Dumb craps questions

I just started craps and am going to Vegas this weekend. I have two quick questions:

1. There's no vig in my local casino. How does vig work in Vegas?

2. I have a friend who said she plays both pass and don't pass and just get free drinks. What keeps a player from doing that if drinking is the goal?

Quote: debitncredit

1. There's no vig in my local casino. How does vig work in Vegas?

There has to be, depending on what type of bet it is. What type of bet are you talking about?

Quote:

2. I have a friend who said she plays both pass and don't pass and just get free drinks. What keeps a player from doing that if drinking is the goal?

The desire to possibly win.

if a 12 rolls she loses.

Quote: Mission146

There has to be, depending on what type of bet it is. What type of bet are you talking about?

The "no vig" came about when someone was talking about getting paid 2 to 1 on 4 and 10 odds. I actually don't even know what a vig is to tell you the truth. Let's start there. What's a vig?

Quote: Mission146

The desire to possibly win.

So... The dealers won't stop me doing that?

Quote: ontariodealer

if a 12 rolls she loses.

Okay.

dealers wont stop you cuz you lose on the 12........vig is what casino's and bookies take from each bet for profit.

Quote: debitncredit

The "no vig" came about when someone was talking about getting paid 2 to 1 on 4 and 10 odds. I actually don't even know what a vig is to tell you the truth. Let's start there. What's a vig?

Vig is commission. If they 2-1 odds on 4 and 10 with no commission, then there is no house edge on those bets.

Quote:

So... The dealers won't stop me doing that?

No, why would they? You can't possibly win and you lose every time a 12 is rolled on the come-out.

Quote: ontariodealer

dealers wont stop you cuz you lose on the 12........vig is what casino's and bookies take from each bet for profit.

It always bothered me of an episode of Las Vegas where it was a big deal with 2 guys betting $500 on each side and "being busted for stealing comps" or however they put it.

Quote: debitncredit

The "no vig" came about when someone was talking about getting paid 2 to 1 on 4 and 10 odds. I actually don't even know what a vig is to tell you the truth. Let's start there. What's a vig?

Okay, the casino could be offering Free Odds on the Buy 4/10 without a Pass Line bet, the only casino that I know of that does that is the Santa Ana Star in New Mexico. I've never heard of that being done anywhere else, and the Santa Ana Star also has a zero-edge Field Bet, which I've never heard of being the case anywhere else.

Mathematically, you should just play the true odds for free on the Buy 4/10 if that is the case where you are going, but it probably won't be, and the Buy 4/10 will be a horrible bet compared to a Line bet.

Anyway, the vig is a percentage of a bet that the casino takes as Commission on a Buy bet in order to pay you the true Odds on the number. If you have to pay the Commission on a win only, then that is better than always paying the Commission, but there is no circumstance in which either of those things are better than a line bet...again...with exception to a Buy bet with no vig whatsoever.

Quote:

So... The dealers won't stop me doing that?

No, you'd be playing in a way that could only lose or break even. There are many casinos that won't rate your play for that, and probably fewer that won't serve you free drinks if you are doing that, (though I imagine most would serve you free drinks) but nobody is going to stop you. They'll think you are drunk already, but nobody is going to stop you.

Do you actually like Craps or do you just want the drinks?

You know, Craps has an expectation of about 48 hands played per hour, so if you have to bet $5 on each Line, then you would be expected to lose about 1.33333 decisions per hour for half of the bet (Don't Pass pushes, Pass loses $5) for an expected hourly loss of about $6.67.

In contrast, even if you play Video Keno for $0.05/card at 800 cards per hour with a return of 90%, you expect to lose: (800 * .05) - (800 * .05 * .9) = $4.00

So, your hourly theoretical loss is a lot better with Video Keno and you actually have some chance of winning something. In addition to that, you could seriously slow play the Keno if you really wanted to, get free drinks, and not even MAKE $6.65 in total bets in one hour, making a loss of anything more than that impossible.

***Video Poker would be better, not actually suggesting you play Keno, just an example.

I mean, unless you're going to be taking/laying Odds in addition to playing the Doey-Don't, or you really just want to be at the Craps table, basically all you are doing is playing a game where you can break even, at best, and you'd kind of be being a pain in the ass and waste of space at the table from the standpoint of other players, to be perfectly honest.

If you really insist on doing that, though, and you have someone with you...why not you have a joint bankroll, but just for the Craps Table, and one of you bets the Pass Line while the other bets the Don't Pass. You guys can see who wins, get the free drinks, definitely have your play rated (if the house rates table minimum play) and have a much better time with the rest of the table being none the wiser.

Quote: Mission146

Okay, the casino could be offering Free Odds on the Buy 4/10 without a Pass Line bet, the only casino that I know of that does that is the Santa Ana Star in New Mexico. I've never heard of that being done anywhere else, and the Santa Ana Star also has a zero-edge Field Bet, which I've never heard of being the case anywhere else.

Do you actually like Craps or do you just want the drinks?.

I do play in New Mexico. Also, x20 odds is the norm around here, I think (at least at the one I go to)

We're going for 2 nights. First night for drinking and second night for gambling, but don't want to pay for drinks on the first night :)

Well, if there are two of you, just find room at the same table and one should play one way while one plays the other.

Again, there are other ways to achieve a lower expected loss per hour, but if shooting the dice and watching others play has value, that will work and nobody will be any the wiser.

Some suggestions:

Learn various craps terms more precisely.

Second, Gamble while sober ... accepting the free drinks .... if you really make some money.... celebrate the next night with more free booze.

Vig is short for Vigorish and is related to what a Loan Shark would charge you instead of being a pure and noble money lender.

So for certain bets the house is standing their paying you off when you win at less than what some pure noble casino would pay.
IF you want to BUY from the casino the right to get paid off at what a mathematically true and noble casino would pay, then the casino will charge you a commission to pay off at the mathematically correct rates for the event taking place.

Simultaneous DO/DON"T betting infuriates some casinos and entertains others. If you are a young attractive female, they won't care much, but in general casinos give "freebies" based on your ACTION and if you (or some alter ego) are going along making equal but opposite bets you are not really risking as much money. So some casinos get persnickety about you "milking" them for comps, but most casinos just smile and realize you ain't putting anything over on them anyway.

20x odds means UP TO TWENTY TIMES you line bet, but its YOU who makes that decision. Some people are at a 20x table but never make an odds bet at all....so they are playing a 0x game even though the casino would allow them to bet up to 20x if they wanted to.

In theory your line bet should be calculated to allow your (Line Bet plus subsequent Odds Bet) to be what you are comfortable with, so that the bulk of your bet is at the "no edge odds bet" and only the smaller, qualifying amount is at the LineBet wherein that House Edge applies.

"Simultaneous DO/DON"T betting infuriates some casinos and entertains others. If you are a young attractive female, they won't care much, but in general casinos give "freebies" based on your ACTION and if you (or some alter ego) are going along making equal but opposite bets you are not really risking as much money. So some casinos get persnickety about you "milking" them for comps, but most casinos just smile and realize you ain't putting anything over on them anyway."

With all due respect, this comment makes no sense to me. Other than the odds bet, the casino has a mathematical edge on every bet and thus simply wants as much action as possible. Whether the money on the DO/DON'T comes from different players or the same player makes absolutely no difference to the math. A player simultaneously playing the pass and don't pass will have substantially lower variance than other players, but from a long term perspective will be giving as much to the casino as someone playing twice the amount on either bet. Simple math.

7-out, line away, pay the don't

FWIW, someone playing a doey don't system has absolutely no chance of winning money (odds bet excluded), regardless of how the dice fall. Sounds like a dream customer from the casino's perspective if you ask me.

Quote: debitncredit

...There's no vig in my local casino. How does vig work in Vegas?...

In the UK the usual odds on a place bet for 4 or 10 is 19/10 (usually expressed as 9.5/5) - this gives the house its edge. Similarly the other odds are 7/5 and 7/6. Don't odds also have their advantage (4/5 5/8 5/11). It would be fairly rare (especially now Gala has been taken over) so see true odds of 2/1 or 6/5, but I have seen them on party-like low-stakes tables.

In Vegas my understanding is rather than offering lower odds, the casino offers true odds but then takes a percentage (e.g. 5% of the winnings for a place bet). Thus $100 on the 4 might pay $200-$10 = $190. If I'm wrong someone will correct me - but the essence is the "vig" is a something either taken out the winnings or something extra you pay up front.

As to betting both sides, the trick is to have two friends - one plays A and the other plays {not-A} (e.g. Banker/Player, Pass/Don't, Red/Black). I know some people use this to obtain a 25p chip (for collecting) without risking much money. Obviously you can't do this too often, so one way is for both of you to switch round (say if a point of 4 is not made).

Quote: charliepatrick

In Vegas my understanding is rather than offering lower odds, the casino offers true odds but then takes a percentage (e.g. 5% of the winnings for a place bet). Thus $100 on the 4 might pay $200-$10 = $190. If I'm wrong someone will correct me - but the essence is the "vig" is a something either taken out the winnings or something extra you pay up front.

In Vegas, at least on the strip, the standard seems to be that, when buying the 4 and/or 10, you pay 5% of the bet amount on wins only. So $100 would pay $200-$5 = $195. This gives a house edge of 1.666...% on the bet.

Furthermore, many (most?) places will only charge $1 commission on a $25 bet and $2 commission on a $50 bet when buying the 4 and 10. This is only 4%. However they will charge 5% (rounded up) on any bet larger than that. As a result, if you bet exactly $25 or $50, the house edge is only 1.3333...%. Note that (ignoring the odds bet, which can't be made without making a -EV bet first), this is the lower than the edge of any other bet on the table, so if you just want to bet a green chip or two at a time (no more, no less) it's not a bad choice.

Quote: darthvader

FWIW, someone playing a doey don't system has absolutely no chance of winning money (odds bet excluded), regardless of how the dice fall. Sounds like a dream customer from the casino's perspective if you ask me.

You would absolutely think so! As the player has NO chance to win.
However, I would bet dollars to donuts that 99% of people who work in the casino (back office excluded) have zero idea of the math behind the games.
Hell, I'd take the same bet for College Educated casino employees.

Quote: charliepatrick

the trick is to have two friends - one plays A and the other plays {not-A}

IMO, that this cheats the casinos in any way is a delusion; and if you yourself play both sides, it's the same thing.

That's not to say the casino personnel might not also be deluded. But think about it. Suppose you and a true unknown-to-you stranger are the only ones at the Craps table, one playing darkside, one a right bettor, and both earning comps. Is the casino supposed to step in and stop it? No, not unless they are fools [they might be]. Each player has the same theoretical loss whether or not they play together, or at different times, or whatever. The fools are actually any thusly paired players [or a single doey-don'ter] working off the same bankroll and mirroring bets, guaranteeing that they will lose while simultaneously risking that the casino will yank or limit comps on a faulty basis.

Quote: charliepatrick

the trick is to have two friends - one plays A and the other plays {not-A} (e.g. Banker/Player, Pass/Don't, Red/Black)

Obviously you can't do this too often...

Why not?

How often should a 12 get rolled on a Come Out roll ?

If you are playing at a $10 min table, and playing the doey don't with NO other bets, as others have said, you can't win. BUT, if your primary goal is drinking, and the CW is coming around every 10 minutes or so, you can easily get down 6 or 7 drinks in an hour. So you could be playing a break even game.

Meanwhile, you're taking up space at a table where, if the tables are full, a real craps player may not be able to find a spot. This would be costing the casino potential profit, at least from a theo perspective.

And finally, if you are managing to drink that much, then you are probably starting to act like a drunk, which invariably slows the game down, and may, or may not, drive away other players who wished to gamble at increased levels. Once again the casino has potential loss of theo.

So, yes, even though the casino should love the 'guaranteed' loser playing the doey-don't, I think the impact to the casino for that guaranteed loss could be more than the player is worth.

Quote: RaleighCraps

How often should a 12 get rolled on a Come Out roll ?

Um, 1 in 36 times ... on average.

Quote: RaleighCraps

How often should a 12 get rolled on a Come Out roll ?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Um, 1 in 36 times ... on average.

Um, my post was on topic. Where is your question? ;-)

Quote: Mission146

the Buy 4/10 will be a horrible bet compared to a Line bet.

Ahigh would vehemently disagree with you. And so would I. He has explained that - with vig upon winning - you can drive down the HE to 1.00% 1.33% - lower than Pass Line. You must buy both 4/10 simultaneously, and exploit "breakage" using $25 bets, and take them both down upon a hit.

Quote: Mission146

Commission on a win only, then that is better than always paying the Commission

I'd certainly agree.

Quote: Mission146

but there is no circumstance in which either of those things are better than a line bet...again...with exception to a Buy bet with no vig whatsoever.

Wrong. Double wrong. That's not the only way it's better. See first comment.

if your on a table and people are making 6 & 8 or 5 & 9 for the pass line wins and no one has
hit a 4 or 10 in half an hour.... it is not a real good bet.

The mistake most people make is to think their betting patterns will control the table...poor
judgement.... the table has to control your betting patterns.

Now of the table reveals a normal or more than normal distribution of 4 & or 10 and the vig
is paid on the win..... I am on the 4 10 before the pass line.


dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

The mistake most people make is to think their betting patterns will control the table...

I certainly don't think that whatsoever.

Quote: dicesitter

the table has to control your betting patterns.

I certainly don't agree with that, whatsoever, either.

Any talk of "table temperature," "shooter temperature," "past patterns", etc....
Just makes me want to... PRIMAL SCREAM.