think about this. The only reason I bring this up is that I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to do this on the tables. Can someone clarify this for me? I believe they only allow this once when you buy in but after that it's no longer allowed.

Remember, I'm not saying this is a system that will beat casinos. I'm just curious if anyone would like to try it/has tried it/sees any benefit/sees no benefit.

Any casino should let you make a PL+Odds bet after the point has been established, the PL bet itself is at a much greater disadvantage, though the odds work the same, either way.

If you could make a DP bet after the point is established (which I very seriously doubt) you'd have a tremendous edge. You mentioned the 4/10, but the best approach would be to ALWAYS make a DP bet after the point is established with $0.00 on odds because a 0% HE is worse than you are getting being able to bet the DP after a point has been established.

Betting the Pass Line after the point is established is extraordinary stupid regardless of the point number. And yes, they allow this at a live table.

This is called a put bet. It's bad for you, unless you can back it up with 5x,4x or 19+x odds. Better to just place or buy.

In any case, it cannot be taken advantage of.

As Mission pointed out, if you can put the DP, you win.

Maybe, because it's a machine that can pay in pennies, it's actually treating a late DP bet as a Place To Lose.

Actually it's not stupid if you can make an associated serious odds bet. For instance £10 on the 6 with £50 odds (impossible in the UK and the best I've seen is double odds) would pay £10+£60=£70, i.e. the same as making the £60 place bet. Making it with 11x odds is a better bet than the place (10+110 pays 10+132=142, 120 only pays 140), i.e. it halves the HE (true payout should be 144 to 120).

If you can make a Don't Pass (Don't Come) then celebrate - that's why they always seem to call when Don't Come bets go in behind.

It sounds unlikely but maybe I'll see if they allow DP bets after the point is established. I've never heard of the put bet, thanks all.

Quote: charliepatrick

Actually it's not stupid if you can make an associated serious odds bet. For instance £10 on the 6 with £50 odds (impossible in the UK and the best I've seen is double odds) would pay £10+£60=£70, i.e. the same as making the £60 place bet. Making it with 11x odds is a better bet than the place (10+110 pays 10+132=142, 120 only pays 140), i.e. it halves the HE (true payout should be 144 to 120).

If you can make a Don't Pass (Don't Come) then celebrate - that's why they always seem to call when Don't Come bets go in behind.

I agree if the allowable odds are high enough, but I've yet to see a 'Shoot to Win' electronic craps table that offers more than 3x odds although I'm assuming this is configurable and controlled by the casino

Quote: befamous7

I've never heard of the put bet...

For what it's worth, a Place bet is nothing more than a Put bet with pre-set odds.

Quote: MidwestAP

I've yet to see a 'Shoot to Win' electronic craps table that offers more than 3x odds

Same. However, I have only played them at MGM properties.

midwest



I would not agree with that.

Sure the typical school of thought is the best bet is the pass line bet with odds, BUt you also have to look
at what happens after the pass line number is set. The advantage swings greatly to the casino.

I have no idea how many times i have seen a guy have a decent roll and most people win couple hundred or less.
Then the next 7 guys seven out in a row. Everybody lost all they had won.

i dont bet much on anyone for the first couple of rolls....particularly when the table is for crap. I wont even
bet much on myself if my throw is not what i like. On random throwers i dont know i wait a couple of rolls
and place a come bet, and go from there.

If the players are throwing well i may make the come bet right away.

But the pass line bet is no better than many other bets, it has to be hit twice to win once.

dicesetter

Quote: befamous7

I've never heard of the put bet, thanks all.

Put bets are not allowed in AC.

Quote: dicesitter

midwest

I would not agree with that. ...

I'm not sure I understand what you are disagreeing with. I'm taking a position that betting the line after a point is established is a bad idea. In the situation the allowable odds are high enough it can be better than a place bet, but that wasn't the situation the OP was describing.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

For what it's worth, a Place bet is nothing more than a Put bet with pre-set odds.

Except you can remove a place bet. The flat bet portion of a put bet is a contract, just like any other line bet, and can't be removed. Procedurally, making a put bet on the 6 (when 9 is the point) is set up in the box exactly the same way as a come bet followed by a 6 roll. There's no way for the dealer to tell them apart. You should never make a put bet, regardless of the odds multiplier, unless you know you're willing to let it resolve.

Quote: befamous7

While in Vegas I noticed that the "Shoot to Win" craps machines...

Just out of curiosity, which casino in Vegas?

Quote: Beethoven9th

Just out of curiosity, which casino in Vegas?

I saw them everywhere I went, but I played only on the Strip - the Mirage, Venetian, and Caesars come to mind. I never noticed the put bet feature, though, but I'm savvy enough to know not to do put bets unless I plan to put down a fudge-ton of odds, and as a very conservative player playing alongside my borderline fascist wife (with regard to her betting style, not her belief in governing systems,) odds are always very limited for me. Yes, I know it's the best bet in the house. I still play them very cautiously.

If I'm dealing, though, and someone puts down a pass line bet after the point, I IMMEDIATELY call it a place bet unless they back it up with odds right away (and most people who put down pass line bets after the point are ploppies who don't know any more about the game than my cat.) I explain the rule, and almost inevitably, they thank me and accept the bet, although on occasion we'll get the odd Mensa member who decides to INSIST on playing it as an even-money pass line bet - with no odds. Let's just say Vegas was built on the stupidity of people like this guy.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Just out of curiosity, which casino in Vegas?

I've seen them at Mandalay, Luxor, MGM and I know at least 3 other casinos. I just can't remember which casinos...It has "Craps" in big red lights above the machine so it's hard to miss. They're great if you're looking to teach a friend how to play.

sorry i may have misread it, old age you know


dicesetter